the Cork teen tragedy

thebaz

The media are all over this case hammering the HSE, but for once surely the mother (or father ) should take responsibility not the State - his mother put him in care at 9 , didnt see him for 6 months prior to his death - but the State/HSE tried to house him wherever possible including at Jurys hotel , at an employees expense - it is a tragedy and I don't know all the facts but from whats given, surely the media and family should show a little more dignity on what seams an incredibly tough life , and stop blaming the state for this one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-beautiful-affectionate-boy-2270963.html

Deus Ex Machina

Liberals in avoidance of personal accountability shocker

orourkeda

Would it be fair to suggest that the state is unfairly blamed in a lot of these cases?

xzanti

Why wasn't he in a Hospital if he was 'consumed by pneumonia'

thebaz

xzanti wrote: »

Why wasn't he in a Hospital if he was 'consumed by pneumonia'

he discharged himself against Doctors advice

biko

She believes Christopher's social workers should have been able to force the teenager to have the medical treatment he so badly needed.

Yes, point the finger somewhere else.

aDeener

thebaz wrote: »

The media are all over this case hammering the HSE, but for once surely the mother (or father ) should take responsibility not the State - his mother put him in care at 9 , didnt see him for 6 months prior to his death - but the State/HSE tried to house him wherever possible including at Jurys hotel , at an employees expense - it is a tragedy and I don't know all the facts but from whats given, surely the media and family should show a little more dignity on what seams an incredibly tough life , and stop blaming the state for this one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-beautiful-affectionate-boy-2270963.html

don't see how its a tragedy when he got pneumonia as a result of drug abuse. no one forced the drugs on him

personal responsiblity - everyone knows the dangers of drugs

stovelid

Jesus, the poor child. Looks like he was failed by everybody.

aDeener wrote: »

don't see how its a tragedy when he got pneumonia as a result of drug abuse. no one forced the drugs on him

personal responsiblity - everyone knows the dangers of drugs

s.t.f.u

Nermal

orourkeda wrote: »

Would it be fair to suggest that the state is unfairly blamed in a lot of these cases?

Absolutely. I don't know why the HSE is getting the blame for addicts offing themselves or getting murdered.

thebaz

aDeener wrote: »

don't see how its a tragedy when he got pneumonia as a result of drug abuse. no one forced the drugs on him

personal responsiblity - everyone knows the dangers of drugs

well he obviously had a pretty tough life , but my point is why are we (the State) getting blamed for all the wrongs and everything in his life , when perhaps his parents should have shown some more love or effort when it was needed - rather than coming out now saying how the State failed him , when to my eyes they did what they could even putting him up in a hotel in these times of hardship.
I dont blame the aunt , but i think the parent should just let this rest.

Kasabian

aDeener wrote: »

don't see how its a tragedy when he got pneumonia as a result of drug abuse. no one forced the drugs on him

personal responsiblity - everyone knows the dangers of drugs

He was a child :eek:.

aDeener

Kasabian wrote: »

He was a child :eek:.

he was 17

genericguy

the family sees that the HSE is taking stick from the media for the last while, thinks they can get on the bandwagon and shirk their own responsibilities and assuage their guilt. the last few cases i've read about have been like that too.

this is just like that young lad that got murdered in blanchardstown and was AWOL for months until his body was found - you'd his whole family complaining that the HSE should have taken better care of him. I'd put it to them, that they, his fcuking family, were responsible for taking care of him.

aDeener

stovelid wrote: »

Jesus, the poor child. Looks like he was failed by everybody.



s.t.f.u

yeah absolutely failed by everybody, nothing to do with himself. oh no not at all.

maybe you should stfu :rolleyes:

DOC09UNAM

aDeener wrote: »

he was 17

He died at 17, he was in care since 10.

"Christopher first came to the attention of the HSE at the age of 10 when he was showing signs of self-cutting. He was taken into care -- and was abusing drugs by the age of 12."

I know I certainly wasn't aware of the dangers of drugs at 12, and I had parents, imagine what it was like for him, being thrown into care, that must bring on a whole heap of depression right there, you shouldn't judge unless you've been in his circumstances, which you clearly haven't.

southsiderosie

The article I read about this case focused less on the family, and more on his background and last few weeks of his life.

Based on the article it sounds like he had some psychiatric issues that would only be exacerbated by drug use...which started at age 12. The state can only do so much when these kids get older - you can't take care of people who don't want to take care of themselves.

That said, I hate when the family goes on and on about how wonderful the kids was when it seems like they didn't give two ****s about him when he was alive. I'd be more sympathetic if they had been lobbying for years to put him in a psychiatric clinic or something, rather than complaining after the fact and being 'shocked' that this ill, addicted kid 'looked terrible' and died in an unbelievably grim fashion.

Sad.

Ricardo G

Horrible to think about any 12 year old taking drugs when this is supposed to be a time of innocence and fun for any normal child. Parents are great to point the finger when things like this happen, i see it so often and there's no excuse !!:(

aDeener

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

He died at 17, he was in care since 10.

"Christopher first came to the attention of the HSE at the age of 10 when he was showing signs of self-cutting. He was taken into care -- and was abusing drugs by the age of 12."

I know I certainly wasn't aware of the dangers of drugs at 12, and I had parents, imagine what it was like for him, being thrown into care, that must bring on a whole heap of depression right there, you shouldn't judge unless you've been in his circumstances, which you clearly haven't.

fuck all people have been in them circumstances. using your logic people can't comment on the premiership unless they themselves were brilliant footballers....:rolleyes:

there is more than enough awareness of drugs out there. i knew full well when i was 12 the dangers of drugs. your parents never told you about them??

there has to be personal responsibility, that said, i was harsh earlier solely blaming him - his parents have a lot to answer for. ya cant go round blaming the state for your own faults

DOC09UNAM

aDeener wrote: »

fuck all people have been in them circumstances. using your logic people can't comment on the premiership unless they themselves were brilliant footballers....:rolleyes:

there is more than enough awareness of drugs out there. i knew full well when i was 12 the dangers of drugs. your parents never told you about them??

there has to be personal responsibility, that said, i was harsh earlier solely blaming him - his parents have a lot to answer for. ya cant go round blaming the state for your own faults

Yeah, a 10 year old being put into care, and trying to understand his mindstate, is the same thing as watching a game of football...


I'll happily take the warning for this, you are an idiot.

MOD NOTE: Poster banned for this.

aDeener

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Yeah, a 10 year old being put into care, and trying to understand his mindstate, is the same thing as watching a game of football...


I'll happily take the warning for this, you are an idiot.

yes, because that is exactly what i said.... try reading what i wrote :rolleyes:

jiltloop

aDeener wrote: »

there is more than enough awareness of drugs out there. i knew full well when i was 12 the dangers of drugs. your parents never told you about them??

Eh... he basicaly had no parents at the age of 12! There was no one to protect him or warn him about the dangers of drugs. He probably had to find comfort somewhere and obviously drugs were the only thing around to provide it for him. And of course we all know how that ends up.

Mrmoe

jiltloop wrote: »

Eh... he basicaly had no parents at the age of 12! There was no one to protect him or warn him about the dangers of drugs. He probably had to find comfort somewhere and obviously drugs were the only thing around to provide it for him. And of course we all know how that ends up.

That is the point he is trying to make, the parents should be held accountable for a large proportion of what happened. Generally the damage is done when the HSE has to step in. No one should be immune from criticism but the parents should be fairly high up on the pecking order.

The Aussie

Its a sad case where everyone failed him including his parents (only heard the mum being interviewed though), but imo 17 is old enough to take care of yourself and to be accountable for your own actions.

I know i was at 17 i had started an apprenticeship with a second job and started driving had a substantial loan over my head and was for all intense purposes a functioning member of society, so the excuse of he was only 17 just does not wash with most people.

I know i was at 17 i had started an apprenticeship with a second job and started driving had a substantial loan over my head and was for all intense purposes a functioning member of society, so the excuse of he was only 17 just does not wash with most people.[/QUOTE]

wow good for you ! you were put into care too then at nine ? ( somehow i doubt it but prove me wrong) there are all sorts of people to blame here but the story as a whole is just tragic .

ceadaoin.

Mrmoe wrote: »

That is the point he is trying to make, the parents should be held accountable for a large proportion of what happened. Generally the damage is done when the HSE has to step in. No one should be immune from criticism but the parents should be fairly high up on the pecking order.

+1

His mother effectively washed her hands of her son by putting him into care as soon as things got a bit tough for her, at the age of 9 ffs :mad:

She has no right to complain about the state not taking care of him, that's supposed to be her job! From what I've read it seems they did all they could for him, making someone into a scapegoat isn't going to help matters. She'll be looking for a payout from them now probably

scientific1982

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

Liberals in avoidance of personal accountability shocker

Where the f@#k did you get liberals from this story.

thebaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

His mother effectively washed her hands of her son by putting him into care as soon as things got a bit tough for her, at the age of 9 ffs :mad:

She has no right to complain about the state not taking care of him, that's supposed to be her job! From what I've read it seems they did all they could for him, making someone into a scapegoat isn't going to help matters. She'll be looking for a payout from them now probably

that in a nutshell is my point - the mother is taking no responsibility for damage caused - and the media just launch an attack on an uncaring health service - what were they supposed to do put him in a better hotel ? force him into a straight jacket to receive treatment for his ailments - tragic all around

The Aussie

[quote=[Deleted User];67093948]
wow good for you ! you were put into care too then at nine ? ( somehow i doubt it but prove me wrong) there are all sorts of people to blame here but the story as a whole is just tragic . [/QUOTE]

http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Lovejoy

I love the Helen Lovejoy response, "Won't somebody please think of the children" the point is that no one forced him to check himself out of hospital, no one forced drugs into himself, no one else got him kicked out of the hotel, judging by your response someone should have tucked him into bed to stop his nasty little cold (a small bit of sarcasm intended), at 17 there is a certain amount of ownership of your life, he had none, if he went on to commit a serious crime to feed his drug habit i wonder would he have the outpouring of sympathy.

Btw good for me, wow....

mathepac

aDeener wrote: »

... he got pneumonia as a result of drug abuse ...

The report doesn't say that.

judging by your response someone should have tucked him into bed to stop his nasty little cold (a small bit of sarcasm intended), at 17 there is a certain amount of ownership of your life, he had none, if he went on to commit a serious crime to feed his drug habit i wonder would he have the outpouring of sympathy.

Btw good for me, wow...QUOTE

It must be great to think we live in a world where everyone has the same opportunities and good start to allow you to avail of the many choices most people have. Tuck him up in bed and help the guy out yes i would definitely , a preferable option to letting the guy die alone in squalor at the age of 17 but that just me. Ownership of ones life is dependent on many factors opportunity and chance have a lot to do with it. I dont this guy had much of either.

Einhard

The parents obviously have to share the burden of responsibility in cases like this, but I don't think that it's too much to ask that once the state take a child into care, they discharge their responsibility towards him or her in a reasonable manner. The parents of this boy clearly failed him, but the HSE did also. That's not a liberal thing to say, or an attempt to deflect blame, it's a statement of fact.

As for the remarks about the boy himself showing more responsibility, it is clear from the reports that he had serious mental issues from an early age, and that these were exacerbated by dysfunctional family circumstances. He didn't really stand much of a chance. Some people do seek to absolve the individual of personal responsibility and transfer it to the state, but equally, others, especially it seems in AH, show a rather callous disregard for individual circumstances. The reason this boy didn't make the right decisions was because he wasn't equipped to make them. For this, his family are primarily responsible, but the state also have to accept some blame. They had him for 5 years, and failed to provide him with the most basic of needs- a secure, stable environment in which to live.

caseyann

thebaz wrote: »

he discharged himself against Doctors advice

I know its wrong,but this touches close to home right here i lost a family memember and he signed himself out of hospital a week previous to dying.They knew something wrong but couldnt make him stay,he would have been alive today if only they could have made him stay.I wish they could have

Poor kid dying with no one there for him

thebaz

Einhard wrote: »

The parents obviously have to share the burden of responsibility in cases like this, but I don't think that it's too much to ask that once the state take a child into care, they discharge their responsibility towards him or her in a reasonable manner. The parents of this boy clearly failed him, but the HSE did also. That's not a liberal thing to say, or an attempt to deflect blame, it's a statement of fact.

did the state not try to house him in all types of accommodation , and each time he absconded - if they had committed him to a Psych Ward against his wishes there would have been outcry - the fact that someone from the HSE put him up in Jurys at there own expense shows that they cared - in fact it was society and his own family who failed him if anyone

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

did the state not try to house him in all types of accommodation , and each time he absconded - if they had committed him to a Psych Ward against his wishes there would have been outcry - the fact that someone from the HSE put him up in Jurys at there own expense shows that they cared - in fact it was society and his own family who failed him if anyone

the hse are a state funded body we the taxpayer fund them i am sure the hse didnt do a whip round from their wage packets .

thebaz

[quote=[Deleted User];67095932]the hse are a state funded body we the taxpayer fund them i am sure the hse didnt do a whip round from their wage packets .[/QUOTE]

are you implying his death then, is the HSE's fault ??

Dudess

I just knew this horribly sad case was gonna get the heartless, cold AH treatment...

Einhard

thebaz wrote: »

did the state not try to house him in all types of accommodation , and each time he absconded - if they had committed him to a Psych Ward against his wishes there would have been outcry - the fact that someone from the HSE put him up in Jurys at there own expense shows that they cared - in fact it was society and his own family who failed him if anyone

I'm not saying they didn't care. But they didn't take care of him. there's a huge difference. I'm sure individual social workers tried their best for him, but the system failed. A child of 12 needs a stable, secure environment in which to grow and develop. This isn't some liberal, airy fairy supposition on my part either; it's a generally acknowledged reality. And part of HSE child protection strategy. And yet this boy was bounced around from temporary home to temporary home without any semblance of stability. No child could have prospered in such a situation.

The fact that he had to be housed in a hotel is an indictment of the failure of the HSE system. He was placed ther because there was no where else to go. And it was purely on the initiative of a social worker. If the system was fit for purpose, she would never have found herself in such a situation.

thebaz

I agree Einhard - the sad thing is when he was alive no one seamed to want him - the HSE had to lie about him to get him accommodation - thats what I meant about a society thing - I'm not a fan of the HSE myself, but i know there are good people there, as well as the beurocratic pen pushers - sometimes when no one wants you it is left to your family - and in this instance there concern was 6 months too late

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

are you implying his death then, is the HSE's fault ??

no read my previous posts .

stovelid

aDeener wrote: »

maybe you should stfu :rolleyes:

You've trumped me with the deployment of rolleyes, it must be said.

aDeener

stovelid wrote: »

You've trumped me with the deployment of rolleyes, it must be said.

no i think the common sense approach regarding personal responsibility which you don't believe in is what come up trumps....

i got drunk last night and got in a row, will you back me up when i blame the state for my behaviour, it was obviously their fault??

oh my word

rovert

Must say there some heartless pricks in this thread using this case for a trolling job.

K-9

There's a lot of stuff coming out about the HSE and the care it gives children, children going missing under their care, 440 missing since 2000:

One fifth of foreign children in care 'go missing' - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Cases like the OP's need to be highlighted. Yes, the mother failed him too but the state is supposed to look after children like this. I know 17 isn't a child, but the background is shocking.

dreamers75

one less, one less, one less smackhead we gotta worry about.

rovert

dreamers75 wrote: »

one less, one less, one less smackhead we gotta worry about.

^ Probably cant hold his drink.

Handsome Bob

Tragedy that the poor chap couldn't of had a better upbringing.

round tower huntsman

thebaz wrote: »

The media are all over this case hammering the HSE, but for once surely the mother (or father ) should take responsibility not the State - his mother put him in care at 9 , didnt see him for 6 months prior to his death - but the State/HSE tried to house him wherever possible including at Jurys hotel , at an employees expense - it is a tragedy and I don't know all the facts but from whats given, surely the media and family should show a little more dignity on what seams an incredibly tough life , and stop blaming the state for this one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/a-beautiful-affectionate-boy-2270963.html

often wonder where the extended family are in these cases. i know in some cases there's no one else but the state to help but if it was my neice or nephew they'd be with us and not left in the hands of a state that doesnt give a fcuk.
but fact is he was left in hands of the state and they failed him totally.

stovelid

aDeener wrote: »

no i think the common sense approach regarding personal responsibility which you don't believe in is what come up trumps....

i got drunk last night and got in a row, will you back me up when i blame the state for my behaviour, it was obviously their fault??

Nice automatic link-up with crime there. Just what I'd expect from the fuckwit brigade.

My original point was that this person had a terrible life. If you want to call it that. To badly paraphrase an old quote: "no door ever opened for him when it could have closed".

I'm of the paradoxical opinion that decent rehabilitation should always be available for junkies while acknowledging (from far more experience than most people here) that some of them do take the piss.

That said: I really don't get how people cannot see at least some causality between the wretched, truncated life of this teenager and his drug abuse. Are some of the people here so blinded by a comfortable upbringing that they cannot acknowledge that some (if not all) of these people would have taken a different path with a stable background?

And before Joe Duffying the parents out of it: they themselves are probably grown-up versions of that child albeit that they survived.

stovelid

stovelid wrote: »

Nice automatic link-up with crime there. Just what I'd expect from the fuckwit brigade.

My original point was that this person had a terrible life. If you want to call it that. To badly paraphrase an old quote: "no door ever opened for him when it could have closed".

I'm of the paradoxical opinion that decent rehabilitation should always be available for junkies while acknowledging (from far more experience than most people here) that some of them do take the piss.

That said: I really don't get how people cannot see at least some causality between the wretched, truncated life of this teenager and his drug abuse. Are some of the people here so blinded by a comfortable upbringing that they cannot acknowledge that some (if not all) of these people would have taken a different path with a stable background?

And before Joe Duffying the parents out of it: they themselves are probably grown-up versions of that child albeit that they survived.

exactly well said !

K-9

Enough of the considered, thought out responses Stovelid.

We do moral unthinking outrage here. Don't take to the PC, Do Gooder, Bleeding Heart, liberal agenda kindly round these parts.