The reason why there is no change or revolt . .

MrDarcy

unit 1 wrote: »

And if RB had the decency just to wait he would be the next minister of finance, precisely where you would have wanted him. In all fairness RB would be a better minister of finance than taoiseach (unless you want him to do two jobs)
Enda Kenny did a fine job showing just what he is made of, a man to make decisions, one of which would have been to make RB minister of finance.
His detractors just wont admit their main gripe against Kenny, his accent.

BTW there will be no revolt untill the middle classes have nothing left to lose, and believe it or not there are still a great many of them that are still quids in from the boom. The question is will FF have the balls to gut them with property tax or will they let FG carry the can for its inevitable introduction

I have no issue with his accent. I have an issue with him coming out and using MY money, to bail out people who thought it would be a good idea to buy shares in what was basically a public sector, union controlled, backward, over priced business called Eircom. When you invest, you take a punt on something, it is no different than going into Paddy Power and backing a horse, why on earth should someone who takes a punt be bailed out if they make a stupid investment decision???

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

The same auld caper was going on in this leadership heave, basically vote buying by promising people who would back him, front bench positions, the whole thing stinks.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

OK. So we've established that we need better than Kenny.....your points about his bailout with our money is a fair one; Cowen & Lenihan insanely do likewise with our money for for bankers and other gamblers.

So who would you suggest SHOULD be given power ?

I can accept Kenny as the best of a bad lot, but I'd love better.

Who would that be ?

MrDarcy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK. So we've established that we need better than Kenny.....your points about his bailout with our money is a fair one; Cowen & Lenihan insanely do likewise with our money for for bankers and other gamblers.

So who would you suggest SHOULD be given power ?

I can accept Kenny as the best of a bad lot, but I'd love better.

Who would that be ?

Well the best of a bad lot just doesn't cut it with me at all... I refuse to be party to that rationality, if the people of this country tolerate this level of competence, then the obvious outcome as we all now know well, is that the country ends up being a sh*theap. So things will get worse and worse and worse and EVENTUALLY, we will be forced to face up to our own direct involvement at individual citizen level, in this crisis that we find ourselves in. When people stop voting for the Cowen's, Gilmore's, Kenny's and people with no actual leadership abilities whatsoever, then maybe we will start getting somewhere.

My vote on the next occasion will be going to an independent candidate and if we all did that, there would be no problem, and we would also get much better debates and national decisions, as we'd have no imposed party whip decisions and TD's would have to work together in a real and meaningful way to get stuff done.

unit 1

MrDarcy wrote: »

I have no issue with his accent. I have an issue with him coming out and using MY money, to bail out people who thought it would be a good idea to buy shares in what was basically a public sector, union controlled, backward, over priced business called Eircom. When you invest, you take a punt on something, it is no different than going into Paddy Power and backing a horse, why on earth should someone who takes a punt be bailed out if they make a stupid investment decision???

Running a country is a serious business as we now all know and people like Kenny with insane ideas such as the above, shouldn't be let next nor near the national executive.

The same auld caper was going on in this leadership heave, basically vote buying by promising people who would back him, front bench positions, the whole thing stinks.

To be fair they might have taken control of eircom or renationalised it, and run it in a different way to FF, ie run it for the benefit of the country. In any case it could'nt have been any worse than eircom as it is.
Picking on Kenny's previous proposals, I assume you also agree he was wrong about benchmarking being a bad idea.
I notice people can be very selective about Kenny's previous proposals, always focusing on daft election promises that we all know are only a bit of fluff, but ignoring the commonsense ones in favour of berties twaddle.

jmayo

Hazlittle wrote: »

You have mistaken me for a communist. I am not a communist. I only desire to have no authority above me. I support the building revolution as it will lead to authority on me. Redistribution of wealth is not my concern.

We had enough f**king building, thank you very much.

MrDarcy wrote: »

I think a major major factor as to why people are not prepared to protest, is because of what we would be replacing the current government with if we protested for an election. The absolute spectacle of the FG attempt to finally rid the country of Enda Kenny as a self declared "Taoiseach in Waiting", the way this ultimately has panned out, with Enda Kenny still at the helm, speaking for myself anyway, there isn't a hope of me protesting for an election or a change in management of the country.

If you think we have problems now, you just wait until you wake up some morning and see Eamon Gilmore running the place, pandering to powerful public sector unions.

I'd be happy enough to leave Brian Lenihan where he is for the minute, he is a decent man doing a hard job. Michael Noonan in Finance, the man who cost the state millions in the Hep C scandal and told victims who were dying that he'd fight them every step of the way in court???

You know that posts reads like the usual "I am pretending to be objective about who is in power, but I am really ff" . :rolleyes:

If you were objective you would not think lenihan was decent or maybe you have no problem with high ranking minister, senior legal consel and former law lecturer condoning lying on sworn affadivits, by fellow legal professional and minister, to the second highest court in the land ?

And that is before you ever get me started on the fact he has signed away the futures of the taxpayers of this country on bailing out insolvent corruptly (morally ethically if not criminally) run banks. :mad:

BTW whilst I don't agree with the way Noonan handled the Hep C affair, I think the costs he has inflicted on the Irish taxpayer is miniscule in comparison to those inflicted by ff and their cronyism.

BTW your talking up of the usual media favourite Bruton (passion and spirit :rolleyes:) just goes to show how deluded you really are.
The guy did not have it and if he couldn't manage to get rid of the guy you label as a blubbering inept eejit, then how the f**k would he be able to lead the country ?

BTW on topic, as others have said a revolt will only occurr when the middle classes have had enough paying for everyone else.
Some will just quietly leave and decide to make a life elsewhere.
A lot who can't leave will have to suffer along, but make sure their kids get to f*** out of the banana republic to build better lives for themselves elsewhere.
I am probably in this group.
Some others will make sure they are in with the right party, usually ff, to ensure their kids get to suck at the teats of the public sector.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

pablo_escobar

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

while i do agree with this statement, since we're discussing ireland, what private sector are you referring to?

it's my understanding most of the multi-national companies operating in ireland and creating jobs are receiving huge subsidies, paid for by the irish tax payer..or atleast using borrowed money from the ECB with the guarantee irish people will pay it back.

more over, are the banks not currently supported by irish tax payers?
is the failure of banks the result of government interference or not enough?

MrDarcy

jmayo wrote: »

We had enough f**king building, thank you very much.



You know that posts reads like the usual "I am pretending to be objective about who is in power, but I am really ff" . :rolleyes:

If you were objective you would not think lenihan was decent or maybe you have no problem with high ranking minister, senior legal consel and former law lecturer condoning lying on sworn affadivits, by fellow legal professional and minister, to the second highest court in the land ?

And that is before you ever get me started on the fact he has signed away the futures of the taxpayers of this country on bailing out insolvent corruptly (morally ethically if not criminally) run banks. :mad:

BTW whilst I don't agree with the way Noonan handled the Hep C affair, I think the costs he has inflicted on the Irish taxpayer is miniscule in comparison to those inflicted by ff and their cronyism.

BTW your talking up of the usual media favourite Bruton (passion and spirit :rolleyes:) just goes to show how deluded you really are.
The guy did not have it and if he couldn't manage to get rid of the guy you label as a blubbering inept eejit, then how the f**k would he be able to lead the country ?

BTW on topic, as others have said a revolt will only occurr when the middle classes have had enough paying for everyone else.
Some will just quietly leave and decide to make a life elsewhere.
A lot who can't leave will have to suffer along, but make sure their kids get to f*** out of the banana republic to build better lives for themselves elsewhere.
I am probably in this group.
Some others will make sure they are in with the right party, usually ff, to ensure their kids get to suck at the teats of the public sector.

I can assure you that I'm no Fianna Fail man. On the next occasion, the first person from FF to come near my door is going to get handhandled off my property.

My issue is not so much with FF, it's the whole political spectrum that is polluted. At least Lenihan stood up to the public sector unions, for this reason and non other, I would tend to be supportive of him.

However wasn't it the same party that entered into stupid social partnership arrangements over the last 12 odd years that have brought us to where we are now, spendinging twice what we are taking in???

My point remains that I althought there would be no better buachal than myself for getting into a scrap with a government, there must be a purpose to it.

Fine Gael have failed this country by putting forth and maintaining an idiot leader that is unelectable to the highest office in the country, the hopes of a generation have been distroyed in this regard. This is a deadly serious business, we need vision, passion, energy, courage, and we need it yesterday... The needs of the country MUST be placed above the clearly flawed view of one man that he was born to be leader of this country. I'd argue that anyone coming out with that kind of rubbish should be immediately disqualified from running for the office. He is to politics what Ricky Gervais is to people management.

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

Fine Gael have failed this country by putting forth and maintaining an idiot leader that is unelectable to the highest office in the country, the hopes of a generation have been distroyed in this regard.

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

Manach

pablo_escobar wrote: »

while i do agree with this statement, since we're discussing ireland, what private sector are you referring to?

it's my understanding most of the multi-national companies operating in ireland and creating jobs are receiving huge subsidies, paid for by the irish tax payer..or atleast using borrowed money from the ECB with the guarantee irish people will pay it back.

more over, are the banks not currently supported by irish tax payers?
is the failure of banks the result of government interference or not enough?

Off topic: That would be, from my experience, the IT Sector which are amongst the more productive (and unsupported by government) part of the private sector.

On topic: speaking as a historian, it is easy enough to start a revolt, getting it to end that is the interesting part.

Sleepy

We'll have no change or revolt because the vast majority of this country are too stupid to see the national picture instead of the local, too selfish to give up what they've been let believe they're entitled to, are utter imbeciles when it comes to economics and / or are too broke and stressed to do anything but struggle to keep their head above water.

The only means I can see of changing things is routine assassination of the Callellys, Aherns and anyone else found with their hands in the till / opposing proper electoral reform etc. Make them too scared to be corrupt. I'm no sharpshooter and to be honest, I'm not prepared to martyr myself for the idiots I described in my first paragraph but it's the only way I can see for the minority of Irish citizens who know better (as arrogant as that sounds) to fix the place. I'm not advocating it by the way. I just can't see a legal / political means of getting the job done.

pablo_escobar

Manach wrote:

Off topic: That would be, from my experience, the IT Sector which are amongst the more productive (and unsupported by government) part of the private sector.

I won't speculate on where you work but i'd dispute tax payer NOT funding the IT sector in Ireland atleast 90%

Let's take Government departments in general as example.

Anyone who's worked inside a large institution will be aware of hardware, software maintenance and technical support costs.

The naive approach is to argue "look at how much it costs the public sector, private sector would do it more efficiently"

*sigh* There's an awful amount of ignorance here when people argue this because it's private companies who provide the software maintenance, hardware and technical support.

The employees in the government are not skilled or experienced to deal with software, hardware or technical faults in a system.

On topic: speaking as a historian, it is easy enough to start a revolt, getting it to end that is the interesting part.

It's safe to presume the Gardai wouldn't be around to protect people.

Sleepy

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The naive approach is to argue "look at how much it costs the public sector, private sector would do it more efficiently"

Why is that naieve? It's fact. Private companies demand more from their suppliers, leverage any opportunities to bulk buy they can, look for the most affordable option etc. etc. etc.

For the most part, the Public Sector fails to do this.

*sigh* There's an awful amount of ignorance here when people argue this because it's private companies who provide the software maintenance, hardware and technical support.

The employees in the government are not skilled or experienced to deal with software, hardware or technical faults in a system.

Why aren't they? The level of certification in the Public Sector is very high, the training supports vastly superior to those in most of the private Sector.

You underestimate Public Sector IT departments by the way. Many do maintain their own networks, servers and systems. Some of them do it incredibly well (from personal experience the NTMA IT staff are among the best I've worked with), others squander money left right and centre over-speccing hardware in order to have a play with the latest technologies, replacing perfectly functional PC's / Laptops because Bill in Finance likes shiny new things, acquiring site licenses for software packages rather than going to the hassle of auditing actual requirements etc.

The reason the waste is there is because it's tolerated. No one at the top is hit in the back pocket if money is wasted. In a private company, if I acquire an extra license we don't need that hurts profits and when that's followed down the line, it'll hurt my chances at a raise / of keeping my job. That motivator is missing in the Public Sector.

MrDarcy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

This is where we just disagree... I think we need to start coming to a place in our heads in this country where we are not going to be content with something that is just a little bit less useful than those that are currently running the country.

We need to start talking a different language in this country I think, we need to start having enormously different positions on what our actual expectations are to be.

I, speaking for myself, see now reason WHATSOEVER, why we can not set out a new social model that everyone in the country can subscribe to, where we start looking at things like this:

We DEMAND that our public services AT ALL TIMES are run and administered in a manner that makes Ryanair efficiencies look like a Fianna Fail tent banquet in Ballybrit. We adopt a model where we embrace transparency in relation to our costs, operations and delivery of all public services and we accept nothing less than every single year, to have delivered to us, a VERIFIABLE increase in productivity and a reduction in costs, regardless of whether the state is in a recession or a period of growth.

We stop rewarding failures. If you are running a semi-state such as FAS, or you are a public representative, then you can be charged for an offence along the lines of "gross incompetence causing national financial loss over a certain amount", and you are SACKED when you are found guilty. No pension top up's, so fannying around with 20 day suspensions, no "ah sure I'll hang around 'til 2011 sure haven't I got my Seanad seat", you are GONE. AND you'll have to repay the amount that was lost in the case of misappropriation as is the case with Callely.

We need to up the bar in this country BIG TIME I think folks, or we literally are finished.

We also need to sort out our much covetted constitution to mandate for by-elections to be held within 90 days of a Dail seat becoming vacant and also to mandate for the removal of TD's and Senator's who have discraced their own office.

There is nothing whatsoever inherently unconstitutional about firing someone who is corrupt and putting it back to their constituency to elect a new TD amongst themselves within 90 days because the last one they sent up had to be gated because he/she was found guilty of being on the take and thereby robbing their constituents of their own money. That to me is just common sense and good practice.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And meanwhile FF put forth and maintain a leader who led this country to financial destruction, and who was never elected as leader of this country in the first place.

I do hear what you are saying, and we do need and deserve better.

But until that arises, we have to vote for the best of a bad lot.

If an independent comes canvassing and they sign a letter that I'm going to print out that they will not contemplate propping up FF, then they could well get my #1 vote.

Never elected as leader?

dan_d

An article from today's Indo, which sums up the whole situation (and my thoughts on Irish politics) very, very well.

I should point out that I am not a fan of the Indo at all, however this article hits the nail on the head.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/martina-devlin/martina-devlin-wake-up-and-save-this-rotting-republic-of-greed-2284658.html

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Never elected as leader?

If you're going to try to misrepresent, please don't do so so ridiculously blatantly. :rolleyes:

never elected as leader of this country

Wide Road

Ok Liam, "never elected leader of this country". What's your point?

Wide Road

Well Liam. What is your point?

Rabble Rabble

The OP's points have not been bettered. No revolt because:

1) the social welfare classes have little to worry about.
2) the broad working classes ( the private sector PAYE sector) are too busy getting on with their lives.
3) The old age pensioners have time but are not going to really lead a "revolution". In any case that particular generation is sitting pretty compared to the rest of us.
4) Public servants have pretty much swallowed the pain - to their credit.

And Ireland does not have a history of revolt outside of nationalistic revolts. Greece still has some romantic anarchists hanging about, rather strangely they are appalled by the recent reduction in the size of the greek State.

Statist Marxism appears to be dead.

Hard to see a revolution. I suppose the real question is why no revolt through the democratic process, why no new party committed to bringing people to justice? To selling off the banks. To renegotiating NAMA?

On that question, I have no idea beyond my list. Maybe we are too much diffuse and unsociable these days, the idea of setting up a new party doesnt work in the modern age, the internet keeps us at home.

Rabble Rabble

Wide Road wrote: »

Well Liam. What is your point?

He apparently doesnt understand the parliamentary system. People said the same about Gordon Brown. In all cases, parliament elects the Prime Minister or Taoiseach. In some cases we elect the parliament just before they do that, in some cases we dont.

This is a bit off-topic though.

Wide Road

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

He apparently doesnt understand the parliamentary system. People said the same about Gordon Brown. In all cases, parliament elects the Prime Minister or Taoiseach. In some cases we elect the parliament just before they do that, in some cases we dont.

This is a bit off-topic though.

I totally agree that it's off-topic but it was another poster that brought it up. In fairness, there must be a reason for doing so but has failed to explain the reasons for bringing it up.

Wide Road

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

He apparently doesnt understand the parliamentary system. People said the same about Gordon Brown. In all cases, parliament elects the Prime Minister or Taoiseach. In some cases we elect the parliament just before they do that, in some cases we dont.

This is a bit off-topic though.

I totally agree that it's off-topic but it was another poster that brought it up. In fairness, there must be a reason for doing so but has failed to explain the reasons for bringing it up.

Laminations

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The OP's points have not been bettered. No revolt because:

1) the social welfare classes have little to worry about.

Could you explain to me what the social welfare class is? Is this long term dolers of which numbers are <4% or are you insulting all 450 odd thousand unemployed? I'm sure those who have recently lost their jobs aren't exactly happy with their pay reduction to 200 quid a week.

The reason we don't revolt is down to psychology. We are conformists. We scoff at radicals and anyone who generally tries to make a stand looks like a mentalist, to me anyway. People see revolt as both futile and damaging, we are a passive nation with low expectations because that's what we've come to expect from the constant drip feed of bad news and scandal. We have habituated to this pathetic standard of governance and if anyone stands up and demands better we see them as a surrealist, scoffing 'this is gombeen Ireland, what do you expect'.

MrDarcy

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The OP's points have not been bettered. No revolt because:

1) the social welfare classes have little to worry about.
2) the broad working classes ( the private sector PAYE sector) are too busy getting on with their lives.
3) The old age pensioners have time but are not going to really lead a "revolution". In any case that particular generation is sitting pretty compared to the rest of us.
4) Public servants have pretty much swallowed the pain - to their credit.

And Ireland does not have a history of revolt outside of nationalistic revolts. Greece still has some romantic anarchists hanging about, rather strangely they are appalled by the recent reduction in the size of the greek State.

Statist Marxism appears to be dead.

Hard to see a revolution. I suppose the real question is why no revolt through the democratic process, why no new party committed to bringing people to justice? To selling off the banks. To renegotiating NAMA?

On that question, I have no idea beyond my list. Maybe we are too much diffuse and unsociable these days, the idea of setting up a new party doesnt work in the modern age, the internet keeps us at home.

The only issue I can see now in relation to NAMA, the banks, developers, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, is that we need a flavour of leadership that makes sure that these kind of recovery vehicles will never ever become necessary again. Now how the likes of Ivor Callely, with 8 residential investment properties, all REMORTGAGED to the hilt on the same f*cking day if you don't mind, to give him equity access to get into an even bigger property snort up, can be considered to be any part of the solution here, is completely and utterly beyond me.

The people who brought us to this particular place with their greed and property snorting, need to be replaced in terms of the leadership of this country.

If a new political party were to surface, I'd be less interested in their views on NAMA and property developers, and fat cats and ar*eholes, and much more interested in their views on how we are going to get people to be positive enough to start creating small businesses.

Last year we imprisoned thousands of people who defaulted on their debts and for whatever reason, were not in a position to obey a court order with regard to the payment of a debt. What kind of f*cked up message is that to send to a nation of people, a lot of whom we will need to take some risk and start up a business??? I heard of a case recently where a person I know of, couldn't pay a mobile phone bill that was in his name but was used for his employer. His employer went bust but the employee had a phone bill of almost a grand but couldn't pay it because he had lost his job.

This guy wanted to go out on his own but no bank would lend to him, then he finds himself up in court defending himself against an attempt to get a commital order attached to him for non payment of a debt! He can't believe that he hasn't committed any crime to his mind, he worked for no wages, tried to keep things airbourne for his employer and himself, then a year later the state is minded to put him into Cloverhill because he can't pay a debt.

We have an awful lot of soul searching to do in this country, I'd welcome a new political party, I'd nearly start up my own one at this stage I'm that frustrated at the state of the country and the way we seem to be either exporting or locking up our most ambitious citizens, while driving around with pallets of cash to bail out those that have caused this mess.

As for Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, and all the rest of it, FORGET ABOUT IT!

Deep Easterly

Wino82 wrote: »

of course there won't be a revolt, most irish people are greedy

They are also ridiculed by mainstream media when they do make paltry attempts at protest. I can't recall correctly, but I think it was the Anglo-Irish bank protest recently that had social commentators becrying to a weary and worn down nation that Sinn Fein was behind the whole thing. Same in Rossport. We are brainwashed into thinking that whatever cause Sinn Fein are a part of (whether in truth or in fiction) then it is automatically to be dismissed.

skregs

Re-elect Ahern

Liam Byrne

MrDarcy wrote: »

This is where we just disagree... I think we need to start coming to a place in our heads in this country where we are not going to be content with something that is just a little bit less useful than those that are currently running the country.

I presume you meant "a little bit less useless" ?

If so, we don't disagree at all. Just add "a lot less corrupt".

I've already said that if someone like Shane Ross and similar-minded people launched a new, 100% ethical party, I'd be behind them like a shot.

FG are poor, as proven by the fact that they couldn't win the last election despite the FF fiascos, and in losing that they contributed to the ruin of the country, since FF were in power to bail out Anglo and implement NAMA.

Believe me, if there were a 100% ethical and accountable party that would implement half of what you suggested, I'd nearly join it myself!

blackiebest

The revolt will start mid to late Oct, When you see the same, full page, photo on the cover of every daily newspaper then that will be the begining.

It is currently under planning, totally peaceful, totally legal, hilarious and effective. The plan when executed, will warm the heart of every disgruntled person in the country and will embarass the Government no end. This will be the start.

I will need some help closer to the date so pm me if you are responsible, trustworthy, male, over 30. Do not include your name in any PM, only username. The photo on the front page of every paper and indeed international press will not identify anyone unless, like me, you wish to be identified.

I will reply to any PM's deemed eligable during the first week in Oct.

Ladies, I wish men only get in contact only as part of the plan. For stage two I will require females. Stage two will be in December.

Blackie.