Mdma slowly making it's way back to therapy sessions..

dr.bollocko · 25-07-2010 04:12PM

penguin88 wrote: »

This is really the key issue. Sure it may help at the time for therapy, but this has to be considered against any come down effects or long term effects it could have and how these would impact on the patient's (mental) health.

But that would be true of all proposed medications wouldn't it?
I mean, how many prescription cures for depression significantly beat the placebo over a long period of time?

Elevator · 25-07-2010 04:13PM

penguin88 wrote: »

This is really the key issue. Sure it may help at the time for therapy, but this has to be considered against any come down effects or long term effects it could have and how these would impact on the patient's (mental) health.

I'm sure when they use this in the therapy environment we would be talking about miniscule amounts of the drug,

doubt very much that we're talking 1/2 grams or even .25 grams here, also it is bein used to break down the defences a little and build on the good place the drug helps you get to

Roro4Brit · 25-07-2010 04:13PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Banned

Good man/woman.

What would happen the next day after therapy - would there not be the come down. I would have thought that paranoia, anxiousness, irritability etc would make a PTS sufferer worse - or is it a matter of dose here?

25-07-2010 04:14PM

penguin88 wrote: »

This is really the key issue. Sure it may help at the time for therapy, but this has to be considered against any come down effects or long term effects it could have and how these would impact on the patient's (mental) health.

From the article.

The challenge in therapy is to encourage repeated recall of the trauma ("familiarization") without inducing psychic numbing or just hysteria. Of course it helps to be in a psychotherapist's quiet office, away from any battlefield or dangerous city. But PTSD tends to stay with a person. He may bring it to bed (as partners discover when a returning vet wakes up screaming), to the highway, to workplaces, perhaps to any argument or frustration or hearing of loud sounds. What to do?

The problem is fear--pervasive, invasive, recurrent fear. What MDMA does, according to the research, is to provide at least a brief experience of what life feels like without the aftermath of trauma. In this state, learning can occur.

It's not about giving them a temporary feel good buzz.

weiland79 · 25-07-2010 04:19PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Banned

Didn't see that coming at all.

Novella · 25-07-2010 04:53PM

I dunno. I think it's a good idea. Even if it only has a temporary effect. Temporarily feeling better trumps never feeling better at all. Plus, if it helps patients relax to the extent that their therapy then becomes more beneficial to them, surely that's a good thing.

But then again, I haven't exactly looked into it so that's just my initial reaction.

Odysseus · 25-07-2010 04:57PM

As a psychotherapist no, it appears that all that is being sought is a bypass of the minds defenses, I wouldn't see this as a good thing and I think most therapists would agree with me.

Kurtosis · 25-07-2010 05:18PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

But that would be true of all proposed medications wouldn't it?
I mean, how many prescription cures for depression significantly beat the placebo over a long period of time?

Spot on, the same criteria as any other medicines would have to be met. I think there'd be a tendency to think maybe that it wouldn't have to though since it's not the treatment itself, merely facilitating or enhancing the real treatment (the psychotherapy).

On your other point, I have read reviews that have shown TCAs and SSRIs to be superior to placebo in treating depression, though I'm not sure of the time scales of the studies. The evidence for their efficacy in mild depression (as opposed to moderate or severe) is where it gets patchy I think.

Elevator wrote: »

I'm sure when they use this in the therapy environment we would be talking about miniscule amounts of the drug,

doubt very much that we're talking 1/2 grams or even .25 grams here, also it is bein used to break down the defences a little and build on the good place the drug helps you get to

Exactly, it would seem to be very different dosages compared to recreational use - small doses perhaps a week or more apart - and so the risk of adverse effects would be reduced.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not about giving them a temporary feel good buzz.

Never said it was. I suggested that while its use could facilitate psychotherapy, the benefit of this would have to be considered in the context of potential adverse effects/long term effects occurring in a patient who suffers from a mental condition.

My name is URL · 25-07-2010 05:26PM

Odysseus wrote: »

As a psychotherapist no, it appears that all that is being sought is a bypass of the minds defenses, I wouldn't see this as a good thing and I think most therapists would agree with me.

Isn't that essentially what psychotherapy is all about.. getting through people's defenses and allowing them to see that they can too?

Odysseus · 25-07-2010 06:01PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Isn't that essentially what psychotherapy is all about.. getting through people's defenses and allowing them to see that they can too?

Through language not through psychoactive chemicals, therapy being a process; it seeks to work through defenses no bypass them. Peoples defenses also sereve a purpose in everday life, I think most therapists would be concerned by this.

Abrasax · 25-07-2010 07:05PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Through language not through psychoactive chemicals, therapy being a process; it seeks to work through defenses no bypass them. Peoples defenses also sereve a purpose in everday life, I think most therapists would be concerned by this.

It was used by 1000's of psychotherapists in the U.S. in private practise until the DEA made it illegal after it's use spread, so not all are/were concerned it seems.

This taken from recent trials into PTSD..

Participants treated with a combination of MDMA and psychotherapy saw clinically and statistically significant improvements in their PTSD -- over 80% of the trial group no longer met the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, stipulated in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM-IV-TR) following the trial, compared to only 25% of the placebo group. In addition, all three subjects who reported being unable to work due to PTSD were able to return to work following treatment with MDMA.

Odysseus · 25-07-2010 07:29PM

Abrasax wrote: »

It was used by 1000's of psychotherapists in the U.S. in private practise until the DEA made it illegal after it's use spread, so not all are/were concerned it seems.

This taken from recent trials into PTSD..

Psychotherapists don't prescribe, psychiatrist's do and if IIRC it was used by the latter.

Abrasax · 25-07-2010 07:35PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Psychotherapists don't prescribe, psychiatrist's do and if IIRC it was used by the latter.

Alexander Shulgin, who had a licence from the DEA, would synthesize it, and he distributed it, through a network, to pyschotherapists all over the U.S., who would use it in their private practice.

He talks about it in his book PIKHAL, upon publication of which the DEA took away his licence.

From an interview he gave....

Q. How was MDMA used in therapy? Do you know how that began? Where and what the genesis of that was?

A. Its initial use in therapy was actually the ambition of a person who's now dead, a psychologist - I think in our book we call him Dr. Adam because his family still isn't comfortable with the public release of his identity. When I first mentioned this to him, he was in his late 60s, possibly early 70s and had retired from clinical practice. I said to him, 'You might take a look at this. You might find it of interest in the sense that it allows you to be honest with yourself.' This is the one thing that's quite difficult in any therapy interaction, this idea of candiness and honesty. We go to therapy to unravel some of our problems and then we don't talk about our problems. There's an unfortunate six months or so that is invested in establishing a dialogue. I felt this compound might achieve in one session what normally took six months. And he said, 'I'm getting too old for this nonsense, but okay, I'll try it.' He tried it. He came out of retirement. He took the material and I think he single-handedly, in the course of about four or five years, distributed it around the world to therapists - not to patients, but to therapists in the thousands. He was probably the Johnny Appleseed of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy.

dr.bollocko · 25-07-2010 08:34PM

Please do not advocate the use of recreational drugs folks.

Parsley · 25-07-2010 08:38PM

nodgienodge wrote: »

What you're saying is like "beer and alcohol are not the same thing"

...which is an entirely factual statement.

Odysseus · 25-07-2010 09:08PM

Abrasax wrote: »

Alexander Shulgin, who had a licence from the DEA, would synthesize it, and he distributed it, through a network, to pyschotherapists all over the U.S., who would use it in their private practice.

He talks about it in his book PIKHAL, upon publication of which the DEA took away his licence.

From an interview he gave....

No psychotherapist is going to stand over dispensing a drug, we have no right to do so, we are not medics. I would need to read the book, but that looks higly unethical to me. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, psychotherapy has been plagued by unethical associations.

Kold · 26-07-2010 03:06AM

[Carefully steps over what this thread has become and addresses the OP]

I had a mate who wrote his dissertation about using MDMA as a therapeutic drug for depression. I thought it was a pretty interesting concept. In my own experience, I've little time for the stuff any more. It doesn't really aid me in any of my life's current goals (although it is fun) but I find some emptiness creeping through and I just can't really justify it to myself any more.

I will state though, that my first experience of MDMA was one of the most positive experiences in my life and I think contributed very much to the way I am able to enjoy myself and the company of others today.

raah! · 26-07-2010 04:42AM

nodgienodge wrote: »

Let me introduce you to my little friend heroine

No but seriously sex and drugs (including kinder buenos) aren't the only 2 sources of pleasure in this world. And serotonin (note the "o") isn't the only brain chemical that makes you happy. I mean sooner or later your serotonin level needs to go up again once you're bored with the buzz you have. Inner peace and a fit and healthy body are a lot more long-lasting and powerful than elevated serotonin for an hour or so. You can't win marathons or kick ass in sales or business or sport with an ecstacy pill in your back pocket. I really do hate this drug in particular. I don't know why, The people who take it are usually really secretive about it. At least cokeheads and smackheads are honest about what they do but ecstacy users... ugh!...they're the same ****ing smug arrogant people who wear glasses and turtlenecks and work in video libraries and think they know everything when they fail to realise the very obvious fact that they're working in a video library. I know I'm spitting out stereotypes here but I'm just what saying with everyone's thinking.

Edit: If you still don't know what I mean listen to "I'm your pusher" and "Ya played yourself" by Ice-T. A rapper with a lot of ANTI-DRUG sentiment in his lyrics who still manages to somehow sound cool.

He's stoned on nodge!

hidinginthebush · 26-07-2010 11:42AM

nodgienodge wrote: »

You can't win marathons or kick ass in sales or business or sport with an ecstacy pill in your back pocket.

No you need kilos and kilos of coke for that

I really do hate this drug in particular. I don't know why, The people who take it are usually really secretive about it. At least cokeheads and smackheads are honest about what they do but ecstacy users... ugh!...they're the same ****ing smug arrogant people who wear glasses and turtlenecks and work in video libraries and think they know everything when they fail to realise the very obvious fact that they're working in a video library. I know I'm spitting out stereotypes here but I'm just what saying with everyone's thinking.

What's secretive about sweating your balls off hugging everything with a pulse? Also, have you forgotten the Lancet report by UK drugs advisor David Nutt which said MDMA was safer than alcohol and tobacco? What's more, I think you view of the people who actually do ecstacy is slightly distorted, wearing glasses and turtle-necks and working in video libraries? That's marijuana smokers or red wine drinkers... from the 1990's

ro_chez · 26-07-2010 12:54PM

you cant beat your first time!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJPkxorYCvg

FlipperThePriest · 26-07-2010 01:57PM

nodgienodge wrote: »

PS. I'm not anti-drug I'm pro-freedom. Is lying in an alleyway with a needle in your arm freedom? You're nothing but a rebellious fool.

nodgienodge wrote: »

That's not fair at all. Just cos my opinion is anti-drug and nearly everyone else is pro-drug. **** off

Sums up his argument!

Mdma slowly making it's way back to therapy sessions..

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