If Mohammed had sex with his 9 year old wife does that make him a pedophile?

gbee · 08-08-2010 10:03PM

How old was Mary the real Mother of God, Christ, Jesus?

I think she was 12.

Wibbs · 08-08-2010 10:04PM

Nodin wrote: »

Dominican Republic, Brazil, Colombia, El Salvador, Bolivia, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico, Ethiopia, Central African Republic, Cameroon all have rates of marriage where Brides under 18 comprise 25% or more of the annual total. The 25% cut off was purely to save me typing up more.

Again you're running in ever decreasing circles. Lets take Brazil. The legal age for marriage is 18. People over 16 may get married with the permission of parents or legal representation. http://www.helplinelaw.com/article/brazil/29 Paraguay again a minimum of 16 with permission as above http://genderindex.org/country/paraguay Ethiopia age raised to 18 to stamp out child marriages in the culture(the majority of which were of equal youth) http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/cross-cutting_programs/wid/dg/child_marriage_ethiopia.html Central african republic 15 for girls but again only with parental permission or legal clearance.

Cameroon you say? Bit of a sticky wicket for your argument. The legal age is 15 for girls, but that law is flouted in the northern areas. http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/cross-cutting_programs/wid/dg/child_marriage_ethiopia.html Oh and guess what religious demographic they belong to? You guessed it and it aint Buddhist. So you're trying to hide behind a blind stat that says a quarter of marriages in these countries are under 18. They're not 9 though are they? And in one of your cases where the laws are flouted and it is much younger girls it's predominantly Muslims doing so. So lets try again shall we?

Again I say show me any christian state where a marriage age of 9 to much older men is considered legal, moral and backed by some members of government and the clergy of that country. I'll give you hint Nodin, there aren't any.

It's odd - I ask for precision, get taken to task for it, and - by way of illustration - give a fairly straightforward example of why I object, and then you demand from me the same precision I ask from others (in all seriousness) due to my illustration.

Well as I've illustrated myself on your last post, your "precision" is a matter for some debate. Hey I admire you're cultural equivalence and defence of same and many years ago you would have found me much more on your side, but as the years pass I find myslef agreeing with Churchill on this point “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”.

Wibbs · 08-08-2010 10:16PM

gbee wrote: »

How old was Mary the real Mother of God, Christ, Jesus?

I think she was 12.

Actually the earliest writings still extant, the gospels give little or no detail about her or her age. Much of what comes down to us is much later. As his devotion to her in the catholic sense. It would not surprise me however if she was 12. In earlier Judaism child brides were not uncommon and allowed for in Talmudic law. To much older men too. The Islamic branch of Abrahamism just carried on that particular cultural practice. As did Christianity, though slightly less so with the influence of Rome as the legal marriage age for women was 14. They could be betrothed before that age, but not married and consummated.

dharma protector · 08-08-2010 10:23PM

Gbee

on the subject of mary being 12

I never claim to know this information, what went on in the hjoly land and arabia at the time left very little verifiable historial information.

What religions claim for themselves is what i use to evaulate them

If she was that is what is called a

COLD COMFORT

for beliving Muslims

While it is bad for christains to believe she married Joseph at 12 it still begs the questions for Muslims

basically it amounts to this,

" We believe our holy prophet had sex with a 9 yr old girl but that ok other faiths once belived in marraige for young 12 yr olds"

If that help one sleep better and feel better about ones faith then I really don't know what to say.

Anyway, Joesph is not an example of perfect human behaviour for Christians for all times and all places.

actually it is worse that that. When christians ask " What would Christ Do" they dont have to say to themselves, something like the following

"well he would have married a 9 yr old so i suppose it will be ok for old Mr Ahmed up the road" good eneough for Jesus, good eneough for any of us."

Mohammad is the perfect human example for all times and all places.

Again, it is A COLD COLD COMFORT if you want to take refuge in it

Nodin · 08-08-2010 10:25PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Again you're (.......) So lets try again shall we?

I'd say take it up with UNICEF
http://www.childinfo.org/marriage_countrydata.php

Wibbs wrote: »

Again I say show me any christian state where a marriage age of 9 to much older men is considered legal, moral and backed by some members of government and the clergy of that country. I'll give you hint Nodin, there aren't any..”.

I said "child marriage". I never said anything about the age of 9. I note you're being far more precise in laying out what you're on about as we go on. I have to rate that as a success.....

Wibbs wrote: »

Hey I admire you're cultural equivalence and defence of same and many years ago you would have found me much more on your side, but as the years pass I find myslef agreeing with Churchill on this point “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”.

...but alas reading comprehension seems to need work. I've merely pointed out the use of loose language here. You seem to need to defend it, for reasons that escape me.

Nodin · 08-08-2010 10:28PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

'sigh'

What is your point? Do you have one?

I suggest you read the post that you are continuously going on about, then read it again. Then try to understand the point I was making was, 'The reason that Islamic countrys allow 9 year olds marry old men is (now wait for it) because mohammed is the most perfect example of a muslim. Therefore anything mohammed did is ok by isamic teaching.'

And if you put the word "some" in there, or "many", or "most" or "a lot of", there'd be little or no argument from me.

dharma protector · 08-08-2010 10:28PM

Wibbs

I am enjoying your posts

nothing like a fact turned up with a little forensic spadework. Keep it up

Terry · 08-08-2010 10:54PM

Nodin wrote: »

I'd say take it up with UNICEF
http://www.childinfo.org/marriage_countrydata.php

Chad comes in at 71.5%. The majority of people in Chad are Muslim (53.1%).

So aside from pointing out data which shows that the largest percentage of brides under the age of 18, on record by Unicef, live in a country where over half the population are Muslim, what's your point?

There is nothing at all on that page pointing to 9 year old brides. Or 13 or 14. It just says under 18. They could all have been 17 for all we know.

Wibbs · 09-08-2010 12:04AM

Nodin wrote: »

I'd say take it up with UNICEF
http://www.childinfo.org/marriage_countrydata.php

Yep you should. Unlike you it seems I actually read others links. I don't assume a position and stick to it like glue in ever decreasing circles.

I said "child marriage". I never said anything about the age of 9. I note you're being far more precise in laying out what you're on about as we go on. I have to rate that as a success.....

Again your definition of "success" may need some work. Your posts may pass for reasoned debate in some quarters, they don't fly with those willing to actually read them or read your links. If you cant see the difference between a 9 year old and a 16 year old being married well then your definition of "precise" may need some work too.

...but alas reading comprehension seems to need work. I've merely pointed out the use of loose language here. You seem to need to defend it, for reasons that escape me.

Mr Pot, Have you met Mr Kettle? Lovely chap, you may get on. So lets be precise. A 16 year old girl, while not nearly an adult, is a lightyear away from a 9 year old. To suggest otherwise is defending the indefensible, which you seem intent on doing in your quest for moral and cultural relativism for its own sake.

Your last post on this was typically disingenuous when it came to defending your point. ":eek: 25% of x countries were under 18 marriages". Yea, doesnt exactly bear actual scrutiny though does it Ted. A world away from Yemen, SA, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran et al. Not forgetting your example of Cameroon, well it did go a bit askew for your argument regarding the predominantly Muslim parts. And lets look at Malaysia. The country you noted where Islam wasnt spread by the sword. They seem happy enough to allow child brides there too. And they've zero historical cultural affinity with Arabia or its customs, so again what's the common denominator? http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Malacca,-marriage-for-girls-under-16-to-cover-underage-pregnancies-19134.html So at this stage you claim you can't see the obvious link? Even through the smoke and mirrors of cultural relativism? Like I said previously, try again.

The joke is I don't agree with the OP's thread title. I don't think Muhammad was a paedophile. Indeed I have suggested more than once that this tradition can only be pinned down to 3 centuries after his death and merely ascribed to him. Though this ascription does hold sway and influence in mainstream Islam as it is one of the most respected Hadith conveyors. Ironically I appear to have more cultural and historical relativism than you do.

Nodin · 09-08-2010 11:15AM

Terry wrote: »

Chad comes in at 71.5%. The majority of people in Chad are Muslim (53.1%).

So aside from pointing out data which shows that the largest percentage of brides under the age of 18, on record by Unicef, live in a country where over half the population are Muslim, what's your point?

There is nothing at all on that page pointing to 9 year old brides. Or 13 or 14. It just says under 18. They could all have been 17 for all we know.

You evidently haven't been following the discussion.

wes · 09-08-2010 11:21AM

dharma protector wrote: »

Again, it is A COLD COLD COMFORT if you want to take refuge in it

Well, no not really:

http://www.mfsd.org/msdannex.htm

Various different Muslim countries, and a several with different Marriage ages based on Sharia law (from the various Schools of Taught). So, there really is no concensus from what I can see.

Btw, that isn't a comprehensive list, but it is interesting.

Nodin · 09-08-2010 11:21AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep you should. Unlike you it seems I actually read others links. I don't assume a position and stick to it like glue in ever decreasing circles.

Again your definition of "success" may need some work. Your posts may pass for reasoned debate in some quarters, they don't fly with those willing to actually read them or read your links. If you cant see the difference between a 9 year old and a 16 year old being married well then your definition of "precise" may need some work too. .

I never mentioned 9 year olds once. I made an example of the use of loose language. You're now castigating me for using the same vague waffle (purely as an example) that you seek to defend.

Wibbs wrote: »

Mr Pot, Have you met Mr Kettle? Lovely chap, you may get on. So lets be precise. A 16 year old girl, while not nearly an adult, is a lightyear away from a 9 year old. To suggest otherwise is defending the indefensible, which you seem intent on doing in your quest for moral and cultural relativism for its own sake.
.

Actually, if you can find me defending child marriage, or marriage to pre-pubescents specifically, I'd like to see it.

Wibbs wrote: »

Your last post on this was typically disingenuous when it came to defending your point. ":eek: 25% of x countries were under 18 marriages". Yea, doesnt exactly bear actual scrutiny though does it Ted. A world away from Yemen, SA, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran et al. Not forgetting your example of Cameroon, well it did go a bit askew for your argument regarding the predominantly Muslim parts. And lets look at Malaysia. The country you noted where Islam wasnt spread by the sword. They seem happy enough to allow child brides there too. And they've zero historical cultural affinity with Arabia or its customs, so again what's the common denominator? http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Malacca,-marriage-for-girls-under-16-to-cover-underage-pregnancies-19134.html So at this stage you claim you can't see the obvious link? Even through the smoke and mirrors of cultural relativism? Like I said previously, try again. .

So when I use over generalised language (purely for illustration) its wrong, but when somebody else does, it ok.....Hmmmmmm

I have barely touched on any issues with regards to "cultural relativism" either. You seem to be arguing with somebody else there.........

Terry · 09-08-2010 11:39AM

Nodin wrote: »

You evidently haven't been following the discussion.

Actually I have.
Your arguement was one of deferring focus on Islamic countries (which you became quite pedantic over, but I believe you know exactly what the term Islamic countries means) to that of Christian countries, which may have practices which include child marraige. However, you have not yet provided any substantial proof of this.

You then provided a link to a page which contained a list of countries showing how many people in these places get married while they are under 18.
I pointed out that the country with the largest percentage of under 18 marraiges was a predominantly Muslim country, and asked what the point was on showing us something we already knew. That many Muslims do indeed get married before they are 18.

That being said, you can get married here at 16 if you have parental consent, so Ireland would be a place where under 18s get married.
That wasn't the point of this discussion though. The point is that Islam condones the practice of child brides. Which it does.

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 11:53AM

Hi Wes

you wrote

Various different Muslim countries, and a several with different Marriage ages based on Sharia law (from the various Schools of Taught). So, there really is no concensus from what I can see.

Btw, that isn't a comprehensive list, but it is interesting.

2 seperate points

(1)I just don't get that logic

Yes it would be a cold comfort to believe another faiths holy figure ( joesph, not very important for christians and has not real bearing on how they are supposed to behave) had sex with a 12 year old if you believe that your holy prohphet had sex with a nine year old.

It is the same cold comfort to say, so what if my dad is an alcoholic, so is yours. !!!!!!!

Get it

Second point ( i think you missed my last 7 posts or so). the reason for the various ages in different countries with majority Muslim popululations is because they mix Shariah and secular law. Shariah when it is unfettered with any other legal sysyem will accept as valid the marraige of a 9 yr old girl to a much older man based on the perfect example of Mohammad as the perfect role model for all peoples and all places..When countries accept Shariah and shariah alone the age is 9. Even in countries that mix secular law, it can in practice in be ignored if the people choose to follow Shariah. The authorities can be lax in enfocing the secular law to varying degrees.

To be fair to you, i don't think you have been keeping up with the debate here recently, have a look at my recent posts, I have spelled it out very clearly.

Please now before replying, take a look at what i wrote, I genuinely belive it to be informative.

respectfully
DP

wes · 09-08-2010 11:58AM

dharma protector wrote: »

Second point ( i think you missed my last 7 posts or so). the reason for the various ages in different countries with majority Muslim popululations is because they mix Shariah and secular law.

Yes, they do, and if you look at my list, it even tells which countries do exactly that, and which don't, and give details on each country in that regard. I take it you only gave the list a quick look...

**EDIT**
I accept your other point, as I clearly mis-understood some of you post.

Wibbs · 09-08-2010 12:00PM

Nodin wrote: »

I never mentioned 9 year olds once. I made an example of the use of loose language. You're now castigating me for using the same vague waffle (purely as an example) that you seek to defend.

I'm not defending such posts. I've repeatedly said I don't believe its seen as child abuse. Nor was it thought that way as far as the Hadith were concerned. I have posted links that show clearly that this is a practice found in Islamic countries and the more religious the more its found.

Actually, if you can find me defending child marriage, or marriage to pre-pubescents specifically, I'd like to see it.

You're not, but you are glossing over the fact that it's a more Islamic religious practice than not.

So when I use over generalised language (purely for illustration) its wrong, but when somebody else does, it ok.....Hmmmmmm

Purely for illustration eh? Being disingenuous yet again. I quote "Dominican Republic, Brazil, Colombia, El Salvador, Bolivia, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico, Ethiopia, Central African Republic, Cameroon all have rates of marriage where Brides under 18 comprise 25% or more of the annual total. The 25% cut off was purely to save me typing up more." In my opinion it was more purely as a way to make the casual reader assume that marrying off 12 year olds is not just an issue with Islamic countries.

I have barely touched on any issues with regards to "cultural relativism" either. You seem to be arguing with somebody else there.........

I suspect this is a lot of your angle though.

Wes wrote:

Well, no not really:

http://www.mfsd.org/msdannex.htm

Various different Muslim countries, and a several with different Marriage ages based on Sharia law (from the various Schools of Taught). So, there really is no concensus from what I can see.

Btw, that isn't a comprehensive list, but it is interesting.

That's actually a good site that Ive read before and the more the merrier on that front.

The problem with a lot of those countries and their laws are the get out clauses open to the judiciary as far as marriages under the official marriage age is concerned. The conservative religious will and are kicking back against such interference as they see it in their view of the faith. Fair play to the governments for trying though. Like Ive said all along the more secular the state the less this happens.

wes · 09-08-2010 12:06PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The problem with a lot of those countries and their laws are the get out clauses open to the judiciary as far as marriages under the official marriage age is concerned. The conservative religious will and are kicking back against such interference as they see it in their view of the faith. Fair play to the governments for trying though. Like Ive said all along the more secular the state the less this happens.

True enough, there are get out clauses, to satisfy conservatives, but over time this sort of thing will change. Remember in some of these countries, the government has no writ over large area's.

Some of those laws btw are Sharia, and family law in Muslim majority countries tend to be based on Sharia, and I was just pointing out that there really is no consensus on the age of consent, if you look at the list, some countries who come from both the same sect and school of taught, even list different ages.

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 12:22PM

Nodin

I said I would not engage you again and I have to admit I am loathe to do so. But i feel that you have learned nothing from my engagement with you by readaing what you are writing to the others. Perhaps that is true, but just so I can confirm it totally, could you clear up something for me, one last time

Without getting semantic pedantic again could you clear up a very simple question for everybody and then perhaps you could go elsewhere and have semantic pedantic debates with other people.

Do you now accept the following statement.

Mainstream Islam through the Shariah will accept the ligitimacy of a marraige of a 9 yr old female to a much older mature man based on the example of Mohammad because he is considered the perfect example for all peoples and for all times.

You can answer

YES
NO
I don't know, I did not investiagte it myself to find out.

Are you able to do this without going of on a tangent. I don't want a debate over what constitutes an Islamic country and surfice to say your true feeling are very evident. I douubt very much you would have engaged in a debate over what constitutes an Islamic country if the statement had been

I love the artitecture in Islamic countries
or
Islamic countries have very interesting art and history

any more than the term buddhist countries or latin countries woulkd bother you, you took it up because to deflect attention from the main point of this thread, becuase you felt we must be big horrible bigots to assert this detail about what mainstream Islam belives and ditates through Shariah. You must have believed it could not have been true or perhaps that Christianity was equal in this particular aspect.

ANYWAY, WILL YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION AND PUT US ALL OUT OF OUR MISERY, ANY ONE OF THE 3 CHOICES WILL DO. THEN YOU AND i AND EVERYBODY ELSE CAN MOVE ON, KNOWING WHERE WE STAND.

DON'T WANT A DEBATE OR A POLITICIANS ANSWER, STRAIGHT QUESTION, STRAIGHT ANSWER.

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 12:40PM

Hi wes

Thanks for your reply and acceptance of a point

, i wish nodin could swallow his pride and ego and do so.

I did take a look through the whole link, not today when you linked me to it but I have seen it before. It does not change the fact that Mainsteam Islam of all schools, accepts as legitimate that Momammad married and had sex with a 9 yr ols. That is what this thread is all about. Countries will mix secular and shariah, and even different shariah schools will go about thrie work in differenty ways Some will agree it is 9 some will say 13 but agree 9 is also valid, or 15 but 9 is also vaid, or 12 and 9 is also valid, when handing down judgements. this is why 9 remains on the books in all countries that claim to follow Shariah alone.

I don't know if he did or not, I accept that the man probbaly exsisted with little doubt but what he actually got up to lacks independent historical verification outside Islamic sources.
I just wanted to point out what mainstream Islam belives and ditates on this issue.

I am not saying this, Islam is. If anyone has a problem with it, take it up with Islam

Thanks for your post, I don't think we are basically singing of the same hymm sheet in the heel of the hunt.

respectfully DP

Wibbs · 09-08-2010 12:46PM

wes wrote: »

True enough, there are get out clauses, to satisfy conservatives, but over time this sort of thing will change. Remember in some of these countries, the government has no writ over large area's.

True enough. And with the rise of the Islamic right wing in the last 20 years I dont envy them the task.

wes · 09-08-2010 12:50PM

dharma protector wrote: »

I did take a look through the whole link, not today when you linked me to it but I have seen it before. It does not change the fact that Mainsteam Islam of all schools, accepts as legitimate that Momammad married and had sex with a 9 yr ols. That is what this thread is all about.

Countries will mix secular and shariah, and even different shariah schools will go about thrie work in differenty ways Some will agree it is 9 some will say 13 but agree 9 is also valid, or 15 but 9 is also vaid, or 12 and 9 is also valid, when handing down judgements. this is why 9 remains on the books in all countries that claim to follow Shariah alone.

Sorry, but the above is a very confused arguement, and you seem to be disagreeing with your own earlier point. Again, yes there is a mix of secular and sharia in some countries, but family law tends to be Sharia in those same countries. Other countries, which have mostly Sharia law, do have even lower ages, but that doesn't really make there Sharia anymore valid than the other one.

dharma protector wrote: »

I don't know if he did or not, I accept that the man probbaly exsisted with little doubt but what he actually got up to lacks independent historical verification outside Islamic sources.
I just wanted to point out what mainstream Islam belives and ditates on this issue.

I am not saying this, Islam is. If anyone has a problem with it, take it up with Islam

Thanks for your post, I don't think we are basically singing of the same hymm sheet in the heel of the hunt.

respectfully DP

Well, I am sorry but what is main stream Islam? There are multiple difference and interpretations from what I can see, as per the various ages of consent in countries, which have Sharia law for family law.

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 01:35PM

Hi Wes

I am sorry you have come late to the debate here but you are going over some very old territory that I put to bed earlier.

You will have to read my old texts, they are mostly replys to others, in fact all are replys to others so you will have to read those also.

It is all there, Mainstream Islam, how countries mix shariah and secular etc

But I will give you a Shorthand for now

Mainstream Islam ( the vast bulk of the worlds Muslim population that accepts as valid the fatwa of Al Anzar university in Cario, the oxbridge of Islam. This is as close as one can get to a vatican type thing. ( now remember this is only a shorthand so plesae don't go picking over it) put another way not the Taliban or at the other extreme the Ahmadiyaa ( they are not recognised as Muslim by other Muslims) but the mosque at the end of your street in a typical Islamic place or any place for that matter.

Mainstream Islamic Shariah pemits the marraige of a 9 yr old to a much older man based on Mohammads example as the role moded for humanity in all times and all places.

Yes in Iran they will not let a girl of 9 marry ( without parental consent) but it reamins part of the Shariah, that it can happen if the father agrees. Can you imagine what this means for paedophile fathers arganising clild porn rings ( I can only imagine because they are not going to be brought to court for it)

When Shariah is the family law in a state that mixs shariah and secular law, they have simply allowed the secular law to take over when it comes to the lower age limit of marraige in that one instance, but that does not change the fact that Mainstram Islamic Shariah law of all schools accepts the principle because Mohammad did it. Where Shariah holds sway alone 9 is the minimum age ( with parental consent, how liberal and child protecting). They don't much like this aspect of shariah themselves I guess butr they are stuck with it unless they want to start questioning huge tracts of mainstream traditional Islam, like the admadiyya did ( see where that got them)

Get it

Now I am sorry for the shorthand but i have not the will to retype all my earlier stuff. You will have to take look and see what i was answeing. I like to think it is logical. I have to get back to real life for a bit now.

respectfully
DP

Nodin · 09-08-2010 01:40PM

Terry wrote: »

Actually I have.
Your arguement was one of deferring focus on Islamic countries (which you became quite pedantic over, (.....) countries,

No, I object to the generalisation used, as should be blatantly clear from Post 277. The "christian" thing was explicilty given as a similar use of inaccurate language.

Wibbs wrote:

. I've repeatedly said I don't believe its seen as child abuse. Nor was it thought that way as far as the Hadith were concerned. I have posted links that show clearly that this is a practice found in Islamic countries and the more religious the more its found.

....but I don't care what you stated, because my argument for the last few pages is with "This is why 9 is the age a girl can be married off in Islamic countrys." which wasn't even posted by you. I think its too general, and far too loosely phrased.

Wibbs wrote:

In my opinion it was more purely as a way to make the casual reader assume that marrying off 12 year olds is not just an issue with Islamic countries

It isn't confined to Islamic countries, no, though its not that widespread. The site I linked doesn't go into specific ages however.

wes · 09-08-2010 01:42PM

dharma protector wrote: »

Get it

Now I am sorry for the shorthand but i have not the will to retype all my earlier stuff. You will have to take look and see what i was answeing. I like to think it is logical. I have to get back to real life for a bit now.

Sorry, but again I have read those other posts, and I simply disagree with them. Al Azhnar is important, but then so is the Diyanet in Turkey, and so is the Dar Ul Loom in India. You are over estimating the Al Azhnar, which while important is not the be all and end all of Islamic judisprudence.

Secondly, the family laws in those countries are Sharia, and even gave a list of countries with those laws. Them having secular laws elsewhere, does not mean there family law is not Sharia. Sorry, but what your saying is simple factually incorrect, from all the information I have avaliable, and the information I presented comes from a good source on the matter.

I am simply go to have to agree to disagree with you on this.

Nodin · 09-08-2010 01:45PM

dharma protector wrote: »

Mainstream Islam ( the vast bulk of the worlds Muslim population that accepts as valid the fatwa of Al Anzar university in Cario, the oxbridge of Islam. This is as close as one can get to a vatican type thing. ( now remember this is only a shorthand so plesae don't go picking over it) put another way not the Taliban or at the other extreme the Ahmadiyaa ( they are not recognised as Muslim by other Muslims) but the mosque at the end of your street in a typical Islamic place or any place for that matter.

Mainstream Islamic Shariah pemits the marraige of a 9 yr old to a much older man based on Mohammads example as the role moded for humanity in all times and all places.

Yes in Iran they will not let a girl of 9 marry ( without parental consent) but it reamins part of the Shariah, that it can happen if the father agrees. Can you imagine what this means for paedophile fathers arganising clild porn rings ( I can only imagine because they are not going to be brought to court for it)

|So you're hopping from Sunni Islam to Shia Islam and still talking about "mainstream".....?

I believe Wes makes a good point.

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 02:10PM

Wes first ( then Nodin )

I did say it was a shorthand. nothing is any of the other schools or universitys goes against Al Zar on this issue. Look wes, you sound like a ok fella, go and check this for youself. I would suggeest you find a full compendium of Sharih law rather than web sites. I think trinty has one, not sure about UCD. I did my reseach in the Uk many years ok. websites are only so useful and will supply reseach, academic opinion, as much as the actual law, and many confuse these. I am not making it up. I would much rather say it was not true. Those countries actualyy do ignore Shariah female marraige age in their shariah family law, and replace that section with the secular version. they can do this because the secular is alreday part of their system and most people are happy to let the issue drop neatly in that manner.

Why else is the age 9 when shariah is the only law ?

Come on man, think about it, is the logic of that last statement not telling you anything.

Nodin

There is not difference bewtween Mainstram Sunni and Shia on this issue. In saudi it is 9 (Sunni) in Iran (shia) it is 9.

HAVE YOU ANSWERED THAT QUESTION YET. or waiting for another distraction. I will answer that mysef, you are waiting for another distraction.

wes · 09-08-2010 02:21PM

dharma protector wrote: »

I did say it was a shorthand. nothing is any of the other schools or universitys goes against Al Zar on this issue. Look wes, you sound like a ok fella, go and check this for youself. I would suggeest you find a full compendium of Sharih law rather than web sites. I think trinty has one, not sure about UCD. I did my reseach in the Uk many years ok. websites are only so useful and will supply reseach, academic opinion, as much as the actual law, and many confuse these. I am not making it up. I would much rather say it was not true. Those countries actualyy do ignore Shariah female marraige age in their shariah family law, and replace that section with the secular version. they can do this because the secular is alreday part of their system and most people are happy to let the issue drop neatly in that manner.

Why else is the age 9 when shariah is the only law ?

Come on man, think about it, is the logic of that last statement not telling you anything.

Sorry, but again you are claiming one Sharia is more authentic than other, or that isn't really Sharia, which I simply disagree, and the web site I linked lists actual laws from those countries, and I have no reason to doubt them as a source, and they clearly define with each of there examples, which is and isn't Sharia based. I am also aware that in some of those countries, they have Islamic scholars, whom won't allow laws that are contrary to Islam. It seems clear to me that there is a difference in interpretation between these various types of Sharia.

dharma protector wrote: »

Why else is the age 9 when shariah is the only law ?

Come on man, think about it, is the logic of that last statement not telling you anything.

Well, the answer is simple, they clearly have a different interpretation, than other countries.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I am not convinced by your arguments, and both of us are just repeating ourselves. I am going to agree to disagree here, but I see no reason to restate the exact same things again.

Terry · 09-08-2010 06:48PM

Nodin wrote: »

No, I object to the generalisation used, as should be blatantly clear from Post 277. The "christian" thing was explicilty given as a similar use of inaccurate language.

Would I be wrong in saying that you knew exactly what I was referring to?
Why would you object to this?
Can you answer any of my questions without saying something like well it happens in <x country> too or Well it used to happen in <x country>?

Here are some countries with high Muslim populations and high incidences of Sharia law, both at state level and at family level.
Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Lebanon.

Islamic law permits child brides in these countries. Child brides being young girls who have reached puberty.
This may happen between the ages of 8 and 14.
Do you condone this in today's world?

Can you justify the following incidences?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/lawyer-9-year-old-saudi-girl-divorces-50-year-old-husband-1.275103 (Not the divorce, but the fact that the marriage occurred in the first place).
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/03/11/13201531.html
http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=79487
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/feb/22/ukcrime.gender (in direct violation of the laws of the land)

I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

It isn't confined to Islamic countries, no, though its not that widespread. The site I linked doesn't go into specific ages however.

So it's ok for you to use the term "Islamic countries", but you take exception to it when I use it.
Why is that?

dharma protector · 09-08-2010 07:25PM

Hi wes

You wrote

Sorry, but again you are claiming one Sharia is more authentic than other, or that isn't really Sharia, which I simply disagree, and the web site I linked lists actual laws from those countries, and I have no reason to doubt them as a source, and they clearly define with each of there examples, which is and isn't Sharia based. I am also aware that in some of those countries, they have Islamic scholars, whom won't allow laws that are contrary to Islam. It seems clear to me that there is a difference in interpretation between these various types of Sharia.

Wes, I want to express my gratitude to you for at least engaging in a direct and logical manner ( that is not true for everybody here) they either disapear when faced with facts or go semantic pedantic over some minor non central issue nd then snipe from the sidelines in an completly obvious effort to evade the central issue.

Your logic is fine, however it is your knowledge that is lacking here( that is in no way an insult to you, there are many things in this world I lack knowledge on and I am sure there are plenty of ares of life you could school me in) let me enlighten you.

What I write below is accepted by any educated Muslim who has knowledge of his faith. I am not making it up to suit me.

Shariah is normally translated as Islamic law. It is however, not law but a set of regulations, principles and values from which legislation and law are drawn. While the Shariah is eternal, Islamic law like all law can evolve and change and grow as the Muslim situation changes ( subject to the limitations of the Shariah of course.

The Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali and Jaferi are not the shariah ( although in common language they are referred to as Shariah schools) they are the schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

They do indeed have different interpretation from each other ( they all agree they do and would not exsist otherwise)

They all draw from Shariah and while the can come up with practical ways to implement it , they are not free to go against its principles.

You as a jurist of one of these schools may decide the best way for your particular society to function in modern times is to pass a law making a min marraige age of 15, but you can never go aginst the principal that a man has the right to marry a 9 yeras old girl ( with her fathers permission of course) even though that principal may not at this time be exercised.

It is a little like in our legal system winning a case in principle but nothing changes, as it cannot be put into effect.

this is Because Mohammad married and had sex with a 9 yr old girl according to the souces most accepted by Shariah

Now i am on my own again with the next bit

I believe that it is no accident, that it is the countries that do not have to take account of modern life, human rights and outside influence that can make law with whatever school of jurispudence they have that most closely follow to the Shariah. Saudi and Iran

This is why these kinds of countries allow 9 yrs old marraige, not because they have different systems. How else can you explain how a Sunni and Shai country came up with the same age. How else can you explain that a Hanbali school came up with the same age as a Jaferi.

If could be coincidence but the odds would make the mind boggle. To you really still think they just happen to have different interpretations than other countries., at random

Anway, the central point of this whole thread( again for the # time) is trying to establish was Mohammad a paodophile by having sex with a 9 year old and did he in fact do that.

I have never claimed to know, I deal in facts, I don't have the facts about this. I only know what mainstrream Islam has to say on the issue and what it belives and ditates on the issue.

Lastly, it is hard to get a full compendium of all the schools together, that is why i suggested trinty ( i think they just might). Websites will only get you so far. I know that is a hard line to accept over a web page, But please, plesae, don't just believe me, go find out for yourself. No blind faith required by me.

Respectfully
DP

PS. please don't reject what i am saying because it sounds to bad to be true. I am sure is it hard to believe, like just being told that buddhism practices child ritual murder. The difference is that, if you dig long eneough the eveidence just keeps mounting one way, They don't, but Islam believes and ditates what I have siad about Mohammad. Dig and you will find the eveidence. For all know he could have been a plumber that loved old really fat chinese women

but that not what Islam says.

Over to you ( but yes we can agree to disagree if you like) my fingers are getting sore

Nodin ( still waiting for another distraction eh, to get a cheap shot off.) Wes may disagree with me but he still reasons fair and square and to the point.

wes · 09-08-2010 07:36PM

dharma protector wrote: »

Over to you ( but yes we can agree to disagree if you like) my fingers are getting sore

As I said earlier, there is no point in this, as we are both repeating ourselves, or what was said earlier. I am well aware of everything you say (even if some of what you is confused, as Sharia is derived from the Koran and the Hadith, and Fiqh is for stuff not directly mentioned in there), but again I disagree with your conclusions, and would just be repeating myself.

If Mohammed had sex with his 9 year old wife does that make him a pedophile?

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