If Mohammed had sex with his 9 year old wife does that make him a pedophile?

Hi I do not want to get too involved here, but I would like to supply some 'missing information to the debate. Speaking strictly as an historian I think it fair to say that Muhammad did exist however I do not think it possible to know what went on with the information we have and the way it was handed down (although their are excellent clues) but that is another days work . respectfully I add this for the attention of Irish Convert and Nodin

First Irish Convert

The information you are using to maintain she was 19 is from a Ahmadiyya Muslim Site. Now I have a lot of time for the Ahmadiyya faith. They believe themselves to be the true muslims and the kind of islam they advoate is most humane, reformed ( or original as they say) and noble. However the are very much a tiny fringe movement in the Islamic world, They are not accepted as Muslims at all by mainsteam Islam and are persecuted and even killed in the Islamic world for their interpretation of Islam. They are particularly reviled in pakistan where if they even try to call themselves Muslims, they risk imprisonment and often worse, as can be seen in recent murderous suicide attacks against them. I am afraid that Ahmadiyya interpretations are not worth the paper they are written on in the Islamic world, although I would like them to. If all Muslims were Ahmadiyya this would not be an issue but they are not, they are a tiny minority not even recognised in the wider community are being part of it.

Second Nodin

The qestion of defining what is or is not an Islamic country is a how long is a piece of string question and allows people to dodge the qestion because it allows Muslims to say that whatever country is mentioned is not an Islamic country or one that follows a true islamic system, as suits the debators needs at the time. On this issue what can be siad with certaintly, is that in the world at this time, is that in the Islamic world some countries have secular law, some a mixture of secular and Shariah, and some only Shariah. In every instance, one will find a direct correlation to the degree to which a society will allow (or a least ignore), the marraige of a 9 yr old girl, to the degree to which it says it follows Sariah. For example, Turkey (secular) does not allow it at all while Saudi and Yemen ( Sunni ) and Iran (Shia) do. That is a fact

Just wanted to clarify that, I don't mean this in disrespectful manner and look forward to your reply.

deravarra wrote: »

Pro paedophilia? Islam's "pro paedophilia" stance? Care to expand?

It' an endless spin on words, isn't it? IMO, there was no need to put the adjective Pro in the comment.

Fact: where Islamic law allows marriage to children under say 16 years of age, is a serious sexual assault or a paedophile offence in most 'Western' Countries ~ by law.

Opinions on the laws in each country can be emotional, as most 'westerners' would be abhorred to even think of marrying a child.

Hi Nodin

I was merly pointing out and actually agreeing with you that the term Islamic countries does not have any real relevance to this particular debate other than in the broadest of terms, actually for that matter either does Muslim, because what islamic countries or what Muslims do or do not do is not central to the debate ( somewhat relevant but not central). It is what claims and instructions Islam stands for that is paramount.

Let me be clear ( i thought i was)

I believe mohammad exsisted

I do not claim to actually know whether or not he married and had sex with a 9 year old girl ( i just dont have suffient and reliable historical data to make or reject that claim)

Weather you or I belive it or not is irrelevant.

But Now ( listen, this bit is vital)

Mainsteam ( not ahmadiyya) Islam claims that he did, according to their most solid sources ( there are many, I do have them, from the most Mainstream respected Islamic sources, please can we agree that i don't have to re produce them here, but I can if you want, it would be easier and more helpful to the debate if you checked and verifyed for yourself from whatever mainstream Islamic sources you care to use, rather than believe me, that way you don't just have to accept ( and suspect) what i am saying, but can find out directly yourself. ( no blind faith required by me)

So, Mainstream Islam makes this claim, not just crackpot fringe groups ( or the ahmadiyya, who as explained above, have a diffeent interpretation )

So. again once again, the point still stands. What you or I think does not matter. For example I may think that contraception is fine for Catholics but that is not what the Catholic church says. What the vatican says is catholism is catholism untill changed. What Islam claims and instructs may not be what all Muslims agree with or practice but it remains Islam

On a related note, It is simply a non point to say that if Islam permits this why is is not more widespread. Most humans regardless of background are not sexually attracted to children, and therefore have not desire to do such a thing. Whatever causes Paedophilla is not an issue for the vast majority or humanity, Muslim or not, so whether is is permissable or not is not going to change our behaviour. You or I are not going to suddenly find children attractive just because some law says you could.

However ( and this is important) where such a law is in force, it will not make paedophilla any more likely it will allow those with paedophine tendencies to claim devine sanction for their behaviour and get away with it, as happens throughout the Islamic world where these aspects of the Shariah are implemented.

To return to my first point concerning the unimportance of the term Islamic countries for this debate. You have not addressed the point, which still stands. Some Islamic countries have secular law (turkey), some mix, the secular and Shariah(egypt) and some say Shariah alone ( saudi, iran) but there is a direct correlation between a country allowing ( or merely ignoring) the marraige of 9 year olds, and the degree to which they claim adherance to the sharia.This is a easily checked fact.Just pick a country, note its legal or mixed legal system and then check the minimum age for marraige of a female. Please check this out yourself, again is is better that you do this than blindly believe me. Do not believe what I say but check it out for yourself.

Please stay engaged. I hope I am am making my points in a fair way, I do not intend to anger or belittle anyone. I just believe in presenting facts in as honest and resaonble way possible. I hope I have.

Have a good weekend

DP

how do we know he had secks with a 9 year old?