Round 12: Hungarian Grand Prix

amacachi · 01-08-2010 1:40pm

Just a little bit much from Schumacher there.

Though actually Brundle talking rubbish now, saying that Schumacher could've lost the do-anything tag with his comeback, while they've been commenting that he seems to have lost "the edge", not sure which they want.

But that was a bit much. :pac:

amacachi · 01-08-2010 1:42pm

Heh, good ol' Alonso, looks like he's broken Vettel.

IM0 · 01-08-2010 1:43pm

there is racing and theres life, schumacher seems to concentrate too much on the racing part, he's a headcase, literally.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 1:45pm

me@ucd wrote: »

there is racing and theres life, schumacher seems to concentrate too much on the racing part, he's a headcase, literally.

Yeah I can't imagine the family being too thrilled with that move.

FrostyJack · 01-08-2010 1:50pm

Yeah I can't imagine the family being too thrilled with that move.

Missed that too, stupid internet!!! :mad:

amacachi · 01-08-2010 1:51pm

Webber at the camera just summed Vettel up beautifully there for me. :pac:

robinph · 01-08-2010 1:53pm

If he'd done that earlier in the race I'd not have been surprised to see him get the black flag as Barichello said. Totally stupid move, and I was starting to actually not dislike Schumacher recently.

Vettel is not a happy bunny.

IM0 · 01-08-2010 2:02pm

should have been black flagged whether or not he's done 10 laps or 50, a reckless driver is a reckless driver

robinph · 01-08-2010 2:04pm

me@ucd wrote: »

should have been black flagged whether or not he's done 10 laps or 50, a reckless driver is a reckless driver

Just that incidents towards the end of the race don't get dealt with during it, they wait until afterwards as there isn't time.

Seb looks like he might cry in the press conference.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 2:10pm

On the rear-facing camera replay there what Schumacher did doesn't look anywhere near as bad tbh, looked like Rubens had more speed than expected.

losthorizon · 01-08-2010 2:29pm

That Barichello incident was a disgrace. Ive been backing Schumis return to f1 but that block was totally out of order.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 2:39pm

What was the safety car actually for? I only switched on a lap or so before the SC came in so I assumed it was down to the crash in the pitlane. Also, were people pitting even before the SC came out?

robinph · 01-08-2010 2:43pm

Someones wing dropped on the track, too much then happened during the safety car being out for them to bother going through showing the clean up.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 2:45pm

Good news for Webber is he'll always have NASCAR if F1 doesn't work out, seems like he's good at handling cautions for debris on the racetrack. :pac:

losthorizon · 01-08-2010 2:47pm

amacachi wrote: »

What was the safety car actually for? I only switched on a lap or so before the SC came in so I assumed it was down to the crash in the pitlane. Also, were people pitting even before the SC came out?

Liuzzi had lost some of his front wing on the main straight. The accident in the pitlane only occurred during the safety car deployment. A few stragglers had pitted early on.

losthorizon · 01-08-2010 3:01pm

This is how close it was

amacachi · 01-08-2010 3:03pm

BBC getting in an awful tizz about Hulkenberg there, nowhere near as good as when Raikkonen did it on ITV though. :pac:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6431766470249091563#

robinph · 01-08-2010 3:06pm

losthorizon wrote: »

This is how close it was

The white line being the edge of the track, and Schumacher just being lucky that there happened to be a car widths worth of not track before the wall. If someone was coming out of the pits at that point it would have been even more messy.

christophicus · 01-08-2010 3:28pm

What Schumacher did was just wrong. I really can't wait until someone does something similar to him and he eats concrete. Maybe it'll be the one good thing to come out of his return.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 3:30pm

christophicus wrote: »

What Schumacher did was just wrong. I really can't wait until someone does something similar to him and he eats concrete. Maybe it'll be the one good thing to come out of his return.

:rolleyes:

robinph · 01-08-2010 3:35pm

10 place grid penalty in the next race has been given.

Definitely right that he's penalised, but think I'd have liked to see something more than just the grid drop as that makes it the same as changing the engine which is hardly in the same category of misdemeanour's. A one race ban would have been equivalent to getting the black flag during the race.

Voodu Child · 01-08-2010 3:42pm

I thought Schumachers' move was harsh but fair. I don't think it was excessively dangerous either, they didn't touch wheels once, which is more than can be said for most of the ham-fisted current generation of drivers. How many times have we seen drivers (even teamates!) crash or lose wings when there is miles of space either side of them?

It's a shame that he was been given a 10-place grid penalty. Its basically sending a message to drivers that if a chasing driver stuffs it up the inside, you have to jump out of the way and leave them enough room to drive a truck through.

christophicus · 01-08-2010 3:44pm

Yeah it would have been nice to see him get a ban, but I'm sure they would have considered that far too strict going off of past rulings.

Looking back on it, I'm somewhat glad he wasn't black flagged during this race. He didn't score any points anyway, and now it doesn't look like he will in the next race either.

losthorizon · 01-08-2010 4:15pm

robinph wrote: »

10 place grid penalty in the next race has been given.

Definitely right that he's penalised, but think I'd have liked to see something more than just the grid drop as that makes it the same as changing the engine which is hardly in the same category of misdemeanour's. A one race ban would have been equivalent to getting the black flag during the race.

I agree. Im going to Spa and would like to see Schmi driving again in the flesh but what he did today was outrageous. I think we forget that because we havent seen a death in F1 for a long time that it wont happen again. But it will -its inevitable, its part of racing. Scumacher himself knows this. He really should be ashamed of himself.

Ghost Train · 01-08-2010 4:19pm

A race ban would have been ok, but I think 10 place drop is fair enough. If something similar were to happen again he'd probably get a more serious punishment

bad mistake from Vettel, good race from Webber with the strategy he had.

IM0 · 01-08-2010 4:34pm

did you see his reaction to how he saw it?
the guy always was a headcase...who won world championships, he's got issues MAJOR ones, he realised that he NEEDS f1 and racing so he came back, the champions of sport polarise opinion because to be champ takes a different mentality of life, the 'what Im doing is the be all and end all of life' kind of person.

Schumacher is one of these, he's not well, he needs a kicking out, not for HIS sake but for someone ELSES sake who values their life more than car racing...like oh Barrichello :pac:

amacca · 01-08-2010 4:46pm

Delighted for Webber, he doesn't seem to be as much of a spoiled child as Alonso, Vettel or even whiney Hamilton.

Did f1 drivers always take bad luck or not finishing first in every race, as badly as some of the current crop do?

Thought Massa came out of last weekend well in this regard but find it hard at times to believe the body language of some of the other drivers going up to the podium after races or listen to their radio comments. They just dont seem to be able to roll with the punches with any dignity...in fairness they do stand up and keep battling but some of them remind me of badly behaved children at times.

Still having returned to watching f1 after a couple of years of disinterest I'm really enjoying this season and how intrusive the coverage BBC coverage can be at times and the utterly childish antics of some of the drivers (sulky facial expressions, envy, rage, hatred...its all there) are definitely more entertaining than mainly dull monotonous after race stuff I got used to in the past.

FrostyJack · 01-08-2010 5:08pm

Delighted for Webber, he doesn't seem to be as much of a spoiled child as Alonso, Vettel or even whiney Hamilton.

When he's not moaning about being number 2 you mean? There is a whole thread dedicated to why some people don't like him.

Did f1 drivers always take bad luck or not finishing first in every race, as badly as some of the current crop do?

Yeah back in the day everyone used to love being 1st loser, Senna actually prefere to finish 2nd or 3rd, little known fact

Thought Massa came out of last weekend well in this regard

By sitting there hanging the team out to dry and possible be expelled from championship? class act.

Schumacher is one of these, he's not well, he needs a kicking out, not for HIS sake but for someone ELSES sake who values their life more than car racing...like oh Barrichello

I saw nothing horrible in the incident, it happens at the start of nearly every race. Schumacher went right and so did Rubens, the speed differential as Rubens started the move meant it was always going to be tight, the reason it looked so bad is Michael keeped on moving. When Rubens cut back onto the track he basically did the same thing only there was no wall the other side of Schumacher. It was hyper aggressive yes but the "most dangerous thing ever", I think not. Had they of touched wheels or the wall it would have been highly unlikely that any one would be injured bar a freak accident. A slap on the wrist might have been a more appropriate penalty.

amacachi · 01-08-2010 5:29pm

FrostyJack wrote: »

I saw nothing horrible in the incident, it happens at the start of nearly every race. Schumacher went right and so did Rubens, the speed differential as Rubens started the move meant it was always going to be tight, the reason it looked so bad is Michael keeped on moving. When Rubens cut back onto the track he basically did the same thing only there was no wall the other side of Schumacher. It was hyper aggressive yes but the "most dangerous thing ever", I think not. Had they of touched wheels or the wall it would have been highly unlikely that any one would be injured bar a freak accident. A slap on the wrist might have been a more appropriate penalty.

Aye, at the time it looked worse, but I think Schumi was caught out by the speed differential as much as anything else. The photo posted a couple of hours ago looks bad, but it's taken from a bad angle, had it been taken a couple of tenths later it would look like the Williams was in the middle of the wall. :pac:

amacca · 01-08-2010 5:38pm

FrostyJack wrote: »

When he's not moaning about being number 2 you mean? There is a whole thread dedicated to why some people don't like him.

I don't find that hard to believe, you compete in f1 or any sport you have you're supporters and you're detractors...you would find similar threads on nearly all of the current drivers. I thought he handled himself fairly well during the race that incident happened and one pointed remark directed at the team wasn't over the top...it seemed more like proving a point than whining....he had just channeled whatever frustrations etc he had into the race and proved himself there where it matters most.

FrostyJack wrote: »

Yeah back in the day everyone used to love being 1st loser, Senna actually prefere to finish 2nd or 3rd, little known fact

You race to win....simples, I'm hardly denying that. I just think (and perhaps I'm wrong) drivers had more dignity and handled misfortune etc in a much less childish fashion than now while still being very talented (and as a consequence probably highly strung) and more than likely getting paid less....I think some of them are behaving less like men and more like boys....but don't get me wrong it makes for much better entertainment.

FrostyJack wrote: »

By sitting there hanging the team out to dry and possible be expelled from championship? class act.

what would you have had him say?...until the exact details of his contract are known (and they probably never will be im assuming) how do you know he didn't behave very honorably? I thought he said very little in the press conference and backed up Ferraris with what he said at least. (even if it was perfectly obvious he didnt feel that way) I thought all he was really guilty of was looking glum and downbeat...which imo is understandable after receiving the "order" to move aside and let alonso through when he could have secured a victory himself he was basically told to give up his chance at a world title (no matter how slim they were)

FrostyJack wrote: »

I saw nothing horrible in the incident, it happens at the start of nearly every race. Schumacher went right and so did Rubens, the speed differential as Rubens started the move meant it was always going to be tight, the reason it looked so bad is Michael keeped on moving. When Rubens cut back onto the track he basically did the same thing only there was no wall the other side of Schumacher. It was hyper aggressive yes but the "most dangerous thing ever", I think not. Had they of touched wheels or the wall it would have been highly unlikely that any one would be injured bar a freak accident. A slap on the wrist might have been a more appropriate penalty.

sort of agree with you....but was Michael 100% sure another car wasn't coming out of the pits when he made this move, it was towards the end of the race yes but to squeeze someone right over beside the pit lane exit when you cant be sure another car is coming out (for whatever reason) could lead to quite an accident. Also hes a multiple world champion who has had barrichello in his shadow while he was at Ferrari, was there any reason to be so "hyper aggressive" as you put it. ...... let him through and have his one world championship point....come back next season with a better car more suited to your style and prove you can still do it, I would have thought that would have been a better decision on Schumachers part given his age, experience and accomplishments.

but racing is racing and I definitely think the whole bbc he should never have come back, he had a chance to lose some of his reputation if he didnt do this to barrichello is a load of typical hysterical media blarney....which btw I also find entertaining.

mickdw · 01-08-2010 6:18pm

amacca wrote: »

sort of agree with you....but was Michael 100% sure another car wasn't coming out of the pits when he made this move, it was towards the end of the race yes but to squeeze someone right over beside the pit lane exit when you cant be sure another car is coming out (for whatever reason) could lead to quite an accident.

I dont believe its schumachers problem to be sure whether there is another car coming out of the pits. Rubens knows schumacher, he was never going to give him anymore than the minimum space needed to go by. Ruben therefore should have known he was going to be running pretty near the pit wall if he went down that side. TBH, it shows as much lunacy in Rubens as it does in Schumacher as I believe the most danger would have come from running into another car leaving the pits & really rubens made the decision to place his car there.
Also schumacher kept his car nicely on track & I would be pretty sure that schumacher is quite aware that there is a cars width outside the white line at that location having raced there for many years & so could quickly close rubens off to the maximum while giving him the bare minimum car width.

T-Maxx · 01-08-2010 7:43pm

I too think that Schumi was harshly done in. He had a right to defend his position. If Rubens crashed, he would only had himself to blame for taking a gap which was rightly closed off.

IM0 · 01-08-2010 7:48pm

the gap was closed off AFTER Rubens was in it, otherwise how else could he have fit there, mmmk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIJLRbU-lDI

robinph · 01-08-2010 7:51pm

You can defend you line, but I'm pretty sure that keeping on moving to either side such that if someone else is there they would be totally off the track isn't allowed. If it had been along another part of the track then he would have only pushed Rubens half onto the grass and would then have stopped. He pushed him totally off the track though which is what he got done for I expect, the fact it was along the side of the pit wall doesn't help MSC's case though.

amacca · 01-08-2010 8:15pm

mickdw wrote: »

I dont believe its schumachers problem to be sure whether there is another car coming out of the pits.

I personally think it is or should be something he should consider if he is squeezing a car into their exit from the pits....thought there was regulations regarding forcing people of the track...one move to defend and after that you stick to your line?

in other words I don't think it was like barrichello was driving into a wedge...I thought he was practically alongside when schumacher squeezed him off track

mickdw wrote: »

Rubens knows schumacher, he was never going to give him anymore than the minimum space needed to go by. Ruben therefore should have known he was going to be running pretty near the pit wall if he went down that side. TBH, it shows as much lunacy in Rubens as it does in Schumacher as I believe the most danger would have come from running into another car leaving the pits & really rubens made the decision to place his car there.

true, true but if I knew someone was a bully and their tactic was to try put you in a position where you can either a) crash and take them with you or b) pull back and let them win I'd have to show them I was willing to take that risk so they wouldn't have the psychological advantage in subsequent races....i'd want them to be unsure and under pressure when im behind them rather than full of confidence...it would make it easier for me to get by. At least I believe that would be my feeling/tactic if it was early in a career....its interesting that barrichello and schumacher are among the oldest on the grid...looks like old grudges die hard!

mickdw wrote: »

Also schumacher kept his car nicely on track & I would be pretty sure that schumacher is quite aware that there is a cars width outside the white line at that location having raced there for many years & so could quickly close rubens off to the maximum while giving him the bare minimum car width.

Im no expert by any means but are you saying that the move was justified because schumacher kept his car on the track while forcing barrichello wide?...bad connection here at the moment so waiting for video to download is a pain but from memory (which in my case can be flawed) I thought when barrichello initially pulled up alongside schumacher he was on track and schumacher forced him off circuit?

donspeekinglesh · 01-08-2010 9:17pm

amacca wrote: »

I thought when barrichello initially pulled up alongside schumacher he was on track and schumacher forced him off circuit?

That's right.

I think this video, from around the same time Schumacher was pushing Barrichello off the track, shows why that sort of behaviour cannot ever be tolerated (although in this case it wasn't deliberate):

Youtube link
This was in the Superleague race at Brands. van der Drift has a broken ankle, injured shoulder and damaged hand.

amacca · 01-08-2010 10:07pm

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

That's right.

I think this video, from around the same time Schumacher was pushing Barrichello off the track, shows why that sort of behaviour cannot ever be tolerated (although in this case it wasn't deliberate):

Youtube link
This was in the Superleague race at Brands. van der Drift has a broken ankle, injured shoulder and damaged hand.

well, finally downloaded that...fairly horrific looking crash.........but I dont think this incident bears much relation to schumacher barrichello incident

as you pointed out for one driver in front didn't deliberately force driver off track

secondly driver (olympiacos) wasn't alongside leading driver (as monaco)....he effectively ran into the back of as monaco

If I seen this on an f1 circuit Id blame the driver that had the crash....he wasnt forced off the circuit, he ran into the back of the car in front...........the only way he comes out with less blame is if he was told in advance the driver ahead was going to let him pass on the right (was that the miscommunication?)

the only way I see that specifically making any case for punishing schumacher is that it shows you that horrific accidents can happen in motor racing but we already knew that

if the two were f1 racing drivers and driver initially ahead was competitive (ie: not a backmarker deliberately causing an obstruction/blocking) I'd say he would be entitled to move over and defend like that ...even though he wasnt and was actually trying to get out of the way of driver behind him...if you get me

I think a driver a video of a driver forcing someone off who pulls up alongside because he left a car size gap there might be more convincing to those that think schumacher was 100% justified

also they have racing teams named after football teams, whats the deal with that...do the football teams sponsor the motor racing or is it just a coincidence

amacca · 01-08-2010 10:23pm

I see AC Milan top the table and Liverpool a lowly 11th place wtf?

sorry to drag off topic for a moment but I like soccer but I dont think calling a racing team after a football team would encourage me to watch the races.....id prefer to watch good racing

do these sort of gimmicks work?

IM0 · 02-08-2010 12:44am

RE the last bunch of posts and the back and forth:

Probably trolling, but in both incidents the car in front cuts off the one behind, for the life of me I find it hard to take you seriously, or its that you're trolling, carry on so :pac:

amacachi · 02-08-2010 12:50am

me@ucd wrote: »

RE the last bunch of posts and the back and forth:

Probably trolling, but in both incidents the car in front cuts off the one behind, for the life of me I find it hard to take you seriously, or its that you're trolling, carry on so :pac:

In fairness the one you posted is more like Webber's crash in Valencia.

amacca · 02-08-2010 3:01am

me@ucd wrote: »

RE the last bunch of posts and the back and forth:

Probably trolling, but in both incidents the car in front cuts off the one behind, for the life of me I find it hard to take you seriously, or its that you're trolling, carry on so :pac:

I suppose in fairness the post about the football/racing teams was a bit trolly...off topic, but was curious..wonder if someone setting up a series thought it would be a good way to finance and gain audience/marketshare....must have been a hell of a pitch to convince the boards of directors/chairmen of the football clubs to part with the money - cant see how it benefits them or cant understand how racing teams would pay to use football clubs names--but obviously it must work or it wouldnt be happening, thought someone would quickly help dispel my ignorance.

back on topic though and I was being serious and not attempting any sort of trolling with that post... I think the two incidents are different. in the accident video from brands hatch the car in front cuts the one behind off.....in the f1 video, it happens in a split second but it still looks to me as if schumacher leaves a car sized gap on his right side and rubens gets in there before schumacher squeezes him of track...that makes it more a dangerous mistake from schumacher than a wild lunge from barrichello in my book.

basically I think scumacher is doing way more than making one move to defend and it was even more dangerous given where they were on track....

keithoh · 02-08-2010 7:20am

robinph wrote: »

You can defend you line, but I'm pretty sure that keeping on moving to either side such that if someone else is there they would be totally off the track isn't allowed. If it had been along another part of the track then he would have only pushed Rubens half onto the grass and would then have stopped. He pushed him totally off the track though which is what he got done for I expect, the fact it was along the side of the pit wall doesn't help MSC's case though.

I think that Kubica did the same to Alonso at Silverstone, Alonso got the drive through for passing while cutting the corner, (personally I think he should have given the position back), so maybe Kubica should have gotten a 10 place grid penalty for pushing Alonso off the track. I don't see where MSC pushed Barichello off the track, inside the whilte line of the pit lane is still the track

At the start of all the races, drivers squeeze other drivers to the pit wall, in fairness they're not doing the same speed as the MSC & Barichello incident.

I do think that what MSC did was a bit naughty, but this season there has been so much bashing of Schumacher in the press, it's like listening to a broken record.

vectra · 02-08-2010 10:19am

At the end of the day and with Schumacher's expert driving skills he knew he left "just" enough room for Rubens so no harm done.. He got through after all did he not??

How many near accidents happen on our roads every day..
"Nearly never boiled the kettle" so to speak :pac:

Corben Dallas · 02-08-2010 12:05pm

the "most dangerous thing ever", I think not. Had they of touched wheels or the wall it would have been highly unlikely that any one would be injured bar a freak accident. A slap on the wrist might have been a more appropriate penalty.

Just think if anyone was exiting the pits when Schu was trying to nail Rubens to the pit wall, there would have been a serious major accident.

Also If they touched wheels somebody(Probably both drivers) would have been badly injured.(Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool)

Even with Safety systems on the cars now, if open wheel cars touch/interlock wheels both cars would have had a major accident.

Someone needs to put manners on Schumacher, at least they gave him a penalty for the next race, he should have got a warning+ suspended sentence that if he does anything like this again this season he gets banned.

Well done Rubens, ballsy move.

robinph · 02-08-2010 1:01pm

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Someone needs to put manners on Schumacher, at least they gave him a penalty for the next race, he should have got a warning+ suspended sentence that if he does anything like this again this season he gets banned.

Well done Rubens, ballsy move.

As they mentioned in the red button stuff after the race, the only driver to have ever got banned from a season is Schumacher. He didn't learn any manner then.

Ghost Train · 02-08-2010 1:21pm

I think this incident is a bit like webber and vettel in turkey in that it was on a straight. Once vettel was along side, webber held his line he didnt push vettel off the track like schumachdr did to rubens.
I thought wurz was very clear about it when interviewed after the race

amacca · 02-08-2010 1:23pm

keithoh wrote: »

this season there has been so much bashing of Schumacher in the press, it's like listening to a broken record.

agreed, car doesn't seem that great and doesn't suit his driving style, thats at least partially the reason for underperformance and dissapointment ----commentators taking it way to far.

If he sticks with it (and I hope he does) and they design the car around him he could be much more competitive next season. Would feel for Rosberg though as I thought hes done well this season and outperformed herr schumacher.

wonder how much mercedes want schumacher to be the main man and how much resources they are willing to put into him before they concentrate on other drivers/rosberg.

recyclebin · 02-08-2010 1:47pm

I can't see them Mercedes designing their car around Schumacher next year. If they did then it would be a huge mistake. Rosberg is a decent driver and and will be in formula 1 for a lot longer than the two years max that Scumacher has left in the sport.

In other news it looks like more stringent tests will be carried out on the front wings for the next grand prix. It's about time too. Formula one is becoming a bit like drug cheats in athletics/cycling. The tests can never keep up with those breaking the rules as the designers are always one step ahead of the tests.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48997

vectra · 02-08-2010 3:46pm

recyclebin wrote: »

I can't see them Mercedes designing their car around Schumacher next year. If they did then it would be a huge mistake. Rosberg is a decent driver and and will be in formula 1 for a lot longer than the two years max that Scumacher has left in the sport.

If they design the car around

A) Rosberg

Schumacher

Who would you think would be the most likely driver to lift the crown for them??
which driver would give them the most useful feedback??

recyclebin wrote: »

In other news it looks like more stringent tests will be carried out on the front wings for the next grand prix. It's about time too. Formula one is becoming a bit like drug cheats in athletics/cycling. The tests can never keep up with those breaking the rules as the designers are always one step ahead of the tests.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48997

Way overdue

I think there should be one chassis manufacturer and the Teams put their own Running gear on them

All chassis/Wings being equal equipment would make it more interesting.

frostie500 · 02-08-2010 3:53pm

recyclebin wrote: »

In other news it looks like more stringent tests will be carried out on the front wings for the next grand prix. It's about time too. Formula one is becoming a bit like drug cheats in athletics/cycling. The tests can never keep up with those breaking the rules as the designers are always one step ahead of the tests

I was actually writing about this earlier for my blog but there's quite a difference from doping and the flexible wings/double deck diffusers/F-Duct/any other tech development. As things stand Red Bull and Ferrari found a way to ensure that their wing doesnt flex when a certain force is exerted on it but does at a greater force. It may be against the 'spirit' of the regs but its not against the wording of the regs.

Round 12: Hungarian Grand Prix

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