The reason why there is no change or revolt . .

Drumpot · 31-07-2010 12:37PM #1

People on boards.ie wounder why there are no revolts or change in politics in Ireland.

Its simple, most people just dont want change and dont want to actually have to feel any pain , pain that a revolt may cause.

On one hand we have those who are relatively poor, but through a very generous social welfare system they can survive comfortably, even more comfortably then the working class in many cases (certainly mine!). Why would they want change?

Then you have the working class who are just trying to get by. They , more then anybody desire change as they are ones left carrying the real burden of society and the ones carrying the can for the country. When people talk of "sharing the pain" its this section of society that will pay the most in hardship. People assume paying the most money means you pay the most, its how it effects your life that is how one can truely gauge the true cost paid.

Then you have those in ivory towers who take what they have for granted and wouldnt want to change a society that facilitates their every whim (without ramifications of their mistakes).

Then you have the pensioners who have so much free time they could march everyday to the Dail (and would). They feel like the rest of us should take the pain for the mistakes that the electorate made. They are a taboo topic and its difficult for anybody to discuss them impartially because if you say that they should not be spared when savings have to be made in the budget you are automatically attacked. I take exception when OAP's say they have served the state and shouldnt have to pay for the mistakes of the government. While it suited them they voted in the government that screwed us all just as much as the rest of the population.

In truth the problem is that the people of our country dont really care about anything other then themselves. They have no long term objectives other then increasing their own personal wealth. In general, principles and morals will be dropped at a hat. How is this clearly apparant ? Because its what we get from pretty much all elected T.D's in all parties and they are voted in by the electorate. Governments and politicians DO mirror their people in democracy's. Joe Higgins is the nearest this country has to a a politcian with strong ethical and moral beliefs that he practises. I am not a supporter of him, but think that he's as clean cut a politician that there is out there.

Instead of looking for change all our people do is bitch and moan and cry foul at how helpless they are . . If enough people demanded accountability they would get it. . . If people didnt want the cute hoor's in politics they wouldnt re elect obvious criminals who use loopholes to screw the state. . "Ah but sure I was living here" or "Ah but sure I was entitled to it" . . Why are these acceptable explanations ?

People are so disillusioned with most (if not all) politicians, they have given up hope of true change ever happening. We need more moral leaders in politics. But that has to start from society considering morals and ethics as integral to their progression. Dont ask your local politician just what he can do for you when he knocks on your door for your vote. Ask him how he can prove to you that he has moral leadership and courage to stand up to the obviously disgraceful lack of accountability. What will he do to change the wink wink , nudge nudge, wag the dog to take focus off dodgy discrepancies that exist in business and political circles?

Only when we begin to challenge conventional wisdom will we DESERVE a better government .

Denerick · 31-07-2010 01:24PM

The reason people don't want protests or revolt is because most protesters and revolters are ignominious morons you're refuse to give a lift to in your car. The hive mentality of the protest mind is rather queasy, when you interfer with the surface.

newfrontier · 31-07-2010 01:40PM

Good analysis..but you have to do something or we will forever be caught in this ridiculous setup. How ? By forming a community who want change and are prepared to act to achieve change ,standing idly by is not an option!!

racso1975 · 31-07-2010 01:52PM

Tell me how you plan to revolt? What do you plan on doing? How are you going to do it etc etc

mikemac · 31-07-2010 01:56PM

Every worthwhile proteset is hijacked.

I remember a few months ago the march to the Dail.
Fintan O'Toole was a speaker in Parnell Sq, that's where it started. I attended that part.
Sinn Fein, People before Profit and many other banners were there. Fair enough, their supporters can go.

We turn on the news and watch people rushing gardai at the Dail entrance and then screaming garda brutality. :rolleyes:

The next week there was a small protest outside Anglo Irish HQ.
And two girls put on fake blood to get attention and imply the gardai assaulted them. They admitted they used fake blood on RTE radio afterwards.

Protesting outside the Dáil and Anglo Irish are acceptable things to do if it's organized and gardai are informed.

But I wouldn't attend with the likes of messing from every party volunteer on the bandwagon, hippie and anarchist that attends.

Hazlittle · 31-07-2010 02:48PM

My anarchist buddies would disagree. A small number of people are organising. I'm not naming names. Go find it yourself.

southsiderosie · 31-07-2010 02:59PM

Hazlittle wrote: »

My anarchist buddies would disagree. A small number of people are organising. I'm not naming names. Go find it yourself.

Anarchists are always organizing. They just can't get broad based support for anything. I don't think the electorate wants to see the end of government, they just want to see the back end of THIS government. And, frankly, it's too much work being an anarchist; there are very few people who want to be - or have the time to be - that dedicated.

OP, to go back to your original point, revolt with the end goal of WHAT?

I think the bigger problem is that there are no clear alternatives to the status quo. Sorry FG supporters, but you are essentially FF-lite, and your party leadership is unbelievably inept. Labour has to broaden its base and make it clear that they can develop independent economic policies distinct from SIPTU's. The Greens are dead, and SF is a non-starter for a huge percentage of voters.

And even if there were clear alternatives, there would still be the 'parish pump' political culture..

Iwasfrozen · 31-07-2010 03:06PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing.

Damn organised anarchists!

Hazlittle · 31-07-2010 06:22PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing. They just can't get broad based support for anything. I don't think the electorate wants to see the end of government, they just want to see the back end of THIS government. And, frankly, it's too much work being an anarchist; there are very few people who want to be - or have the time to be - that dedicated.

OP, to go back to your original point, revolt with the end goal of WHAT?

I think the bigger problem is that there are no clear alternatives to the status quo. Sorry FG supporters, but you are essentially FF-lite, and your party leadership is unbelievably inept. Labour has to broaden its base and make it clear that they can develop independent economic policies distinct from SIPTU's. The Greens are dead, and SF is a non-starter for a huge percentage of voters.

And even if there were clear alternatives, there would still be the 'parish pump' political culture..

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

dan_d · 31-07-2010 07:21PM

Actually I think it's even simpler than that.

People in this country need to be taught to see beyond the boundaries of their own local town/county. As do the politicians.

Politicians are in the job for self-gain and little else. Initially they may have entered politics with the idea of serving their country, etc, etc but the way our voting system works, popularity is all that matters. Therefore they fast lose any interest in actually serving their country, and become solely interested in how best to boost their own popularity. This inevitably involves hob-nobbing with local landowners, developers and farmers, as these are the people that deals can be struck with to improve town facilities and make local people happy. National elections come around, and politicians go straight back to the local pub/racecourse/church/parish hall to promote their own wonderfulness by pointing at all the things they managed to "get done" for the town - and won't it get even better if you vote for me?

At no point in the system do they completely break free of the local ties and depend on a vote from strangers at the other end of the country.Which is problem number 1.

As for the people of this fine country - pensioners are still in a time where you voted for the local party that your parents voted for. That's how business got done. There was no country-wide view, no thought of what was good or bad, or what a politician actually achieved - it's "sure isn't he a fine fellow, and his father was before him". This is the system they have always used, and to be honest, they're not going to change now.

The so-called "middle classes" - well, say my parents generation - are, in many cases, likely to follow suit. Although I think there are those who are breaking away from that system, it is still a case of vote for FG or FF and don't try to break the mould.

As for my generation (aged 27) and those behind me? Generations X,Y, Z and whatever other letters the media feel we should be labelled with??
We are totally disinterested to be honest. There's a bunch of men in the Dail and in politics in general, who's ideas and frames of reference are so different to ours, that there's nothing there for us to be interested in. And this particularly applies to the younger 20-somethings, and those coming up behind them. The people in power in this country are mainly middle aged men, many of whom don't know what Facebook is. Not a pre-requisite to be a politician I will admit, but it would help. How on earth can we possibly relate to anything they say,do or think? And absolutely...I'd be the first to volunteer to go out there, and try and change things. But to get into politics in this country, you have to join one of the parties. And not one of those parties have anything that I agree with or am interested in.So where does that leave me? I could try and set up a party, but people will inevitably be suspicious, because it would be new and different. And if you can't succeed locally, you don't succeed around here.

I recently heard Barack Obama make an excellent statement. Whether he believed what he was saying or not, I do not know, but for me it summed up politics. (I'm paraphrasing here, btw) . What he said was that if he makes a decision that he thinks/knows that people won't like and will make him unpopular, but will be good for his country in the long run, then that's what matters to him. He doesn't know what Johnny down the road in Chicago is doing with his apartment block. Nor does Szarkozy know what Pierre from his local village is trying to achieve with the local boules court. They rule their country. Not their local town.

I don't think our politicians have grasped that concept yet.

Stroke Politics · 31-07-2010 07:53PM

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southsiderosie · 31-07-2010 08:02PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Damn organised anarchists!

All that...meeting...and...consensus-building...

Hazlittle wrote: »

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

I didn't mistake you for a communist. Anarchists, quite broadly, are anti-hierarchy and don't believe in government, no? My point was that I don't see anarchism as a viable broader social option; it generally "works" (in so far as it does) for small groups of very dedicated people who have more patience to sit in meetings and discuss things endlessly that I (or most other people) would ever have.

Hazlittle · 31-07-2010 09:02PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

All that...meeting...and...consensus-building...

I didn't mistake you for a communist. Anarchists, quite broadly, are anti-hierarchy and don't believe in government, no? My point was that I don't see anarchism as a viable broader social option; it generally "works" (in so far as it does) for small groups of very dedicated people who have more patience to sit in meetings and discuss things endlessly that I (or most other people) would ever have.

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

Drumpot · 31-07-2010 09:15PM

Yeh . .

Im thinking more that people need guidance but the biggest problem is that the people who could potentially do most for the country know that they couldnt possibly get elected . . There is too much of a bend over the bonnet acceptance by the electorate that you will just have to vote for the least Sh*ttest politician out there ..

We need a leader whom we believe in . . We need a party we can believe in. . We need to elect people who we know will serve our greatest interest . . I am just sick and disgusted that its not really that important to the majority of our voting fellow irishpeople. . .

southsiderosie · 31-07-2010 11:22PM

Hazlittle wrote: »

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

I know what the thread is about. YOU raised the point about anarchists and 'not naming names'.

I don't think there will be a revolt, especially given that over the last year the economy has continued to collapse and the Catholic Church was thrown completely into disrepute, yet the two main issues that people got worked up about were the Henry handball and hunting regulations. If the revolution comes, it will be led by old people, since they seem to be the only ones who can be arsed to show up en masse both on election day and when they are pissed off.

Wino82 · 01-08-2010 01:25AM

of course there won't be a revolt, most irish people are greedy

Scofflaw · 01-08-2010 11:40AM

Hazlittle wrote: »

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

Hazlittle, you're the person doing the most to derail the thread. Please stop. And do try to read other people's posts before writing a response to them.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Madd Finn · 01-08-2010 01:05PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing. .

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

What a bunch of (oxy)morons!!!

MrDarcy · 01-08-2010 01:16PM

I think a major major factor as to why people are not prepared to protest, is because of what we would be replacing the current government with if we protested for an election. The absolute spectacle of the FG attempt to finally rid the country of Enda Kenny as a self declared "Taoiseach in Waiting", the way this ultimately has panned out, with Enda Kenny still at the helm, speaking for myself anyway, there isn't a hope of me protesting for an election or a change in management of the country.

If you think we have problems now, you just wait until you wake up some morning and see Eamon Gilmore running the place, pandering to powerful public sector unions.

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job. Michael Noonan in Finance, the man who cost the state millions in the Hep C scandal and told victims who were dying that he'd fight them every step of the way in court???

Liam Byrne · 01-08-2010 07:18PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job.

That's an opinion that's VERY hard to share.

Iwasfrozen · 01-08-2010 07:28PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's an opinion that's VERY hard to share.

Not really. I would disagree that he is a decent man. And I certainly wouldn't disgree that he is doing a hard job.

littlesthobo · 01-08-2010 07:49PM

Couple of reasons why theres no revolt.

1.The government haven't cut the dole down to a sustainable level. If they did that there would be a revolt as they are the people with the most time on their hands.

2. They keep screwing middle income earners to cut the deficit (and will keep screwing them eg: water charges/ property tax) who are too busy busting theres arses working to pay these new tax's to protest as they cant afford the day off!!

Sand · 02-08-2010 05:28PM

Revolt comes from the middle classes - they pay taxes and have a lot of votes and tend to be the typical floating voters who decide elections.

The poor and unemployed and OAPs can be appeased by bread and circuses, especially in a system as generous as Irelands. And any demands coming from this quarter will simply be for more bread, more circuses. No actual change.

For things to actually change in Ireland, in the way we do things and govern ourselves, the middle classes/SMEs would have to revolt and stop co-operating with the government and refuse to co-operate until reform was introduced that led to a sustainable, honest and efficient state and services. But the middle classes are simply in no position to revolt - theyre in debt, faced with tax hikes, pay cuts and jobs at risk and simply too busy to devote time to organising and too afraid of slipping under to be willing to take risks.

And no politicial party seems to be willing to take the risk of representing them, which would mean offending and angering the insiders. Theres not the slightest iota of change coming from Kenny's Fine Gael or Gilmore's Labour. So long as the middle class continue to submit to being milked, then the dominant question is going to remain who gets the milk and what favours Kenny and Gilmore can exact in return, just as it was before.

Kev_ps3 · 02-08-2010 05:39PM

The poor and unemployed and OAPs can be appeased by bread and circuses,

lol

MrDarcy · 02-08-2010 08:37PM

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place, it's hard to see how we are ever going to pull ourselves out of this. I'm all for protesting and I'd plonk my arse on Kildare Street for a month if I thought that by ejecting this government and replacing it with another one, that we would start getting on top of our problems but the thoughts of Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore running this place actually terrifies the absolute sh*te out of me...

Then I had a brief moment of hope when I saw Richard Bruton stepping up to the plate, what he was saying at the time resonated hugely with me, he had a passion and a spirit that I haven't seen in politics in this country for years, in fact I've never seen it before. Then look at how that panned out, back to the drawing board we go. That was the day the music died for me, so I'll not be protesting for a change of government any time soon because bad and all as we are now, if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

Liam Byrne · 02-08-2010 08:40PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place

Agreed.

MrDarcy wrote: »

if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

There is no way that he could be worse than the current shower.

As bad ? Maybe. But until someone invents the 110%, he definitely couldn't be worse; and I don't think he's as tolerant of corruption, even if he doesn't quite step up to the standard required.

As I've said elsewhere, if Shane Ross could get a few like-minded people behind him, we might have someone genuinely worth voting for; until then it's a case of "best of a bad lot", and that, at the moment, appears to be Kenny & Co.

MrDarcy · 02-08-2010 08:54PM

I think Kenny is just unelectable as Taoiseach. This is the same blubbering buffoon who wanted to compensate everyone from taxi drivers to Eircom shareholders only a few short years ago, he was that desparate to get into power, you wouldn't hear the likes of it in Zimbabwe or some war torn impoverished kip like that riddled with warlords and social dysfunctionality.

Then on the last occasion he was running up and down the country with some big lump of cardboard with the words, "I have a contract", on it, I felt like screaming, "would yourself and your plackard contract just go and take a long jump off the top of Liberty Hall", I was mortified...

Liam Byrne · 02-08-2010 08:59PM

I can certainly see where you're coming from, however someone running around saying they have a contract is a lot more acceptable (and sane) than someone refuting evidence of a forthcoming crash by wondering out loud why the realists don't commit suicide and those who continue to waste billions on corrupt banks.

Is Kenny good enough ? No.

Is he a million times better than FF ? Absolutely.

Is he what we need ? No. As I said above, Ross comes across as sensible and fair.

MrDarcy · 02-08-2010 09:11PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can certainly see where you're coming from, however someone running around saying they have a contract is a lot more acceptable (and sane) than someone refuting evidence of a forthcoming crash by wondering out loud why the realists don't commit suicide and those who continue to waste billions on corrupt banks.

Is Kenny good enough ? No.

Is he a million times better than FF ? Absolutely.

Is he what we need ? No. As I said above, Ross comes across as sensible and fair.

Yeah I hear ye on the suicide remarks. I think thought that for once and for all, we actually have an opportunity to get our house in order in this country, if we were just collectively brave enough to stand up and insist that we wont stand for another bar of this sh*t that is going on. Look at Cowen's latest disaster, squaring up to the electorate over the Donegal by-election and pencilling in 100K of taxpayers money to fight the case. Then Callelly caught out with issuing fake invoices, if Revenue caught you or I at that Liam we'd end up in Cloverhill and where is Cowen, probably on a high stool down in Killarney somewhere.

But where is Kenny??? Haven't heard a mutter out of him, he should be calling people out onto the streets.

unit 1 · 02-08-2010 09:21PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place, it's hard to see how we are ever going to pull ourselves out of this. I'm all for protesting and I'd plonk my arse on Kildare Street for a month if I thought that by ejecting this government and replacing it with another one, that we would start getting on top of our problems but the thoughts of Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore running this place actually terrifies the absolute sh*te out of me...

Then I had a brief moment of hope when I saw Richard Bruton stepping up to the plate, what he was saying at the time resonated hugely with me, he had a passion and a spirit that I haven't seen in politics in this country for years, in fact I've never seen it before. Then look at how that panned out, back to the drawing board we go. That was the day the music died for me, so I'll not be protesting for a change of government any time soon because bad and all as we are now, if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

And if RB had the decency just to wait he would be the next minister of finance, precisely where you would have wanted him. In all fairness RB would be a better minister of finance than taoiseach (unless you want him to do two jobs)
Enda Kenny did a fine job showing just what he is made of, a man to make decisions, one of which would have been to make RB minister of finance.
His detractors just wont admit their main gripe against Kenny, his accent.

BTW there will be no revolt untill the middle classes have nothing left to lose, and believe it or not there are still a great many of them that are still quids in from the boom. The question is will FF have the balls to gut them with property tax or will they let FG carry the can for its inevitable introduction

Liam Byrne · 02-08-2010 09:27PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

Yeah I hear ye on the suicide remarks. I think thought that for once and for all, we actually have an opportunity to get our house in order in this country, if we were just collectively brave enough to stand up and insist that we wont stand for another bar of this sh*t that is going on. Look at Cowen's latest disaster, squaring up to the electorate over the Donegal by-election and pencilling in 100K of taxpayers money to fight the case. Then Callelly caught out with issuing fake invoices, if Revenue caught you or I at that Liam we'd end up in Cloverhill and where is Cowen, probably on a high stool down in Killarney somewhere.

But where is Kenny??? Haven't heard a mutter out of him, he should be calling people out onto the streets.

Look, there's no argument here. The only person that I've seen speaking out is Ross, and he was basically told to "f**k off and mind his own business" by the Government-appointed so-called public interest representative.

But - as I said above - there's little point targetting Kenny's shortcomings while - as you say - Cowen supports and condones and votes confidence in such goings-on within his own party.

It's actually proof of what I was saying; that Kenny is poor, but still better than Cowen.

The sad thing is that it only requires a few decent people like Ross to call a halt and offer people a decent political alternative.

The reason why there is no change or revolt . .

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