The reason why there is no change or revolt . .

Drumpot

People on boards.ie wounder why there are no revolts or change in politics in Ireland.

Its simple, most people just dont want change and dont want to actually have to feel any pain , pain that a revolt may cause.

On one hand we have those who are relatively poor, but through a very generous social welfare system they can survive comfortably, even more comfortably then the working class in many cases (certainly mine!). Why would they want change?

Then you have the working class who are just trying to get by. They , more then anybody desire change as they are ones left carrying the real burden of society and the ones carrying the can for the country. When people talk of "sharing the pain" its this section of society that will pay the most in hardship. People assume paying the most money means you pay the most, its how it effects your life that is how one can truely gauge the true cost paid.

Then you have those in ivory towers who take what they have for granted and wouldnt want to change a society that facilitates their every whim (without ramifications of their mistakes).

Then you have the pensioners who have so much free time they could march everyday to the Dail (and would). They feel like the rest of us should take the pain for the mistakes that the electorate made. They are a taboo topic and its difficult for anybody to discuss them impartially because if you say that they should not be spared when savings have to be made in the budget you are automatically attacked. I take exception when OAP's say they have served the state and shouldnt have to pay for the mistakes of the government. While it suited them they voted in the government that screwed us all just as much as the rest of the population.

In truth the problem is that the people of our country dont really care about anything other then themselves. They have no long term objectives other then increasing their own personal wealth. In general, principles and morals will be dropped at a hat. How is this clearly apparant ? Because its what we get from pretty much all elected T.D's in all parties and they are voted in by the electorate. Governments and politicians DO mirror their people in democracy's. Joe Higgins is the nearest this country has to a a politcian with strong ethical and moral beliefs that he practises. I am not a supporter of him, but think that he's as clean cut a politician that there is out there.

Instead of looking for change all our people do is bitch and moan and cry foul at how helpless they are . . If enough people demanded accountability they would get it. . . If people didnt want the cute hoor's in politics they wouldnt re elect obvious criminals who use loopholes to screw the state. . "Ah but sure I was living here" or "Ah but sure I was entitled to it" . . Why are these acceptable explanations ?

People are so disillusioned with most (if not all) politicians, they have given up hope of true change ever happening. We need more moral leaders in politics. But that has to start from society considering morals and ethics as integral to their progression. Dont ask your local politician just what he can do for you when he knocks on your door for your vote. Ask him how he can prove to you that he has moral leadership and courage to stand up to the obviously disgraceful lack of accountability. What will he do to change the wink wink , nudge nudge, wag the dog to take focus off dodgy discrepancies that exist in business and political circles?

Only when we begin to challenge conventional wisdom will we DESERVE a better government .

Denerick

The reason people don't want protests or revolt is because most protesters and revolters are ignominious morons you're refuse to give a lift to in your car. The hive mentality of the protest mind is rather queasy, when you interfer with the surface.

newfrontier

Good analysis..but you have to do something or we will forever be caught in this ridiculous setup. How ? By forming a community who want change and are prepared to act to achieve change ,standing idly by is not an option!!

racso1975

Tell me how you plan to revolt? What do you plan on doing? How are you going to do it etc etc

mikemac

Every worthwhile proteset is hijacked.

I remember a few months ago the march to the Dail.
Fintan O'Toole was a speaker in Parnell Sq, that's where it started. I attended that part.
Sinn Fein, People before Profit and many other banners were there. Fair enough, their supporters can go.

We turn on the news and watch people rushing gardai at the Dail entrance and then screaming garda brutality. :rolleyes:

The next week there was a small protest outside Anglo Irish HQ.
And two girls put on fake blood to get attention and imply the gardai assaulted them. They admitted they used fake blood on RTE radio afterwards.

Protesting outside the Dáil and Anglo Irish are acceptable things to do if it's organized and gardai are informed.

But I wouldn't attend with the likes of messing from every party volunteer on the bandwagon, hippie and anarchist that attends.

Hazlittle

My anarchist buddies would disagree. A small number of people are organising. I'm not naming names. Go find it yourself.

southsiderosie

Hazlittle wrote: »

My anarchist buddies would disagree. A small number of people are organising. I'm not naming names. Go find it yourself.

Anarchists are always organizing. They just can't get broad based support for anything. I don't think the electorate wants to see the end of government, they just want to see the back end of THIS government. And, frankly, it's too much work being an anarchist; there are very few people who want to be - or have the time to be - that dedicated.

OP, to go back to your original point, revolt with the end goal of WHAT?

I think the bigger problem is that there are no clear alternatives to the status quo. Sorry FG supporters, but you are essentially FF-lite, and your party leadership is unbelievably inept. Labour has to broaden its base and make it clear that they can develop independent economic policies distinct from SIPTU's. The Greens are dead, and SF is a non-starter for a huge percentage of voters.

And even if there were clear alternatives, there would still be the 'parish pump' political culture..

Iwasfrozen

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing.

Damn organised anarchists!

Hazlittle

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing. They just can't get broad based support for anything. I don't think the electorate wants to see the end of government, they just want to see the back end of THIS government. And, frankly, it's too much work being an anarchist; there are very few people who want to be - or have the time to be - that dedicated.

OP, to go back to your original point, revolt with the end goal of WHAT?

I think the bigger problem is that there are no clear alternatives to the status quo. Sorry FG supporters, but you are essentially FF-lite, and your party leadership is unbelievably inept. Labour has to broaden its base and make it clear that they can develop independent economic policies distinct from SIPTU's. The Greens are dead, and SF is a non-starter for a huge percentage of voters.

And even if there were clear alternatives, there would still be the 'parish pump' political culture..

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

dan_d

Actually I think it's even simpler than that.

People in this country need to be taught to see beyond the boundaries of their own local town/county. As do the politicians.

Politicians are in the job for self-gain and little else. Initially they may have entered politics with the idea of serving their country, etc, etc but the way our voting system works, popularity is all that matters. Therefore they fast lose any interest in actually serving their country, and become solely interested in how best to boost their own popularity. This inevitably involves hob-nobbing with local landowners, developers and farmers, as these are the people that deals can be struck with to improve town facilities and make local people happy. National elections come around, and politicians go straight back to the local pub/racecourse/church/parish hall to promote their own wonderfulness by pointing at all the things they managed to "get done" for the town - and won't it get even better if you vote for me?

At no point in the system do they completely break free of the local ties and depend on a vote from strangers at the other end of the country.Which is problem number 1.

As for the people of this fine country - pensioners are still in a time where you voted for the local party that your parents voted for. That's how business got done. There was no country-wide view, no thought of what was good or bad, or what a politician actually achieved - it's "sure isn't he a fine fellow, and his father was before him". This is the system they have always used, and to be honest, they're not going to change now.

The so-called "middle classes" - well, say my parents generation - are, in many cases, likely to follow suit. Although I think there are those who are breaking away from that system, it is still a case of vote for FG or FF and don't try to break the mould.

As for my generation (aged 27) and those behind me? Generations X,Y, Z and whatever other letters the media feel we should be labelled with??
We are totally disinterested to be honest. There's a bunch of men in the Dail and in politics in general, who's ideas and frames of reference are so different to ours, that there's nothing there for us to be interested in. And this particularly applies to the younger 20-somethings, and those coming up behind them. The people in power in this country are mainly middle aged men, many of whom don't know what Facebook is. Not a pre-requisite to be a politician I will admit, but it would help. How on earth can we possibly relate to anything they say,do or think? And absolutely...I'd be the first to volunteer to go out there, and try and change things. But to get into politics in this country, you have to join one of the parties. And not one of those parties have anything that I agree with or am interested in.So where does that leave me? I could try and set up a party, but people will inevitably be suspicious, because it would be new and different. And if you can't succeed locally, you don't succeed around here.

I recently heard Barack Obama make an excellent statement. Whether he believed what he was saying or not, I do not know, but for me it summed up politics. (I'm paraphrasing here, btw) . What he said was that if he makes a decision that he thinks/knows that people won't like and will make him unpopular, but will be good for his country in the long run, then that's what matters to him. He doesn't know what Johnny down the road in Chicago is doing with his apartment block. Nor does Szarkozy know what Pierre from his local village is trying to achieve with the local boules court. They rule their country. Not their local town.

I don't think our politicians have grasped that concept yet.

Stroke Politics

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southsiderosie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Damn organised anarchists!

All that...meeting...and...consensus-building...

Hazlittle wrote: »

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

I didn't mistake you for a communist. Anarchists, quite broadly, are anti-hierarchy and don't believe in government, no? My point was that I don't see anarchism as a viable broader social option; it generally "works" (in so far as it does) for small groups of very dedicated people who have more patience to sit in meetings and discuss things endlessly that I (or most other people) would ever have.

Hazlittle

southsiderosie wrote: »

All that...meeting...and...consensus-building...



I didn't mistake you for a communist. Anarchists, quite broadly, are anti-hierarchy and don't believe in government, no? My point was that I don't see anarchism as a viable broader social option; it generally "works" (in so far as it does) for small groups of very dedicated people who have more patience to sit in meetings and discuss things endlessly that I (or most other people) would ever have.

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

Drumpot

Yeh . .

Im thinking more that people need guidance but the biggest problem is that the people who could potentially do most for the country know that they couldnt possibly get elected . . There is too much of a bend over the bonnet acceptance by the electorate that you will just have to vote for the least Sh*ttest politician out there ..

We need a leader whom we believe in . . We need a party we can believe in. . We need to elect people who we know will serve our greatest interest . . I am just sick and disgusted that its not really that important to the majority of our voting fellow irishpeople. . .

southsiderosie

Hazlittle wrote: »

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

I know what the thread is about. YOU raised the point about anarchists and 'not naming names'.

I don't think there will be a revolt, especially given that over the last year the economy has continued to collapse and the Catholic Church was thrown completely into disrepute, yet the two main issues that people got worked up about were the Henry handball and hunting regulations. If the revolution comes, it will be led by old people, since they seem to be the only ones who can be arsed to show up en masse both on election day and when they are pissed off.

Wino82

of course there won't be a revolt, most irish people are greedy

Scofflaw

Hazlittle wrote: »

there is already a thread on anarchy. This is a thread about why there is or is not a revolt coming.

Hazlittle, you're the person doing the most to derail the thread. Please stop. And do try to read other people's posts before writing a response to them.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Madd Finn

southsiderosie wrote: »

Anarchists are always organizing. .

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

What a bunch of (oxy)morons!!!

MrDarcy

I think a major major factor as to why people are not prepared to protest, is because of what we would be replacing the current government with if we protested for an election. The absolute spectacle of the FG attempt to finally rid the country of Enda Kenny as a self declared "Taoiseach in Waiting", the way this ultimately has panned out, with Enda Kenny still at the helm, speaking for myself anyway, there isn't a hope of me protesting for an election or a change in management of the country.

If you think we have problems now, you just wait until you wake up some morning and see Eamon Gilmore running the place, pandering to powerful public sector unions.

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job. Michael Noonan in Finance, the man who cost the state millions in the Hep C scandal and told victims who were dying that he'd fight them every step of the way in court???

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job.

That's an opinion that's VERY hard to share.

Iwasfrozen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's an opinion that's VERY hard to share.

Not really. I would disagree that he is a decent man. And I certainly wouldn't disgree that he is doing a hard job.

littlesthobo

Couple of reasons why theres no revolt.

1.The government haven't cut the dole down to a sustainable level. If they did that there would be a revolt as they are the people with the most time on their hands.

2. They keep screwing middle income earners to cut the deficit (and will keep screwing them eg: water charges/ property tax) who are too busy busting theres arses working to pay these new tax's to protest as they cant afford the day off!!

Sand

Revolt comes from the middle classes - they pay taxes and have a lot of votes and tend to be the typical floating voters who decide elections.

The poor and unemployed and OAPs can be appeased by bread and circuses, especially in a system as generous as Irelands. And any demands coming from this quarter will simply be for more bread, more circuses. No actual change.

For things to actually change in Ireland, in the way we do things and govern ourselves, the middle classes/SMEs would have to revolt and stop co-operating with the government and refuse to co-operate until reform was introduced that led to a sustainable, honest and efficient state and services. But the middle classes are simply in no position to revolt - theyre in debt, faced with tax hikes, pay cuts and jobs at risk and simply too busy to devote time to organising and too afraid of slipping under to be willing to take risks.

And no politicial party seems to be willing to take the risk of representing them, which would mean offending and angering the insiders. Theres not the slightest iota of change coming from Kenny's Fine Gael or Gilmore's Labour. So long as the middle class continue to submit to being milked, then the dominant question is going to remain who gets the milk and what favours Kenny and Gilmore can exact in return, just as it was before.

Kev_ps3

The poor and unemployed and OAPs can be appeased by bread and circuses,

lol

MrDarcy

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place, it's hard to see how we are ever going to pull ourselves out of this. I'm all for protesting and I'd plonk my arse on Kildare Street for a month if I thought that by ejecting this government and replacing it with another one, that we would start getting on top of our problems but the thoughts of Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore running this place actually terrifies the absolute sh*te out of me...

Then I had a brief moment of hope when I saw Richard Bruton stepping up to the plate, what he was saying at the time resonated hugely with me, he had a passion and a spirit that I haven't seen in politics in this country for years, in fact I've never seen it before. Then look at how that panned out, back to the drawing board we go. That was the day the music died for me, so I'll not be protesting for a change of government any time soon because bad and all as we are now, if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place

Agreed.

MrDarcy wrote: »

if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

There is no way that he could be worse than the current shower.

As bad ? Maybe. But until someone invents the 110%, he definitely couldn't be worse; and I don't think he's as tolerant of corruption, even if he doesn't quite step up to the standard required.

As I've said elsewhere, if Shane Ross could get a few like-minded people behind him, we might have someone genuinely worth voting for; until then it's a case of "best of a bad lot", and that, at the moment, appears to be Kenny & Co.

MrDarcy

I think Kenny is just unelectable as Taoiseach. This is the same blubbering buffoon who wanted to compensate everyone from taxi drivers to Eircom shareholders only a few short years ago, he was that desparate to get into power, you wouldn't hear the likes of it in Zimbabwe or some war torn impoverished kip like that riddled with warlords and social dysfunctionality.

Then on the last occasion he was running up and down the country with some big lump of cardboard with the words, "I have a contract", on it, I felt like screaming, "would yourself and your plackard contract just go and take a long jump off the top of Liberty Hall", I was mortified...

Liam Byrne

I can certainly see where you're coming from, however someone running around saying they have a contract is a lot more acceptable (and sane) than someone refuting evidence of a forthcoming crash by wondering out loud why the realists don't commit suicide and those who continue to waste billions on corrupt banks.

Is Kenny good enough ? No.

Is he a million times better than FF ? Absolutely.

Is he what we need ? No. As I said above, Ross comes across as sensible and fair.

MrDarcy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can certainly see where you're coming from, however someone running around saying they have a contract is a lot more acceptable (and sane) than someone refuting evidence of a forthcoming crash by wondering out loud why the realists don't commit suicide and those who continue to waste billions on corrupt banks.

Is Kenny good enough ? No.

Is he a million times better than FF ? Absolutely.

Is he what we need ? No. As I said above, Ross comes across as sensible and fair.

Yeah I hear ye on the suicide remarks. I think thought that for once and for all, we actually have an opportunity to get our house in order in this country, if we were just collectively brave enough to stand up and insist that we wont stand for another bar of this sh*t that is going on. Look at Cowen's latest disaster, squaring up to the electorate over the Donegal by-election and pencilling in 100K of taxpayers money to fight the case. Then Callelly caught out with issuing fake invoices, if Revenue caught you or I at that Liam we'd end up in Cloverhill and where is Cowen, probably on a high stool down in Killarney somewhere.

But where is Kenny??? Haven't heard a mutter out of him, he should be calling people out onto the streets.

unit 1

MrDarcy wrote: »

We really are between a rock and a very very hard place, it's hard to see how we are ever going to pull ourselves out of this. I'm all for protesting and I'd plonk my arse on Kildare Street for a month if I thought that by ejecting this government and replacing it with another one, that we would start getting on top of our problems but the thoughts of Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore running this place actually terrifies the absolute sh*te out of me...

Then I had a brief moment of hope when I saw Richard Bruton stepping up to the plate, what he was saying at the time resonated hugely with me, he had a passion and a spirit that I haven't seen in politics in this country for years, in fact I've never seen it before. Then look at how that panned out, back to the drawing board we go. That was the day the music died for me, so I'll not be protesting for a change of government any time soon because bad and all as we are now, if Enda Kenny ends up leading this country you may as well get on the next 747 to America, the guy is an utter buffoon who belongs down in a field in Mayo somewhere making haystacks, the fact that he is still sh*teing on about wanting to be Taoiseach is nothing less than an affront to every citizen of this country.

And if RB had the decency just to wait he would be the next minister of finance, precisely where you would have wanted him. In all fairness RB would be a better minister of finance than taoiseach (unless you want him to do two jobs)
Enda Kenny did a fine job showing just what he is made of, a man to make decisions, one of which would have been to make RB minister of finance.
His detractors just wont admit their main gripe against Kenny, his accent.

BTW there will be no revolt untill the middle classes have nothing left to lose, and believe it or not there are still a great many of them that are still quids in from the boom. The question is will FF have the balls to gut them with property tax or will they let FG carry the can for its inevitable introduction

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

Yeah I hear ye on the suicide remarks. I think thought that for once and for all, we actually have an opportunity to get our house in order in this country, if we were just collectively brave enough to stand up and insist that we wont stand for another bar of this sh*t that is going on. Look at Cowen's latest disaster, squaring up to the electorate over the Donegal by-election and pencilling in 100K of taxpayers money to fight the case. Then Callelly caught out with issuing fake invoices, if Revenue caught you or I at that Liam we'd end up in Cloverhill and where is Cowen, probably on a high stool down in Killarney somewhere.

But where is Kenny??? Haven't heard a mutter out of him, he should be calling people out onto the streets.

Look, there's no argument here. The only person that I've seen speaking out is Ross, and he was basically told to "f**k off and mind his own business" by the Government-appointed so-called public interest representative.

But - as I said above - there's little point targetting Kenny's shortcomings while - as you say - Cowen supports and condones and votes confidence in such goings-on within his own party.

It's actually proof of what I was saying; that Kenny is poor, but still better than Cowen.

The sad thing is that it only requires a few decent people like Ross to call a halt and offer people a decent political alternative.

MrDarcy

unit 1 wrote: »

And if RB had the decency just to wait he would be the next minister of finance, precisely where you would have wanted him. In all fairness RB would be a better minister of finance than taoiseach (unless you want him to do two jobs)
Enda Kenny did a fine job showing just what he is made of, a man to make decisions, one of which would have been to make RB minister of finance.
His detractors just wont admit their main gripe against Kenny, his accent.

BTW there will be no revolt untill the middle classes have nothing left to lose, and believe it or not there are still a great many of them that are still quids in from the boom. The question is will FF have the balls to gut them with property tax or will they let FG carry the can for its inevitable introduction

I have no issue with his accent. I have an issue with him coming out and using MY money, to bail out people who thought it would be a good idea to buy shares in what was basically a public sector, union controlled, backward, over priced business called Eircom. When you invest, you take a punt on something, it is no different than going into Paddy Power and backing a horse, why on earth should someone who takes a punt be bailed out if they make a stupid investment decision???

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

The same auld caper was going on in this leadership heave, basically vote buying by promising people who would back him, front bench positions, the whole thing stinks.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

OK. So we've established that we need better than Kenny.....your points about his bailout with our money is a fair one; Cowen & Lenihan insanely do likewise with our money for for bankers and other gamblers.

So who would you suggest SHOULD be given power ?

I can accept Kenny as the best of a bad lot, but I'd love better.

Who would that be ?

MrDarcy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK. So we've established that we need better than Kenny.....your points about his bailout with our money is a fair one; Cowen & Lenihan insanely do likewise with our money for for bankers and other gamblers.

So who would you suggest SHOULD be given power ?

I can accept Kenny as the best of a bad lot, but I'd love better.

Who would that be ?

Well the best of a bad lot just doesn't cut it with me at all... I refuse to be party to that rationality, if the people of this country tolerate this level of competence, then the obvious outcome as we all now know well, is that the country ends up being a sh*theap. So things will get worse and worse and worse and EVENTUALLY, we will be forced to face up to our own direct involvement at individual citizen level, in this crisis that we find ourselves in. When people stop voting for the Cowen's, Gilmore's, Kenny's and people with no actual leadership abilities whatsoever, then maybe we will start getting somewhere.

My vote on the next occasion will be going to an independent candidate and if we all did that, there would be no problem, and we would also get much better debates and national decisions, as we'd have no imposed party whip decisions and TD's would have to work together in a real and meaningful way to get stuff done.

unit 1

MrDarcy wrote: »

I have no issue with his accent. I have an issue with him coming out and using MY money, to bail out people who thought it would be a good idea to buy shares in what was basically a public sector, union controlled, backward, over priced business called Eircom. When you invest, you take a punt on something, it is no different than going into Paddy Power and backing a horse, why on earth should someone who takes a punt be bailed out if they make a stupid investment decision???

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

The same auld caper was going on in this leadership heave, basically vote buying by promising people who would back him, front bench positions, the whole thing stinks.

To be fair they might have taken control of eircom or renationalised it, and run it in a different way to FF, ie run it for the benefit of the country. In any case it could'nt have been any worse than eircom as it is.
Picking on Kenny's previous proposals, I assume you also agree he was wrong about benchmarking being a bad idea.
I notice people can be very selective about Kenny's previous proposals, always focusing on daft election promises that we all know are only a bit of fluff, but ignoring the commonsense ones in favour of berties twaddle.

jmayo

Hazlittle wrote: »

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

We had enough f**king building, thank you very much.

MrDarcy wrote: »

I think a major major factor as to why people are not prepared to protest, is because of what we would be replacing the current government with if we protested for an election. The absolute spectacle of the FG attempt to finally rid the country of Enda Kenny as a self declared "Taoiseach in Waiting", the way this ultimately has panned out, with Enda Kenny still at the helm, speaking for myself anyway, there isn't a hope of me protesting for an election or a change in management of the country.

If you think we have problems now, you just wait until you wake up some morning and see Eamon Gilmore running the place, pandering to powerful public sector unions.

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job. Michael Noonan in Finance, the man who cost the state millions in the Hep C scandal and told victims who were dying that he'd fight them every step of the way in court???

You know that posts reads like the usual "I am pretending to be objective about who is in power, but I am really ff" . :rolleyes:

If you were objective you would not think lenihan was decent or maybe you have no problem with high ranking minister, senior legal consel and former law lecturer condoning lying on sworn affadivits, by fellow legal professional and minister, to the second highest court in the land ?

And that is before you ever get me started on the fact he has signed away the futures of the taxpayers of this country on bailing out insolvent corruptly (morally ethically if not criminally) run banks. :mad:

BTW whilst I don't agree with the way Noonan handled the Hep C affair, I think the costs he has inflicted on the Irish taxpayer is miniscule in comparison to those inflicted by ff and their cronyism.

BTW your talking up of the usual media favourite Bruton (passion and spirit :rolleyes:) just goes to show how deluded you really are.
The guy did not have it and if he couldn't manage to get rid of the guy you label as a blubbering inept eejit, then how the f**k would he be able to lead the country ?

BTW on topic, as others have said a revolt will only occurr when the middle classes have had enough paying for everyone else.
Some will just quietly leave and decide to make a life elsewhere.
A lot who can't leave will have to suffer along, but make sure their kids get to f*** out of the banana republic to build better lives for themselves elsewhere.
I am probably in this group.
Some others will make sure they are in with the right party, usually ff, to ensure their kids get to suck at the teats of the public sector.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

pablo_escobar

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

while i do agree with this statement, since we're discussing ireland, what private sector are you referring to?

it's my understanding most of the multi-national companies operating in ireland and creating jobs are receiving huge subsidies, paid for by the irish tax payer..or atleast using borrowed money from the ECB with the guarantee irish people will pay it back.

more over, are the banks not currently supported by irish tax payers?
is the failure of banks the result of government interference or not enough?

MrDarcy

jmayo wrote: »

We had enough f**king building, thank you very much.



You know that posts reads like the usual "I am pretending to be objective about who is in power, but I am really ff" . :rolleyes:

If you were objective you would not think lenihan was decent or maybe you have no problem with high ranking minister, senior legal consel and former law lecturer condoning lying on sworn affadivits, by fellow legal professional and minister, to the second highest court in the land ?

And that is before you ever get me started on the fact he has signed away the futures of the taxpayers of this country on bailing out insolvent corruptly (morally ethically if not criminally) run banks. :mad:

BTW whilst I don't agree with the way Noonan handled the Hep C affair, I think the costs he has inflicted on the Irish taxpayer is miniscule in comparison to those inflicted by ff and their cronyism.

BTW your talking up of the usual media favourite Bruton (passion and spirit :rolleyes:) just goes to show how deluded you really are.
The guy did not have it and if he couldn't manage to get rid of the guy you label as a blubbering inept eejit, then how the f**k would he be able to lead the country ?

BTW on topic, as others have said a revolt will only occurr when the middle classes have had enough paying for everyone else.
Some will just quietly leave and decide to make a life elsewhere.
A lot who can't leave will have to suffer along, but make sure their kids get to f*** out of the banana republic to build better lives for themselves elsewhere.
I am probably in this group.
Some others will make sure they are in with the right party, usually ff, to ensure their kids get to suck at the teats of the public sector.

I can assure you that I'm no Fianna Fail man. On the next occasion, the first person from FF to come near my door is going to get handhandled off my property.

My issue is not so much with FF, it's the whole political spectrum that is polluted. At least Lenihan stood up to the public sector unions, for this reason and non other, I would tend to be supportive of him.

However wasn't it the same party that entered into stupid social partnership arrangements over the last 12 odd years that have brought us to where we are now, spendinging twice what we are taking in???

My point remains that I althought there would be no better buachal than myself for getting into a scrap with a government, there must be a purpose to it.

Fine Gael have failed this country by putting forth and maintaining an idiot leader that is unelectable to the highest office in the country, the hopes of a generation have been distroyed in this regard. This is a deadly serious business, we need vision, passion, energy, courage, and we need it yesterday... The needs of the country MUST be placed above the clearly flawed view of one man that he was born to be leader of this country. I'd argue that anyone coming out with that kind of rubbish should be immediately disqualified from running for the office. He is to politics what Ricky Gervais is to people management.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

Fine Gael have failed this country by putting forth and maintaining an idiot leader that is unelectable to the highest office in the country, the hopes of a generation have been distroyed in this regard.

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

Manach

pablo_escobar wrote: »

while i do agree with this statement, since we're discussing ireland, what private sector are you referring to?

it's my understanding most of the multi-national companies operating in ireland and creating jobs are receiving huge subsidies, paid for by the irish tax payer..or atleast using borrowed money from the ECB with the guarantee irish people will pay it back.

more over, are the banks not currently supported by irish tax payers?
is the failure of banks the result of government interference or not enough?

Off topic: That would be, from my experience, the IT Sector which are amongst the more productive (and unsupported by government) part of the private sector.

On topic: speaking as a historian, it is easy enough to start a revolt, getting it to end that is the interesting part.

Sleepy

We'll have no change or revolt because the vast majority of this country are too stupid to see the national picture instead of the local, too selfish to give up what they've been let believe they're entitled to, are utter imbeciles when it comes to economics and / or are too broke and stressed to do anything but struggle to keep their head above water.

The only means I can see of changing things is routine assassination of the Callellys, Aherns and anyone else found with their hands in the till / opposing proper electoral reform etc. Make them too scared to be corrupt. I'm no sharpshooter and to be honest, I'm not prepared to martyr myself for the idiots I described in my first paragraph but it's the only way I can see for the minority of Irish citizens who know better (as arrogant as that sounds) to fix the place. I'm not advocating it by the way. I just can't see a legal / political means of getting the job done.

pablo_escobar

Manach wrote:

Off topic: That would be, from my experience, the IT Sector which are amongst the more productive (and unsupported by government) part of the private sector.

I won't speculate on where you work but i'd dispute tax payer NOT funding the IT sector in Ireland atleast 90%

Let's take Government departments in general as example.

Anyone who's worked inside a large institution will be aware of hardware, software maintenance and technical support costs.

The naive approach is to argue "look at how much it costs the public sector, private sector would do it more efficiently"

*sigh* There's an awful amount of ignorance here when people argue this because it's private companies who provide the software maintenance, hardware and technical support.

The employees in the government are not skilled or experienced to deal with software, hardware or technical faults in a system.

On topic: speaking as a historian, it is easy enough to start a revolt, getting it to end that is the interesting part.

It's safe to presume the Gardai wouldn't be around to protect people.

Sleepy

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The naive approach is to argue "look at how much it costs the public sector, private sector would do it more efficiently"

Why is that naieve? It's fact. Private companies demand more from their suppliers, leverage any opportunities to bulk buy they can, look for the most affordable option etc. etc. etc.

For the most part, the Public Sector fails to do this.

*sigh* There's an awful amount of ignorance here when people argue this because it's private companies who provide the software maintenance, hardware and technical support.

The employees in the government are not skilled or experienced to deal with software, hardware or technical faults in a system.

Why aren't they? The level of certification in the Public Sector is very high, the training supports vastly superior to those in most of the private Sector.

You underestimate Public Sector IT departments by the way. Many do maintain their own networks, servers and systems. Some of them do it incredibly well (from personal experience the NTMA IT staff are among the best I've worked with), others squander money left right and centre over-speccing hardware in order to have a play with the latest technologies, replacing perfectly functional PC's / Laptops because Bill in Finance likes shiny new things, acquiring site licenses for software packages rather than going to the hassle of auditing actual requirements etc.

The reason the waste is there is because it's tolerated. No one at the top is hit in the back pocket if money is wasted. In a private company, if I acquire an extra license we don't need that hurts profits and when that's followed down the line, it'll hurt my chances at a raise / of keeping my job. That motivator is missing in the Public Sector.

MrDarcy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

This is where we just disagree... I think we need to start coming to a place in our heads in this country where we are not going to be content with something that is just a little bit less useful than those that are currently running the country.

We need to start talking a different language in this country I think, we need to start having enormously different positions on what our actual expectations are to be.

I, speaking for myself, see now reason WHATSOEVER, why we can not set out a new social model that everyone in the country can subscribe to, where we start looking at things like this:

We DEMAND that our public services AT ALL TIMES are run and administered in a manner that makes Ryanair efficiencies look like a Fianna Fail tent banquet in Ballybrit. We adopt a model where we embrace transparency in relation to our costs, operations and delivery of all public services and we accept nothing less than every single year, to have delivered to us, a VERIFIABLE increase in productivity and a reduction in costs, regardless of whether the state is in a recession or a period of growth.

We stop rewarding failures. If you are running a semi-state such as FAS, or you are a public representative, then you can be charged for an offence along the lines of "gross incompetence causing national financial loss over a certain amount", and you are SACKED when you are found guilty. No pension top up's, so fannying around with 20 day suspensions, no "ah sure I'll hang around 'til 2011 sure haven't I got my Seanad seat", you are GONE. AND you'll have to repay the amount that was lost in the case of misappropriation as is the case with Callely.

We need to up the bar in this country BIG TIME I think folks, or we literally are finished.

We also need to sort out our much covetted constitution to mandate for by-elections to be held within 90 days of a Dail seat becoming vacant and also to mandate for the removal of TD's and Senator's who have discraced their own office.

There is nothing whatsoever inherently unconstitutional about firing someone who is corrupt and putting it back to their constituency to elect a new TD amongst themselves within 90 days because the last one they sent up had to be gated because he/she was found guilty of being on the take and thereby robbing their constituents of their own money. That to me is just common sense and good practice.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

Never elected as leader?

dan_d

An article from today's Indo, which sums up the whole situation (and my thoughts on Irish politics) very, very well.

I should point out that I am not a fan of the Indo at all, however this article hits the nail on the head.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/martina-devlin/martina-devlin-wake-up-and-save-this-rotting-republic-of-greed-2284658.html

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Never elected as leader?

If you're going to try to misrepresent, please don't do so so ridiculously blatantly. :rolleyes:

never elected as leader of this country

Wide Road

Ok Liam, "never elected leader of this country". What's your point?

Wide Road

Well Liam. What is your point?

Rabble Rabble

The OP's points have not been bettered. No revolt because:

1) the social welfare classes have little to worry about.
2) the broad working classes ( the private sector PAYE sector) are too busy getting on with their lives.
3) The old age pensioners have time but are not going to really lead a "revolution". In any case that particular generation is sitting pretty compared to the rest of us.
4) Public servants have pretty much swallowed the pain - to their credit.

And Ireland does not have a history of revolt outside of nationalistic revolts. Greece still has some romantic anarchists hanging about, rather strangely they are appalled by the recent reduction in the size of the greek State.

Statist Marxism appears to be dead.

Hard to see a revolution. I suppose the real question is why no revolt through the democratic process, why no new party committed to bringing people to justice? To selling off the banks. To renegotiating NAMA?

On that question, I have no idea beyond my list. Maybe we are too much diffuse and unsociable these days, the idea of setting up a new party doesnt work in the modern age, the internet keeps us at home.