the Cork teen tragedy

Catari Jaguar · 25-07-2010 06:44PM

In my line of work I see so many children that I just KNOW will end up like this teen. From birth you just know the poor child will never have a chance at life because they will be neglected, abused and ill reared. Without getting personal, I have many shocking and heartbreaking stories about inner city kids that have been through more hardship than some posters will face in a lifetime.

Although calling social welfare isn't my ideal choice (having come within a hair's breadth of going into care as a child myself) we have to get them involved sometimes (at times they do nothing!) and hope it was the right thing to do. But if a child goes to a foster home or (as is the norm) placed with the closest family member and god forbid they are abused or uncared for there, who will they turn to? Who will they trust? What can they do? If all they know is crime & drugs and aggression what will they grow up into?

Talking about how he or you shoulda/coulda/woulda done this that or the other in that situation is pointless. It's a different world. You'll never understand it unless you are in it. So keep your closed minded, ill informed judgemental comments to yourselves. They're not constructive at all..

aDeener · 26-07-2010 01:56PM

K-9 wrote: »

Enough of the considered, thought out responses Stovelid.

We do moral unthinking outrage here. Don't take to the PC, Do Gooder, Bleeding Heart, liberal agenda kindly round these parts.

yes because personal abuse is considered and thought out :rolleyes: christ

hes surely banned for that

Strata · 26-07-2010 02:29PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The reason for moving him around isn't stated and it wasn't done without due consideration. They were obviously trying different strategies to tackle his behaviour, finding it wasn't working, then trying something new. They didn't move him around just for the hell of it. These people are professionals and they know what they are doing. It appears this person was beyond help and didn't want to be helped. That is not the HSEs fault. No matter what a persons upbringing they have to begin to exhibit some personal responsibility at 17

What more could they have done apart from have him committed?

To the people who are blaming the state/HSE: can you answer the question in bold. I really don't understand how you expect the state/HSE/social workers to help someone who just doesn't seem to want help.

TheDriver · 26-07-2010 03:10PM

I agree totally that too much blame is put on HSE etc. Yes the Govt does things a bit wrong at times but a lot of the public sees these cases as a poor young fella who is lovely but hard done by in life etc. In reality some of these kids are very hard to deal with and short of tying him to a chair, you can't do much to stop them leaving/taking drugs etc. I work with teenagers and I can tell you its an eyeopener for both what they are capable of and what their Parents are capable of.
Its a sad case and maybe the HSE could have done somethings differently but its a tough job working these cases

Einhard · 26-07-2010 03:36PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What more could they have done apart from have him committed?

Strata wrote: »

To the people who are blaming the state/HSE: can you answer the question in bold. I really don't understand how you expect the state/HSE/social workers to help someone who just doesn't seem to want help.

They could have, and should have, ensured that it never got to the stage whereby an individual social worker had to dig into her own pocket to pay for accomodation for a clearly disturbed 17 y/o boy. The HSE were responsible for his care for 5 years before he died. They had ample time to put the proper supports in place, and devise a strategy of care that would at least have given him a chance in life. But they failed him, like his family failed him.

That's not to have a go at individual care workers, but rather the system which restrains and frustrates them, and prevents them from carrying out their job. Ask any social worker and they'll you the exact same- that the HSE child protection strategy is not fit for purpose. And, when a state body assumes the responsibility of the family, it's not at all unreasonable that it should be held to the same standards of accountability.

Strata · 26-07-2010 03:49PM

Einhard wrote: »

They could have, and should have, ensured that it never got to the stage whereby an individual social worker had to dig into her own pocket to pay for accomodation for a clearly disturbed 17 y/o boy. The HSE were responsible for his care for 5 years before he died. They had ample time to put the proper supports in place, and devise a strategy of care that would at least have given him a chance in life. But they failed him, like his family failed him.

That's not to have a go at individual care workers, but rather the system which restrains and frustrates them, and prevents them from carrying out their job. Ask any social worker and they'll you the exact same- that the HSE child protection strategy is not fit for purpose. And, when a state body assumes the responsibility of the family, it's not at all unreasonable that it should be held to the same standards of accountability.

But if a child/teenager keeps running away and taking drugs what do you suggest the HSE do? Lock him up? It's all very well to talk about strategy but I just don't know how you can save someone if they don't want to be saved.

washiskin · 26-07-2010 03:57PM

I must admit that my blood was boiling when I heard the mother and aunt slagging off the HSE for what happened to this poor lad. I just want to punch the radio when these absent parents try to palm off the blame to anyone and everyone in such a grubby manner when they lose a child they didn't think was worth the effort of rearing themselves. :mad:

Einhard · 26-07-2010 04:20PM

Strata wrote: »

But if a child/teenager keeps running away and taking drugs what do you suggest the HSE do? Lock him up? It's all very well to talk about strategy but I just don't know how you can save someone if they don't want to be saved.

No, I expect him to have regular access to a social worker. I expect him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, and have routine follow up meetings. I expect a clear and cogent strategy to be out into place regarding his needs. And, if needs be, I expect that he be placed in a secure facility so that he can recieve the attention and support he needs. These aren't exactly outlandish expectations. It's proven that early and effective intervention and targetted care can have a hugely positive impact on "problem" children, transforming them and their potential. This boy received neither from the HSE and this, coupled with his already dysfunctional upbringing, meant that he never really had a chance.

Strata · 26-07-2010 04:31PM

Einhard wrote: »

No, I expect him to have regular access to a social worker. I expect him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, and have routine follow up meetings. I expect a clear and cogent strategy to be out into place regarding his needs.

How do you know that this wasn't provided to him?

And, if needs be, I expect that he be placed in a secure facility so that he can recieve the attention and support he needs.

There would be uproar if he had been locked up and not allowed to leave - even if it was for his own safety.

These aren't exactly outlandish expectations. It's proven that early and effective intervention and targetted care can have a hugely positive impact on "problem" children, transforming them and their potential. This boy received neither from the HSE

Again, how do you know the boy didn't get enough help from the HSE?

and this, coupled with his already dysfunctional upbringing, meant that he never really had a chance.

He didn't have an easy life I agree, but I don't think you can blame the HSE.

A quote from the article

"An inquest earlier this week heard how Christopher had died at the age of 17 from severe pneumonia with drug use as a complicating factor, in May 2009, just one month after discharging himself from hospital against the wishes of doctors and his social care team."

Seriously - what can the HSE do if someone wants to discharge themselves from hospital?

the_syco · 26-07-2010 04:43PM

mathepac wrote: »

The report doesn't say that.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-beautiful-affectionate-boy-2270963.html

An inquest earlier this week heard how Christopher had died at the age of 17 from severe pneumonia with drug use as a complicating factor, in May 2009, just one month after discharging himself from hospital against the wishes of doctors and his social care team.

=-=

At 10 years old, his family abandoned him. When the mother moved to Manchester, the older sister became a mother figure for him. When he was 16, she overdosed. He was found her grave, having cut himself in the B&B. At 17 he died a month after he discharged himself from hospital.

I put Christopher into voluntary care when he was nine and a half because I couldn't manage him, he was playing out too much. From the way he died and the conditions in which he died, to me, it seems like he just gave up," his mother said.

You gave up on him a long time ago, you f**king slag. When he died, it would seem he had no-one, no-one, to turn to.

Christopher's aunt said he was very disturbed, "he had mental problems, he was in St Patrick's Institution and he tried to hang himself".

She didn't mention what he did, or who he may have harmed to get into prison.

=-=

I hope the parents don't get a penny. Do they have any kids left, alive?

K-9 · 26-07-2010 04:46PM

Strata wrote: »

He didn't have an easy life I agree, but I don't think you can blame the HSE.

A quote from the article

"An inquest earlier this week heard how Christopher had died at the age of 17 from severe pneumonia with drug use as a complicating factor, in May 2009, just one month after discharging himself from hospital against the wishes of doctors and his social care team."

Seriously - what can the HSE do if someone wants to discharge themselves from hospital?

Probably not much but for me, it would me more about how he got to a situation like that in the first place and if anything can learned from it.

Einhard · 26-07-2010 04:47PM

Strata wrote: »

Seriously - what can the HSE do if someone wants to discharge themselves from hospital?

You're missing my point. The HSE had 5 years to work with this boy to ensure it didn't come to that. I'm not saying they would have been successful, that he could have been transformed. But all the evidence suggests that he might have been had proper support been in place from the beginning. They weren't though, and that's clearly the fault of the institutional HSE. And that's not just my opinion, but that of social workers who work at the coalface.

Strata · 26-07-2010 04:54PM

Einhard wrote: »

You're missing my point. The HSE had 5 years to work with this boy to ensure it didn't come to that. I'm not saying they would have been successful, that he could have been transformed. But all the evidence suggests that he might have been had proper support been in place from the beginning. They weren't though, and that's clearly the fault of the institutional HSE. And that's not just my opinion, but that of social workers who work at the coalface.

But where is this evidence you speak of?

And in response to your earlier post:

No, I expect him to have regular access to a social worker. I expect him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, and have routine follow up meetings. I expect a clear and cogent strategy to be out into place regarding his needs.

How do you know that this wasn't provided to him?

And, if needs be, I expect that he be placed in a secure facility so that he can recieve the attention and support he needs.

There would be uproar if he had been locked up and not allowed to leave - even if it was for his own safety.

These aren't exactly outlandish expectations. It's proven that early and effective intervention and targetted care can have a hugely positive impact on "problem" children, transforming them and their potential. This boy received neither from the HSE

Again, how do you know the boy didn't get enough help from the HSE?

sam34 · 26-07-2010 05:03PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What more could they have done aside from have him committed to a psychiatric institution essentially imprisoning him for the rest of his life?

firstly, a committal to a psychiatric institution is not life-long... in the first instance it is 21 days, if that detention order is subsequently renewed it can only be done for a max of 3 months, the third order for a max of 6 months and any further ones for a max of 12 months.

secondly, under the Mental Health Act 2001 someone cannot be detained because of alcohol/drug addiction. not only is there no provision for it under the law, it is a specific exclusion under the act.

*before people jump down my throat over this, i am aware he had other problems such as self-cutting from a young age, but there has been no mention in any report i read of him having a mental illness such as severe depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, which are the usual conditions that people who are committed have.

Einhard wrote: »

No, I expect him to have regular access to a social worker. I expect him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, and have routine follow up meetings

maybe he had these meetings. maybe they were scheduled and he didnt attend. maybe he attended but didnt engage properly.

Einhard wrote: »

And, if needs be, I expect that he be placed in a secure facility so that he can recieve the attention and support he needs.

see above.

Einhard · 26-07-2010 05:27PM

Strata wrote: »

But where is this evidence you speak of?

When it came to their eduction policy, the Jesuit's had a saying: "Give me the boy, and I'll give you the man". This wasn't some pithy motto. It was recognition of the fact that childhood is the crucial in determining individual character and development. The Jesuits realised this intuitively, and now there are reams of scientific data to back it up. It's easily available; all you have to do is google it.

No, I expect him to have regular access to a social worker. I expect him to be assessed by a psychiatrist, and have routine follow up meetings. I expect a clear and cogent strategy to be out into place regarding his needs.

How do you know that this wasn't provided to him?

I know because the HSE itself admits that it's Child Protection service is entirely dysfunctional.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0430/1224269370841.html

I know because the HSE admits that it is failing even those children who it manages to get into foster care.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0714/breaking35.html

Out of 316 children in foster care, 30% had not been assigned a social worker. 191 had not been cisited by a social worker in the previous six months, while another 53 had not seen one in years. In several instances where allegations of abuse had been made against a member of the foster family, the child was not removed from that home. And these are children who have been fostered and therefore less "disturbed" in general that the likes of Christopher O' Reilly. Nobody could look at that report and claim that the HSE is discharging its responsibilities to children in its care. Indeed, the HSE itself admits that this is the case.

I know because Norah Gibbons, currently the director of advocacy with Barnados, a social worker, and the woman appointed tby the government to review the deaths of children in HSE care over the past decade, stated at the McGill Summer School that the HSE is not fit for the purpose of protecting the welfare of children. That it "is not fit for the task".

And, if needs be, I expect that he be placed in a secure facility so that he can recieve the attention and support he needs.

There would be uproar if he had been locked up and not allowed to leave - even if it was for his own safety.

No there wouldn't. The state has the authority to confine disturbed children to secure institutions to ensure they get the help and support they need. The problem though is that there are not enough of these facilities, not enough staff to operate them, and not enough social workers to engage with the children placed in them.

the Cork teen tragedy

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