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If Mohammed had sex with his 9 year old wife does that make him a pedophile?

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  • #242
    seawolf145
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭seawolf145


    The Highwayman wrote: »
    Times change as they say but a 53 year old man and a 9 year old girl can't be right in any era can it?

    No it makes him a sick ****icon8.gif


  • #243
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    deravarra wrote: »
    Do you know what the "other evidence" is?
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

    Please have a read of that.

    Why are you attempting to deny what the majority of muslims believe to be true? (Please read that link I gave you)

    You can't simply choose to ignore what your prophet did and say that muslims today would never do such a thing. That's completely irrelevant.


  • #244
    deravarra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭deravarra


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

    Please have a read of that.

    Why are you attempting to deny what the majority of muslims believe to be true? (Please read that link I gave you)

    You can't simply choose to ignore what your prophet did and say that muslims today would never do such a thing. That's completely irrelevant.


    are you for real? This is what you call evidence?

    You post a link from a website which is so islamophobic which uses the type of "logic" that would make Josef Mengele appear to be a doctor on a humanitarian mission.

    Now, feel free to point out the other evidence. Tell me what your evidence is, please, and dont bother posting links to crap like the one you just did


  • #245
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    deravarra wrote: »
    are you for real? This is what you call evidence?

    You post a link from a website which is so islamophobic which uses the type of "logic" that would make Josef Mengele appear to be a doctor on a humanitarian mission.

    Now, feel free to point out the other evidence. Tell me what your evidence is, please, and dont bother posting links to crap like the one you just did
    I recommend you actually read it before dismissing it as illogical crap...

    What is your evidence to prove she was 19?


  • #246
    deravarra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭deravarra


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I recommend you actually read it before dismissing it as illogical crap...

    What is your evidence to prove she was 19?

    I am FULLY aware of what crap THAT website comes out with. I wouldnt waste any part of my life reading it tbh.

    I'll get to the evidence that she was older than what you claim, but I'll need to go hunt for it in my notes.

    brb


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  • #247
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Nodin wrote: »
    None of which I'd bother disputing and none of which - again - makes any difference whatsoever to the statement.
    Eh it kinda does. As he points out the more "Islamic" a Muslim state is the more likely they are to allow a very young marriage age for girls. Whst I'd like to see and it may be informative is are there differences in the marriage age for boys in those cultures that allow it for younger girls?
    deravarra wrote: »
    Yes, IT IS all in the title - and it's been explained that Muslim scholars believe that Mohammed did not have sex with a "9 year old wife" - as Aisha was more than that age when she married him.
    No some scholars do. A particular subset of scholars. Ones who follow the Hadith would not nearly so much.
    deravarra wrote: »
    What "available evidence" would that be?
    The muslim and bukhari Hadith(and others but they're the ones most considered reliable).
    BlaasForRafa wrote:
    Mohammed does appear to have been a pedophile.
    This is where I differ. All I personally can be sure of is that at the time of Bukhari committing these stories to paper, the notion of childbrides it self and Muhammad being married to one was considered perfectly acceptable to him and his audience. That was nigh on 300 years later though, so is a very tenuous to link that practice with practices from the time of Muhammad. A lot can change culturally in 300 years. 300 years ago in europe child brides were common enough.

    Secondly even if he had married what we would consider a "child bride" it was a cultural difference, borne of ignorance and a cultural practice that Europeans and other cultures also went along with.

    Thirdly, to fall into this cultural practice would not mean Muhammad was a paedophile. The culture would have made it easier to hide if one was, but as has been pointed out his other wives werent as young so it doesnt look like a preference. In our eyes he was one, but in his eyes and those of a culture that practiced this he would most certainly not have been one, in intent or deed.

    He and his fellows were also slave owners(and slavers). To us that practice would be appalling and to the vast majority of Muslims it would be too. It was the nature of the times. This for me negates much of Islam as a faith for all time, certainly in it's hadith inclusive form. But he wasnt a kiddie fiddler.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #248
    deravarra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,952 ✭✭✭deravarra


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I recommend you actually read it before dismissing it as illogical crap...

    What is your evidence to prove she was 19?

    Sorry for the delay, but here it is:

    Scholars accept that Aisha was born 8 years before the Hijra 622 AD - therefore her birth year was 614 AD

    In a passage in Sahih Al Bukhari, Aisha is reported to have said that at the time that Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (the 54th chapter of the Qur'an) "I was a young girl".
    This Surah Al-Qamar was revealed nine years before the Hijrah. So, according to that tradition Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of that Surah, but was a young girl (jariyah), and not an infant (sibyah) at that time.

    According to a number of narratives, Aisha accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. The hadith and other books report that nobody under the age of 15 was allowed to take place in the battle of Uhud. Anyone under the age of 15 was sent back. Her participation in the battles of Badr and Uhud indicate she was not nine or ten at his time.
    According to almost all historians, Asma, the elder sister of Aisha was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 Hijrah when she was 100 years old.
    Now, if Asma was 100 years old i 73 Hijrah, she must have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah. If she was 27 or 28 at this time, then Aisha was 17 or 18 years old at that time.

    Thus, if Aisha got married in 1AH (623 AD) or 2AH, she would have been between 18 and 20 years old at the time.

    Tabari states in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period.
    If Aisha was born in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1AH, the time she most likely got married.

    According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Aisha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab. This shows that Aisha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam.
    If the narrative of Aisha's marriage at seven is held to be true, Aisha would not have been born during the first year of Islam.

    According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Aisha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when the prophet was 35 years old. So if you take this information, Aisha could be no less than 14 at the time of Hijrah, and 15 or 16 at the time of her marriage.


    All the above - multiple sources - have shown that Aisha could not have been anywhere near 6 to 9 years of age at marriage,
    so where did the narrations come from?

    These narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn 'urwah reporting on the authority of his father.
    It is quite strange that nobody else from Medinah, where Hisham ibn 'urwah lived the first 71 years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas.

    All the narratives of Aisha being 6 at marriage have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have moved to after living in Medinah for 71 years.

    Tehzibu'l-tehzib had written one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the prophet.
    What did he say about Hisham's narrations?
    According to Yaqub ibn Shaibah, he said "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable .. EXCEPT THOSE THAT ARE REPORTED THROUGH THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ"
    It further states that Malik ibn Abbas objected to those narratives of Hisham which reported through the people of Iraq.
    Mizanu'l-ai 'tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly.

    So, there you go .... all this points to the fact that Aisha was not 6 nor 9, but older when she married Mohammed.

    And just in case you guys start saying this is just recent studies or those who are not mainstream muslims - Malik ibn Abbas lived between 93AH - 179AH, and he cast serious doubt on this narrative of Aisha being 6 or 9. Malik ibn Abbas is a very much respected Imam. The Maliki madhab, one of the four schools of juresprudence is named after him
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas


  • #249
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh it kinda does. As he points out the more "Islamic" a Muslim state is the more likely they are to allow a very young marriage age for girls. Whst I'd like to see and it may be informative is are there differences in the marriage age for boys in those cultures that allow it for younger girls?

    Which still leaves a question of defining which states are "Islamic" and which aren't. As I asked earlier - which are the "Islamic" states?


  • #250
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's pretty simple. EG Turkey while a predominantly Muslim population is a more secular state than SA. It's a less Islamic state. Less of its laws are derived from Sharia. SA would have it's laws based on Sharia jurisprudence. Not exactly rocket science no matter how much you try to tie it up in semantic knots. Closer to home 50 years ago. Ireland and Holland. Both ostensibly Christian countries. The former would be a more Christian(Catholic) country than the latter as would be the application of those laws.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #251
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    It is semantics and rightly so. He made a sweeping generalisation by use of a vague term.
    Wibbs wrote:
    EG Turkey while a predominantly Muslim population is a more secular state than SA. It's a less Islamic state

    Dear Jesus..........

    Islam wrote:
    .
    • A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.
      1. The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world.
      2. The civilization developed by the Muslim world.
    [Arabic 'islām, submission, from 'aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac 'ašlem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of šlem, to be complete.]

    Islamic Is·lam'ic adj.
    http://www.answers.com/topic/islam

    Has the word "conservative" been removed from the english language since last night? Wheres "fundamentalist" gone?


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  • #252
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Nodin

    I will be frank. I have been straight and honest in my post.

    you wrote

    "mainstream" Islam? Suffice to say that I don't think a majority of the worlds muslims would - in this day and age - approve of such a practice.


    How does that differ from what i said about paeodophillia and all people ?

    You also wrote

    If anyone wants to produce statistics that show rates of such marriage per head of the various muslim countries, it would be useful. At the moment theres far too much vague waffle about the subject -nobody has shown its even a common practice where its known to be allowed.

    I doubt it is a common practice anywhere, as you can tell from my posts above, of what relevance to the central argument is this point.? Mainstream Islam ( defined by those that follow the ditates of Al alzar university and not the extremes of dour Osmaa bin ladin types on one hand and liberal Ahmadiyya types on the other, in other worlds the vast bulk of the worlds Islamic population.) accepts the legitimacy of 9 yr old female marraige.

    You are being lazy. ( sorry if that sounds harsh, i mean it as encouagement) Just look up the legal system of any country, check what type it is and how much Shariah it uses, none, some, or total and see the link to 9 yr old marraige for yourself. It is much better this way as you can see for yourself. I am sorry but i am getting the impression that you might just be a person that loves to argue for it's own sake rather than to reveal the truth. Please go back and read my posts before replying. The link is obvious, if you really want me to supply it I will but i would rather you did your own spadework. It is really easy to find out, but when one has uneathered it for oneself, it makes the impluse to argue for its own sake a little less important. I don't mean to have a go at you but truth is far more important than the trill of debate. Check yourself, then post. Be you own guide, use your own faculities and you will be less likly to doubt them.

    Respectfully
    DP


  • #253
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Derevarra

    I do not claim to know what Mohammad did or did not do with a younf girl or what age she was at the time

    However

    What you have just written is not accepted in Islamic jurispurdence and does not form part of Shariah, it is just research and interpretation of a schoraly nature that has not been included in Islamic jusisprudence. It may or may not be true, I donn't know but it is not currently part of mainstream ( al anzar) islam.

    This is for a very obvious resaon. If you start to call into doubt the veracity of these hadith ( that she was 9) you must also start to doubt many many other hadith on the same ground. For example, the doubt over authencity because the old age of some of the persons given as sources of hadith would apply to great numbers of hadith that would also have to be dismissed. This would literally destroy Islam as it is currently constructed and it would look very very different. You would throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is either Islam with a 9 yr old wife for mohammad incl sex or a deconstructed Islam. This is why the reseach you quote is not relevant. It is not currently part of Islam.

    I still don't know if he did or did not, nobody will, but mainstream Islam accepts that he did. And that is all that matters


  • #254
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dharma protector wrote: »
    Nodin

    I will be (..........)to doubt them.

    Respectfully
    DP

    I've no idea what you're on about, nor am I too pushed. Somebody used the expression "Islamic countrys". It's - at best - an overly broad term. I took them up on it, and am quite correct in doing so.


  • #255
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Nope like DP I feel you are arguing for the sake of it. Muslim country = Country where the majority of the population are muslims. You can pick those out easy enough on a map. The degree where sharia law influences the civil law would make the same countries more or less "islamic". Legal marriage age of girls would be a fairly good indicator of how islamic or how secular the countries are.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #256
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Nodin
    you have recently written

    I've no idea what you're on about, nor am I too pushed. Somebody used the expression "Islamic countrys". It's - at best - an overly broad term. I took them up on it, and am quite correct in doing so.

    I conceded ( it is really not that hard of a thing to do) that point to you and pointed out to you that it was irreevant to the debate in hand. You have written much more than that, asking about stats, prevelence etc etc and i have addressed these amply in my posts. You are ignoring them as if I did not write them. You have won your semantic debate ( well done) but could you now please let it go and address what I actually wrote to you. You say you are not pushed, well I don't like wasting my time, I am actually writing this stuff to you so you can understand what mainstream Islam believes and teaches on this issue ( not win a debate). if you are not pushed then why post over pedantic semantics irrelevant to the central debate of this thread. You took him up on it, made your point but why all the other stuff. If you are really not pushed, fair eneough, then you could just leave the debate now and stop muddying the waters. If it is fear, rather than just not being bothered, that I might just be telling the truth on this issue and that might make it difficult for your view on this topic ( perhaps change it) then I suggest you actually read all my recent posts and do your own spadework ( no blind faith required). I am really not making it up. If you wanted to see what the vatican teaches, you can go to their own wedsite, If you want to check what kind of legal system a country has there are endless resources to find out, and ditto for checking the age of marraige of a female in those countries. ( these sources are not concerned with this debate,just supply raw information like legal codes and cotton and coal production, that is why the can be trusted)
    Your posts are distracting from the central point I am trying to make, a useful debating skill but not useful in trying to get to the truth, and you are giving grist to the mill for those that want to obscure, bend, bury and distort the facts for those not familiar with the territority of this debate. I am familiar and can catch those obscuring etc out, but you are not helping.

    I am an expert but not one who merely says believe all I say. I point you in the right direction and let you be your own guide to the truth. If you don't want to do that, but you have some good conscience, than please bow out now and stop confusing matters. I really really would like you to comment again on what you said and my comments.

    PS (Again, I do not mean the Islamic Countries semantics stuff, the other stuff)

    Respectfully
    DP


  • #257
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Oh and Nodin

    that stuff you wrote about him marrying her for dynastic, social etc reasons, well perhaps he did (again I dont't claim to know what happened in the arbian desert 1600 yrs ago) however,

    According to the accepted sources that inform Islamic law, he did actually have sex with her, and that is why 9 yr old marraige is acceptable because he is the perfect example for all Muslims in all times and places. This does not mean they have to do it any more than they have to ride a camel but they certyainly can ride a camel and marry 9 yrs old if they want to according to established Shariah

    This and the other stuff you are writing about is what i am talking about, please start adressing it, you are clearly supporting one side of the argument while saying you have no real interest. My colours are firmly run up the mast on this issue. Either you accept that Mainsteam Islam believes and teaches this or you don't. If you don't, present your evidence. Others people that don't believe it are presenting theirs, like Irish convet ( whom I put right and have not heard from since) and Derevarra whom I am waiting to hear back from. Why not join them. I dont mind schooling you either ;) , That was a light joke but please put up or shut up. :)


  • #258
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Nope like DP I feel you are arguing for the sake of it. Muslim country = Country where the majority of the population are muslims. You can pick those out easy enough on a map. The degree where sharia law influences the civil law would make the same countries more or less "islamic". Legal marriage age of girls would be a fairly good indicator of how islamic or how secular the countries are.

    So If I was to say that "Child Marriage is also practised in christian countries" you wouldn't take that as overly vague or misleading then....?


  • #259
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dharma protector wrote: »
    N
    I conceded ( it is really not that hard of a thing to do) that point to you and pointed out to you that it was irreevant to the debate in hand. You have written much more than that, asking about stats, prevelence etc etc and i have addressed these amply in my posts.

    You stated
    I doubt it is a common practice anywhere, as you can tell from my posts above, of what relevance to the central argument is this point.? Mainstream Islam ( defined by those that follow the ditates of Al alzar university and not the extremes of dour Osmaa bin ladin types on one hand and liberal Ahmadiyya types on the other, in other worlds the vast bulk of the worlds Islamic population.) accepts the legitimacy of 9 yr old female marraige.

    ...if its a rare practice then, logically, its not a mainstream one. If its not a mainstream practice, this rather undermines notions that its legitamacy is widely accepted in modern times.


  • #260
    The Highwayman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭The Highwayman


    So Nodin do you want me to tell you what counrtys are islamic? Or just countrys that allow or turn a blind eye to child brides and grooms who could be old enough to be their grandfathers?
    To be honest whichever it is I could'nt be arsed, if you dont know what countrys in the world that are considered islamic or whick ones allow the abuse of female children then maybe you should not be taking part in this thread.


  • #261
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Nodin, firstly thank you for actually addressing my post, I thought you might not, now we can actually begin to make some progress. You actually missed the point but i see how you might have done so. Ok let me explain very very clearly

    I wrote


    "I doubt it is a common practice anywhere, as you can tell from my posts above, of what relevance to the central argument is this point.? Mainstream Islam ( defined by those that follow the ditates of Al alzar university and not the extremes of dour Osmaa bin ladin types on one hand and liberal Ahmadiyya types on the other, in other worlds the vast bulk of the worlds Islamic population.) accepts the legitimacy of 9 yr old female marraige.et me take you through this"

    You then wrote

    "...if its a rare practice then, logically, its not a mainstream one. If its not a mainstream practice, this rather undermines notions that its legitamacy is widely accepted in modern times.. "

    your logic here is very flawed,

    The practice is rare
    The practice is not a mainstream one
    But its legitimacy is accepted by mainstream Islamic teaching (shariah law)
    or put it another way
    Mainstream Islam accepts this parctice as legitimate


    now I hope that is clear, if not let me give you a useful analogy

    Most Catholics in todays world practice contraception
    The practice of contraception is a mainstream practice among catholics
    Its legitimacy is not accepted by mainsteam catholic teaching( canon law)
    Mainstream catholisism does not accept this parctice as legitimate.


    Now I hope that clears it up for you, are really don't think i can make it any clearer. It is important to mention that many catholics will say that they consider themselves catholics but don't believe all the directions of catholic canon law but i cannot remember ever hearing a muslim say, they consider themselves Muslims but don't believe all the directions of Islamic Shariah law

    Again ( this is getting a little tiresome) , it does not mean Muslims must obey this law and of course it makes very little difference for the vast majority of muslims who have no sexual preferences for children like the rest of humanity, but for those that do, it allows them to legitimise their behaviour without sanction.

    It is widely accepted in modern times because the example of the Islamic prophet Mohammad is for All peoples and for All times, according to Shariah

    Now I only have one question left for you
    Do you get it :)
    If not I really cannot explain it any better, so I am afraid on this matter I cannot go on and on and on. I hope you do. It is a horrible moment when you find out that this is the teaching and this is the implication of that teaching. I remember the moment 17 years ago when i found out for myself. Also, probably most Muslims are unaware of this teaching like many catholics do not understand aspects of canon law. It is something that muslims that do know about have not been overly keen to advertise in recent times but rather let it rumble along quitely in Islamic court cases, many of which are begining to make international press. Lastly I have no interest in speading lies and misinformation, I would much much much rather believe this was not part of mainsteam Islam. But it is.

    respectfully yours
    DP


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  • #262
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Nodin wrote: »
    So If I was to say that "Child Marriage is also practised in christian countries" you wouldn't take that as overly vague or misleading then....?
    If you said "Child Marriage was also practised in christian countries up to quite recently" I would agree. Indeed I have stated this many times in this thread. Child brides do still take place in other places but it's far more localised and rarely sanctioned by law or by the scholars of the faith.

    Iran: http://www.ilna.ir/fullstory.aspx?ID=132499

    Iraq, as the country returns to its more Islamist roots: http://insidethemiddleeast.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/15/video-iraqs-child-brides/

    Yemen is beyond silly: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/04/30/yemens_child_bride_backlash

    Saudi Arabia. I love how they're gonna "regulate" it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7999777.stm

    Afghanistan: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/world/asia/31flogging.html?_r=1

    Pakistan. Even though the law forbids the practice. It's often ignored: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/05/pakistan.humanrights

    Bahrain: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/579991-no-plan-to-close-child-bride-loophole--bahrain-minister

    While countries like Egypt and Jordan are making welcome efforts to stamp out the practice, the practice is a more an Islamic cultural one. If it didnt have deep roots in Islam, then the more Islamic a society became the less likely it would be to happen. The opposite occurs. No amount of playing the semantic shell game can get away from this fact.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #263
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Highwayman wrote: »
    So Nodin do you want me to tell you what counrtys are islamic? Or just countrys that allow or turn a blind eye to child brides and grooms who could be old enough to be their grandfathers?
    To be honest whichever it is I could'nt be arsed, if you dont know what countrys in the world that are considered islamic or whick ones allow the abuse of female children then maybe you should not be taking part in this thread.

    Spare me your crap. You stated This is why 9 is the age a girl can be married off in Islamic countrys.

    "Islamic countrys" could be taken as referring to any country with a muslim majority. Not all countrys with a muslim majority allow that to happen, therefore its tarring all with the same brush. I'd suggest being to able to discern not only the distinction, but the importance of it, before proceeding to lecture.


  • #264
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    If you said "Child Marriage was also practised in christian countries up to quite recently" I would agree. Indeed I have stated this many times in this thread. Child brides do still take place in other places but it's far more localised and rarely sanctioned by law or by the scholars of the faith.

    Its still practiced to this day in some of them. Therefore why should we deviate from "Child marriage is practised in christian countrys"?


  • #265
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dharma protector wrote: »
    It is widely accepted in modern times because the example of the Islamic prophet Mohammad is for All peoples and for All times, according to Shariah

    It's not "widely accepted" as far as I can tell. In fact the practice of child marriage seems to be linked to certain tribal practices and lack economic development more closely than muslim majoritys.


  • #266
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Way to completely and willfully ignore the points made. Every post of yours copperfastens this willfulness on your part.
    Nodin wrote:
    "Islamic countrys" could be taken as referring to any country with a muslim majority. Not all countrys with a muslim majority allow that to happen,
    No, but the more religiously Islamic they are, the more they allow that to happen. In more ostensibly Islamic but secular states such as Turkey, while it may happen in the back of beyond its far rarer. Everywhere Islam as a religion is in resurgence or never went away the more it happens. Therefore it is quite logical to assume that the two are linked. No amount of your nitpicking can distract from that fact.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #267
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Nodin wrote: »
    Its still practiced to this day in some of them. Therefore why should we deviate from "Child marriage is practised in christian countrys"?
    Where? Not some tiny batshít american sect either. A religious Christian country were this goes on and is enshrined in the culture, the opinions of the religious leaders and has protection in law. That's the only comparison you can usefully make with countries like Iran, Gaza, Iraq, Pakistan(against the law but widely flouted), Yemen, SA, Bahrain, Afghanistan. Otherwise with respect you and your argument are talking without recourse to your mouth for the sake of it.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #268
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Where? Not some tiny batshít american sect either. A religious Christian country were this goes on and is enshrined in the culture, the opinions of the religious leaders and has protection in law. That's the only comparison you can usefully make with countries like Iran, Gaza, Iraq, Pakistan(against the law but widely flouted), Yemen, SA, Bahrain, Afghanistan. Otherwise with respect you and your argument are talking without recourse to your mouth for the sake of it.

    Dominican Republic, Brazil, Colombia, El Salvador, Bolivia, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico, Ethiopia, Central African Republic, Cameroon all have rates of marriage where Brides under 18 comprise 25% or more of the annual total. The 25% cut off was purely to save me typing up more.

    It's odd - I ask for precision, get taken to task for it, and - by way of illustration - give a fairly straightforward example of why I object, and then you demand from me the same precision I ask from others (in all seriousness) due to my illustration.


  • #269
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »

    No, but the more religiously Islamic they are, the more they allow that to happen. In more ostensibly Islamic but secular states such as Turkey, while it may happen in the back of beyond its far rarer. Everywhere Islam as a religion is in resurgence or never went away the more it happens. Therefore it is quite logical to assume that the two are linked. No amount of your nitpicking can distract from that fact.

    And what did I say?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67334534&postcount=251


  • #270
    The Highwayman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭The Highwayman


    Nodin wrote: »
    Spare me your crap. You stated This is why 9 is the age a girl can be married off in Islamic countrys.

    "Islamic countrys" could be taken as referring to any country with a muslim majority. Not all countrys with a muslim majority allow that to happen, therefore its tarring all with the same brush. I'd suggest being to able to discern not only the distinction, but the importance of it, before proceeding to lecture.

    'sigh'

    What is your point? Do you have one?

    I suggest you read the post that you are continuously going on about, then read it again. Then try to understand the point I was making was, 'The reason that Islamic countrys allow 9 year olds marry old men is (now wait for it) because mohammed is the most perfect example of a muslim. Therefore anything mohammed did is ok by isamic teaching.'

    Ergo as per main stream Islamic teaching it is accepted that mohammed took a child bride of 6/7 and the marrage was consummated at 9.

    Now this teaching would hardly have anything to do with Jewish, Christian, Hindu ... etc countrys. Would it?

    There are Islamic Countrys like Egypt who have banned the practice but still turn a blind eye to it. Other countrys like Turkey have done as much as they can to eradicate it.

    Now you can still bang on about the semantics of my post but it has nothing to do with the issue that is being debated.

    So one would have to wonder what is your angle or are you just uping your post count?


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  • #271
    dharma protector
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭dharma protector


    Nodin

    You wrote

    "It's not "widely accepted" as far as I can tell. In fact the practice of child marriage seems to be linked to certain tribal practices and lack economic development more closely than muslim majoritys."

    YES IT IS in EVERY SCHOOL of ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE bar the interpretation of tiny Amadiyya group ( which no other Muslim accepts as Islamic)

    "in as far as I can tell" ( YOU DO NOT BOTHER YOURSELF TOO HARD TO LOOK NOW DID YOU)

    This may seem hard to believe and it is very well worn argument by Islamic apolgists designed to prey on western ignorance, but economic development and tribal parctices are not the source of Islamic law, these tribal parctices are in most cases Islamic practices. Sure there are tribal practices in Islamic countries that are not islamic but the permissability of marraige to 9 yr olds is not one of them. It happens in rich gulf states and saudi along with poor ones like yemen and pakistan. It is true that poor parents sometimes sell their young girls for marraige to richer older men ( that is economic) but the practice is still sanctioned by MAINSTREAM ISLAMIC SAHRIAH LAW. This is why it is important because they claim devine sanction

    Nodin, respectfully I bow out in engaging with you now, I have supplyed very detailed posts and each time you go through them you completly fail to acknowledge what you cannot deny but instead pick out a term, apply your own context to it, that was not in my post. You know very well here that widely accepted means widely accepted by mainstream Islam rather than acceptance of the practice. Your style of argumant with me is that of an ambulance chasing gutter solicitor determined to represent his client, assuming he is innocent even though he had begun to notice the holes in his clients version of events. That is the job of a solicitor at times but here I am trying to reveal truth in a respectful manner and this engagment with you and your style is not going to do that at this time.

    I have a suggestion for you, it is my last suggestion for you. Rather than defend this position of yours, as an thought experiment and to try and catch me out by learning more about my position, why dont you take the opposite position ( mine) and defend it. You don't have to believe it, just defend it against attack, find your own sources and see where that leads you. It is just an experiment ( it could not hurt). It is a technique used by my old history professor to examine and evaluate evidence.

    So I am clear, my position is this

    That Mainstream Islam believes and dictates through the Shariah that Mohammad married and had sex with a 9 yr old girl. In mainstram Islam He is considered the perfect example for all humans in all times and in all places.



    I think you like to pick holes in peoples arguments and when motivated by a zeal to get to the truth of the matter that is a great characteristic but i don't think you are giving your talents and charater a proper opportunity to reveal themselves as something useful.

    I will now politly sign off in dealing with you, I wish you well and perhaps one day we may find each other here and bear a more fruitful conversation. I am still awaiting a reponce from the others, they seem to have disapeared for the moment in light of my information.

    Goodbye


This discussion has been closed.
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