Things that bug me about Trek (post-Original Series)

Goodshape · 06-07-2010 5:36pm

I can't defend Voyager, but TNG (and TOS) were about exploring and seeking out and boldly going and all that. It wasn't so much "hit the reboot" as "ok, we've seen that, now lets go see something else".

DS9, particularly towards the end, just went on and on with the same drab story and a few splosions. That's not dreadful necessarily but it's not near as fun or interesting.

Cookie_Monster · 06-07-2010 8:13pm

having just watched most of the first two seasons of Voyager I need to re-state how terrible it is.

All these character traits thats disappear: chakotae's religious nonesense and brush top, Paris importance as a command character, janeway being mega uptight and insisting on leading away missions and such etc

The fact that they limp along on emergency rations and no power for a few episodes and then it's all grand and never an issue again.

destroying about a million shuttles, I mean do they have a manufacturing plant hidden aboard somewhere?

Kes :mad::mad::mad:

And I'd forgotten how much of a tool Neelix was at the start

Klingon Hamlet · 06-07-2010 8:37pm

Goodshape wrote: »

I can't defend Voyager, but TNG (and TOS) were about exploring and seeking out and boldly going and all that. It wasn't so much "hit the reboot" as "ok, we've seen that, now lets go see something else".

DS9, particularly towards the end, just went on and on with the same drab story and a few splosions. That's not dreadful necessarily but it's not near as fun or interesting.

Gowron, Martok, Gul Dukat, Weyoun...DS9 had some of the coolest supporting characters ever. The Dominion Wars were epic and Sisko was a fearless badass. Plus, the characters changed over time, whereas Picard, Janeway et al remained consistently vanilla throughout the show.

norrie rugger · 06-07-2010 9:14pm

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Gowron, Martok, Gul Dukat, Weyoun...DS9 had some of the coolest supporting characters ever. The Dominion Wars were epic and Sisko was a fearless badass. Plus, the characters changed over time, whereas Picard, Janeway et al remained consistently vanilla throughout the show.

Picard changed from super duper uptight authoritarian, to just super uptight

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-07-2010 12:33pm

he also learned to play the tin whistle!

Flying Abruptly · 08-07-2010 1:22pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

having just watched most of the first two seasons of Voyager I need to re-state how terrible it is.

I agree the first couple of seasons were pretty poor, but I think the last three series were very good

Myrddin · 08-07-2010 11:22pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

And I'd forgotten how much of a tool Neelix was at the start

FYP

CSaber · 09-07-2010 8:34pm

Voyager started out as interesting idea but was then ruined by the station executives who really just wanted a new TNG, with a ship travelling around the galaxy having an adventure every week. I seem to recall around Season 4 or 5 rumours suggesting that Voyager was going to make it home and the following seasons would be set in the Alpha Quadrant. One good thing about Voyager was that it inspired nuBSG!!

DS9 episodes don't really work on their own. It is a series that requires every episode to be watched in order to get the full story, and is quite good in that regard.

Flying Abruptly · 09-07-2010 8:47pm

Somethings thats always bugged me is that when a 'ships main power is offline' or a shuttle craft is floating dead in space is that no matter how damaged every other system was (including life support), that there was never a mention of a problem with the artifical gravity.

I know would be next to possible to actually film but still, they could have made some reference to it. Having just rewatched all of Voyager I think Kim mentioned artifical gravity being offline on 3 decks once.

I could be missing some info about star trek based technology so if someone could enlighten me it would be much appreciated

Klingon Hamlet · 09-07-2010 8:59pm

Flying Abruptly wrote: »

Somethings thats always bugged me is that when a 'ships main power is offline' or a shuttle craft is floating dead in space is that no matter how damaged every other system was (including life support), that there was never a mention of a problem with the artifical gravity.

I know would be next to possible to actually film but still, they could have made some reference to it. Having just rewatched all of Voyager I think Kim mentioned artifical gravity being offline on 3 decks once.

I could be missing some info about star trek based technology so if someone could enlighten me it would be much appreciated

Maybe their uniform boots are magnetic;)

I hated the "structural integrity at 30%" rubbinsh. That meant over two thirds integrity was gone...shouldn't it have crumbled like in Year of Hell?

And I hated the way the interesting idea of two factions---Fleet and Maquis---working alongside each other could've brought out a lot of tension, but instead, fizzled away quite quickly, til you forgot they were split at all.

born2bwild · 04-08-2010 4:05am

You have to give ENT some credit. Ok, the plot lines were awful...Extinction season 3, ep 4 for example...but none of the characters is anywhere nearly as stupid and annoying as Wesley Crusher, Neelix, Kes, Chackotay or Beverly Crusher. Phlox is the best doctor since McCoy and Trip is up there with O'Brien. Granted, the captain is unconvincing but T'Pol is a total babe: Seven of Nine level space poon.

Klingon Hamlet · 04-08-2010 11:12am

born2bwild wrote: »

You have to give ENT some credit. Ok, the plot lines were awful...Extinction season 3, ep 4 for example...but none of the characters is anywhere nearly as stupid and annoying as Wesley Crusher, Neelix, Kes, Chackotay or Beverly Crusher. Phlox is the best doctor since McCoy and Trip is up there with O'Brien. Granted, the captain is unconvincing but T'Pol is a total babe: Seven of Nine level space poon.

Enterprise was very silly. They started out with basic tech but within 4 years had warp 5, transporters, torpedoes and shields. T'Pols mere presence now takes away from Spock's status as the first vulcan in the Fleet---yes she's there as a representative of the Vulcan Science Council, but she's really an amalgamation of Spock and 7 of 9.

Phlox reminds me of Neelix, something about the silly makeup and pyjama-like outfits he wore. EMH was a better doctor IMHO.

Yeah it was a shame about Archer, I like the actor but the dialogue was sh1t. The only 2 interesting characters in the show were Shran and Dr Soong.

helimachoptor · 04-08-2010 11:16am

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Enterprise was very silly. They started out with basic tech but within 4 years had warp 5, transporters, torpedoes and shields. T'Pols mere presence now takes away from Spock's status as the first vulcan in the Fleet---yes she's there as a representative of the Vulcan Science Council, but she's really an amalgamation of Spock and 7 of 9.

Phlox reminds me of Neelix, something about the silly makeup and pyjama-like outfits he wore. EMH was a better doctor IMHO.

Yeah it was a shame about Archer, I like the actor but the dialogue was sh1t. The only 2 interesting characters in the show were Shran and Dr Soong.

Shran (Coombs) is a fantastic actor, bring him back as a baddie in the next film :pac::pac:

Cookie_Monster · 04-08-2010 11:20am

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Enterprise was very silly. They started out with basic tech but within 4 years had warp 5, transporters, torpedoes and shields.

most of that is just power related and once you can generate x amount of power you can start doing stuff like that fairly easily I would have thought.

It was a warp 5 engine, so should really have gone warp 5 from day one too.

norrie rugger · 04-08-2010 11:22am

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Enterprise was very silly. They started out with basic tech but within 4 years had warp 5, transporters, torpedoes and shields. T'Pols mere presence now takes away from Spock's status as the first vulcan in the Fleet---yes she's there as a representative of the Vulcan Science Council, but she's really an amalgamation of Spock and 7 of 9.

Phlox reminds me of Neelix, something about the silly makeup and pyjama-like outfits he wore. EMH was a better doctor IMHO.

Yeah it was a shame about Archer, I like the actor but the dialogue was sh1t. The only 2 interesting characters in the show were Shran and Dr Soong.

I never thought that Spock was meant to be the first Vulcan in starfleet

born2bwild · 04-08-2010 5:36pm

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Enterprise was very silly. They started out with basic tech but within 4 years had warp 5, transporters, torpedoes and shields. T'Pols mere presence now takes away from Spock's status as the first vulcan in the Fleet---yes she's there as a representative of the Vulcan Science Council, but she's really an amalgamation of Spock and 7 of 9.

Phlox reminds me of Neelix, something about the silly makeup and pyjama-like outfits he wore. EMH was a better doctor IMHO.

Yeah it was a shame about Archer, I like the actor but the dialogue was sh1t. The only 2 interesting characters in the show were Shran and Dr Soong.

No... I have to defend Phlox...he's got brains and balls. Neelix made VOY unwatchable; a total w****r. Yeah there are discontinuites because of ENT's bad science and disregard for the timeline, but the show is nowhere nearly as bad as some people make out.
And I think T'Pol appears to be an amalgam of prior characters only in retrospect: her limitations as a character are the same ones that Data and Spock had: overly rational foils to the humans they wittingly or unwittingly start to resemble. And she was a total ride.
ENT's plots were sometimes terrible but so were those of the other series. Its saving grace is, as I see it, that none of the characters is irritating and cloying like the collection of c**k s*****s I mentioned in my last post...The Crushers, Neelix, Neelix, Chakotay, Kes, Quark, Neelix, Tom Parris and Neelix.

Klingon Hamlet · 04-08-2010 5:49pm

born2bwild wrote: »

Its saving grace is, as I see it, that none of the characters is irritating and cloying like the collection of c**k s*****s I mentioned in my last post...The Crushers, Neelix, Neelix, Chakotay, Kes, Quark, Neelix, Tom Parris and Neelix.

I liked Quark and loved Rom:D Nog, not so much! Chakotay could have been the awesome foil to Janeway's rigid Fleetness...could even have turned her a little to the maquis way of doing things...there could've been power sturggles, mutinies, mistrust, and sexual tension...instead by episode 3 or something he was a puppy dog.

CSaber · 04-08-2010 6:02pm

norrie rugger wrote: »

I never thought that Spock was meant to be the first Vulcan in starfleet

I don't think it was ever stated that he was, and it is not mentioned in his Memory Alpha article. Also in that episode with the giant amoeba the Intrepid was crewed entirely by Vulcans.

Klingon Hamlet · 04-08-2010 6:24pm

Says it here hmmm... note the Vulcans may have joined Starfleet after Spock.

CSaber · 04-08-2010 6:51pm

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Says it here hmmm... note the Vulcans may have joined Starfleet after Spock.

Yes but it is not canon. Was it actually ever stated on-screen?

Klingon Hamlet · 04-08-2010 7:06pm

CSaber wrote: »

Yes but it is not canon. Was it actually ever stated on-screen?

Nope

Cookie_Monster · 04-08-2010 7:32pm

born2bwild wrote: »

ENT's plots were sometimes terrible but so were those of the other series. Its saving grace is, as I see it, that none of the characters is irritating and cloying like the collection of c**k s*****s I mentioned in my last post...The Crushers, Neelix, Neelix, Chakotay, Kes, Quark, Neelix, Tom Parris and Neelix.

Quark was a great character!

And you're forgetting Travis and Yoshi...

PhiloCypher · 04-08-2010 9:22pm

Goodshape wrote: »

I can't defend Voyager, but TNG (and TOS) were about exploring and seeking out and boldly going and all that. It wasn't so much "hit the reboot" as "ok, we've seen that, now lets go see something else".

DS9, particularly towards the end, just went on and on with the same drab story and a few splosions. That's not dreadful necessarily but it's not near as fun or interesting.

I actually posted this in another thread but it applies here too, I think what it comes down to for me beyond the war arcs and the splosions (as you put it) is that DS9 simply had the more interesting interpersonal relationships.

TNG had:

Picard/Data
Picard/Guinan
La'forge/Data

DS9 had :

Sisko/Jake
Sisko/Kira
Sisko/Dukat
Sisko/Eddington
Kira/Dukat
Kira/Odo
Odo/Quark
O Brien/Bashir
Bashir/Garak
Dukat/Weyoun
Damar/weyoun

Now I may have missed a few on both sides but you get the picture, not to diss TNG but DS9 simply has the more varied, fun and interesting character dynamics .

Klingon Hamlet · 04-08-2010 9:46pm

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I actually posted this in another thread but it applies here too, I think what it comes down to for me beyond the war arcs and the splosions (as you put it) is that DS9 simply had the more interesting interpersonal relationships.

TNG had:
Picard/Data

Picard/Guinan

La'forge/Data

DS9 had :
Sisko/Jake

Sisko/Kira

Sisko/Dukat

Sisko/Eddington

Kira/Dukat

Kira/Odo

Odo/Quark

O Brien/Bashir

Bashir/Garak

Dukat/Weyoun

Damar/weyoun

Now I may have missed a few on both sides but you get the picture, not to diss TNG but DS9 simply has the more varied, fun and interesting character dynamics .

That's cos TNG was stuck in the Monster of the Week mould (same as Voyager and to some extent Enterprise). DS9 was more static an environment, which could only mean the characters had to be more interesting, varied, diverse, and evolving. Apart from the awful Ferengi episodes and the silly Mirror Universe distractions, and despite it being based on the fringe of Federation space, DS9 felt like it represented the heart of the Trekverse.

I enjoyed certain characters, though I didn't always warm to Sisko. Kira was alright, Odo was interesting, Bashir was an irritating toff, O'Brien looked like he wished Jean-Luc would come and save him (Colm Meaney always stuck out like a sore thumb anyway), Jadzia was very sexy and a sh1te actress. Garak was fascinating, very enjoyable. Same with Weyoun and at times Dukat, when he wasn't being one-dimensional and boring. The Founders subplot was wearisome, the Dominion War was a little too grim and cheap sometimes, the Klingons were softened too much at times (Worf and Dax's wedding was ridiculously human---hugging???).

Now if only it wasn't a complete rip-off of Babylon 5...

Cookie_Monster · 05-08-2010 8:18am

Was thinking about this while watching an episode of DS9 last nite. What I really hate is how often the kill lesser characters and no-one is bothered. A case of "get that corpse off the bridge and get on with it"

A good example:

When Neelix kills the traitor guy (Jonas) on Voyager, he's almost laughing about it to Tuvok moments later and not detained or anything. Even if he was a traitor, he was still a person and none of the seem to care at all.

PhiloCypher · 05-08-2010 3:18pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Was thinking about this while watching an episode of DS9 last nite. What I really hate is how often the kill lesser characters and no-one is bothered. A case of "get that corpse off the bridge and get on with it"

A good example:

When Neelix kills the traitor guy (Jonas) on Voyager, he's almost laughing about it to Tuvok moments later and not detained or anything. Even if he was a traitor, he was still a person and none of the seem to care at all.

Their indifference in a general sense could be rationalized as being down to :

A) the officers not mixing with the ensigns, bridge officers are the elite and could have elitest attitudes (they never got to know the deceased and thus don't care as much).

infact in many war movies the vets in the military try not to get to know the newbs as they will probably be the first to "get it" when the S%$T hits the fan so its a self defense mechanism.

C) they aren't indifferent at all they simply can't afford to break down mid battle to mourn there comarades for reasons of discipline and machismo , they simply wait till there in the privacy of there own quarters after episodes end before letting the loss hit them .

Cookie_Monster · 05-08-2010 3:38pm

just quickly

A) In Jonas' case, big maquis happy family didn't seem bothered.

Starfleet is not meant to be military so death should not be encountered as often, mainly from grizzly alien mishaps which should really freak the **** out of everyone

C) Not always in battle, which I can understand, but often when dealing with an alien or such that accidentally kills someone and they're all happy friends by the end of it...

I suppose as a family show it would be a little dark to get hung up on it all the time, same way most injuries are minor, or little bit of blood or death. Can't really show the gruesome stuff...

PhiloCypher · 05-08-2010 3:51pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just quickly

A) In Jonas' case, big maquis happy family didn't seem bothered.

Starfleet is not meant to be military so death should not be encountered as often, mainly from grizzly alien mishaps which should really freak the **** out of everyone

C) Not always in battle, which I can understand, but often when dealing with an alien or such that accidentally kills someone and they're all happy friends by the end of it...

I suppose as a family show it would be a little dark to get hung up on it all the time, same way most injuries are minor, or little bit of blood or death. Can't really show the gruesome stuff...

Is Starfleet not the military arm of the federation or at least is that not what it started out as before its remit snowballed to include all the science/first contact feel good stuff , could it not be that certain miltary attitudes would prevail in such a case .

Cookie_Monster · 05-08-2010 6:36pm

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Is Starfleet not the military arm of the federation or at least is that not what it started out as before its remit snowballed to include all the science/first contact feel good stuff , could it not be that certain miltary attitudes would prevail in such a case .

this sums it up well:

Wikipedia wrote:

Starfleet is a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada of spacecraft, that provides defense, research, diplomacy, and exploration services to the United Federation of Planets (UFP)

born2bwild · 05-08-2010 11:47pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Quark was a great character!

And you're forgetting Travis and Yoshi...

I never liked Quark but you're right about Travis: he's a tool. Yoshi is hot, though and before you deride my superficiality let me do it first: Me, Yoshi, T'Pol, Seven of nine and, sorry about this, but Caprica 6 too, going at it in my gaf and I ain't talking about no holodecks either. Let's face it, sci - fi purists may frown but why would we bother developing space travel technologies if there were no babes like those at the end of it all????

Things that bug me about Trek (post-Original Series)

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