Salary of a Lecturer

Qualitymark · 16-07-2010 08:22AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

I do begrudge having to pay a large % of my wages to pay for crap or nonexistent services I receive.

Ah well, now that's another matter. With large parts of the civil service that's supposed to be running the country not even answering their phones, and in a big huff because their regular wage and state-supported pension have been cut a little, the services are crumbling. But that's not a lot to do with lecturers' wages.

Head The Wall · 16-07-2010 08:35AM

It is, we are discussing the relevance of the level of wages lecturers are paid and whether they deserve them or not. Also discussing the difference in levels and perks received by Unionised and non Unionised lecturers remuneration

mgegan · 16-07-2010 02:11PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Off the ball totally.

This thread was about the wages of lecturers in third level and by association the value for money this is.

As explained earlier for the most part they do not offer value for money even if they do perform a very important role in what is a very important part of our society - Education.

Your assertion that teachers, guards and nurses are 'unimaginative and unambitious' is a slur on what are necessary and for the hardest working of our public servants.

There is waste in the public sector. Lots of waste. The problem here is that a one shoe fits all, one brush paints all approach will not weed out this waste.

As to your point about entrepreneurs we hear all this rubbish about the country needing more entrepreneurs all the time from the media. I don’t for one minute buy into this. In my view entrepreneurs are people with very little schooling that are no able to assess risk and the either end up a millionaire or in jail!

ardmacha · 16-07-2010 02:28PM

I do begrudge having to pay a large % of my wages to pay for crap or nonexistent services

Education provided in Ireland is neither crap nor nonexistent.

As explained earlier for the most part they do not offer value for money

I think you mean as stated earlier, there was little clear explanation provided for the most part.

The_Honeybadger · 16-07-2010 02:34PM

AARRRRGH wrote: »

You got that part I bolded right anyway. But its not that these unambitious young people dream of becoming teachers, guards and nurses. Its that they really hate to see anyone else do well for themselves. They want everything taken off others so they dont have to feel like wasters themselves.

I bet most of the begrudgers are paying the lower rate of tax or no tax at all.
Effectively being subsidized themselves by the very people they love to moan about, and then crying that their tax is not being spent well.
They got themselves sh1it jobs and are sickened looking at anyone who bothered to think about how their career would pan out and actually got themselves a nice job.

As crudely as you make your point there is alot of truth in it, many people simply can't stand to see others in well paid secure employment when they are themselves down on their luck. There are others however who are genuinely worried about the future of the country and the economy in general, so you can't dismiss everybody who questions the generous arrangements public servants enjoy as merely jealous.

kuntboy · 16-07-2010 02:52PM

I wonder if students were given just notes and no lectures what the % difference in exam results would be?

mgegan · 16-07-2010 03:44PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Education provided in Ireland is neither crap nor nonexistent.

I think you mean as stated earlier, there was little clear explanation provided for the most part.

Is working an hour a day over the year not enough of an explanation.

ardmacha · 16-07-2010 06:10PM

Is working an hour a day over the year not enough of an explanation.

Where did someone show this?

20Cent · 17-07-2010 12:52AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Where did someone show this?

Nobody did. Like the fictional post of a lecturers job and assorted rubbish some think that because they've been to college they know everything about lecturing. Even the guy who doesn't work for a living puts his oar in.
Some won't be happy till we are all on minimum wage paying off debts for life while a small minority hoard the wealth and leach off actual workers.

Head The Wall · 17-07-2010 04:05AM

Yes thats right smart man, Thats what everyone wants :rolleyes:

Welease · 17-07-2010 09:09AM

20Cent wrote: »

Some won't be happy till we are all on minimum wage paying off debts for life while a small minority hoard the wealth and leach off actual workers.

And some will never understand that unless there is some form of questioning about expenditure, then we continue to end up with our light touch financial regulation, FAS and HSE organisations, which have all proven to be shining example's of pissing away tax payers money with scant regard to value for money..

AARRRRGH · 17-07-2010 10:11AM

20Cent wrote: »

Nobody did. Like the fictional post of a lecturers job and assorted rubbish some think that because they've been to college they know everything about lecturing. Even the guy who doesn't work for a living puts his oar in.
Some won't be happy till we are all on minimum wage paying off debts for life while a small minority hoard the wealth and leach off actual workers.

Much like people who have been to school think they know what is involved in teaching. Makes me laugh. Im sure those who have been arrested know all about the guards work too.

I really do love the way most people i know who want to "tax the rich", "cut public sector pay", "cut pensions" and so on are either paying the low rate or no tax themselves. And seriously, they cant see why you laugh at them when they say these things.

Japer · 17-07-2010 11:46AM

Welease wrote: »

And some will never understand that unless there is some form of questioning about expenditure, then we continue to end up with our light touch financial regulation, FAS and HSE organisations, which have all proven to be shining example's of pissing away tax payers money with scant regard to value for money..

+1. And most people who agree with the high levels of public sector pay, pensions and dole in this country are themselves the recipients of such government handouts, and they cant see why people laugh at them when they want to preserve such government expenditure.

Permabear · 17-07-2010 01:05PM

This post has been deleted.

Qualitymark · 17-07-2010 02:04PM

Japer wrote: »

+1. And most people who agree with the high levels of public sector pay, pensions and dole in this country are themselves the recipients of such government handouts, and they cant see why people laugh at them when they want to preserve such government expenditure.

Not necessarily, Japer. I'm self-employed and have no state pension coming up to me, and the pension I did invest in collapsed.

But I still think people should be decently paid for their work, and I think turning on each other jealously takes our attention away from the genuinely guilty: the people in the Dáil still taking obscene pay and expenses - really obscene - while demanding that others tighten their belts.

The very second the Dáil is staffed by people earning €100k, that's when I'll start to believe in their idealism and good sense.

Japer · 17-07-2010 06:19PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not necessarily, Japer.

Fair enough ....but I said most...of course there are exceptions

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'm self-employed and have no state pension coming up to me, and the pension I did invest in collapsed.

like many others....and do you think it fair that the taxes you do pay go towards paying excessive ( excessive compared to public sector pensions elsewhere in the world ) pensions in the public sector....never mind the 18 months salary tax free " gratuity" public sector workers get on retirement ?

Qualitymark wrote: »

But I still think people should be decently paid for their work,

so do I , but not overpaid to the extent that many public service pensions exceed the average industrial wage in this country.

I agree with you the "genuinely guilty" as you put it, are our politicians, who themselves were + still are among the highest paid politicians in the world. Our public service is is still overpaid and underperforming from the top down, starting with our Taoiseach. A bad leader has a bad gang.

20Cent · 17-07-2010 07:28PM

Welease wrote: »

And some will never understand that unless there is some form of questioning about expenditure, then we continue to end up with our light touch financial regulation, FAS and HSE organisations, which have all proven to be shining example's of pissing away tax payers money with scant regard to value for money..

Questioning is fine but uninformed attacks on all sectors are not. Education is one of the few things we do well in this country, educators have taken a hit, we are paying. Salary cuts and changes in conditions. If ye want more blood I´d suggest looking elsewhere first.
When people who owe billions head off to Morocco for the weekend in private jets and others go to Mountjoy for not paying their tv license something is very wrong. I´m willing to make sacrifices but not to be the sacrificial lamb. Need to see pain being shared before I´m willing to take some more.

Sand · 17-07-2010 08:40PM

Education is one of the few things we do well in this country,

No, its not. Delusion on the other hand...

Welease · 17-07-2010 08:42PM

20Cent wrote: »

Questioning is fine but uninformed attacks on all sectors are not. Education is one of the few things we do well in this country, educators have taken a hit, we are paying. Salary cuts and changes in conditions. If ye want more blood I´d suggest looking elsewhere first.
When people who owe billions head off to Morocco for the weekend in private jets and others go to Mountjoy for not paying their tv license something is very wrong. I´m willing to make sacrifices but not to be the sacrificial lamb. Need to see pain being shared before I´m willing to take some more.

Those that can justify their wages in an increasingly cost conscious environment have less to fear than those who cannot. However, (imho) there are very few professions in Ireland that appear to be able to justify the premium wages they receive in comparison to our direct competitors.

It's interesting that you believe education is "one of the few things we do well in this country" when global business leader like Craig Barret and others cite our " average education system" and that "we will need a world class system if we are to secure our economic future. "

http://blog.teachnet.ie/?p=1790

southsiderosie · 17-07-2010 09:15PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Many top universities are also public - Berkeley, Virginia and Michigan come to mind. The University of California system is (was) excellent, and really gave regular people a shot at a world-class education that was also affordable. In addition, even "private" institutions like Harvard receive HUGE federal subsidies - directly through funding research projects, and indirectly through preferential tax status, etc. Also, setting university wages is more a function of industrial relations than a school's status as public; there are few public US institutions where wages are set by unions or the government.

Finally, I don't think that Ireland (or the UK for that matter) could have private universities that charged as much for tuition as Harvard and Stanford do - most people in the US can't afford these schools without significant financial aid, which is often met by the universities, who owe much of their huge endowments to private donations. There is not a 'donor culture' in most European universities, which is interesting considering that there are few uni students in Europe who pay for the full cost of their education (or who pay more that basic fees).

TJJP · 17-07-2010 09:56PM

Sand wrote: »

No, its not. Delusion on the other hand...

Yawn.... You might educate yourself by having a look at PISA.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/20/43/44919855.pdf

Ireland 20th out of 56, that's ahead of mid-table on all fronts and a stellar performance given our below average levels of investment.

TJJP · 17-07-2010 10:05PM

Welease wrote: »

Craig Barret and others cite our " average education system" and that "we will need a world class system if we are to secure our economic future. "

http://blog.teachnet.ie/?p=1790

Lol. Find me a country the 'great educationalist' Barrett hasn't slated as average or below. Do a search for the same tired old speech in numerous locations. Craig is a broken record and a long way from his heyday at Intel. Mind you at €15k a pop I'm sure he doesn't mind repeating himself.

Are we going to run a state on the musings of ‘celebrity’ hacks proposing the creation of a European sweat-shop for American multi-nationals?

Some teach because they can and because they genuinely believe in a better future for Ireland.

Welease · 17-07-2010 10:44PM

TJJP wrote: »

Lol. Find me a country the 'great educationalist' Barrett hasn't slated as average or below. Do a search for the same tired old speech in numerous locations. Craig is a broken record and a long way from his heyday at Intel. Mind you at €15k a pop I'm sure he doesn't mind repeating himself.

Are we going to run a state on the musings of ‘celebrity’ hacks proposing the creation of a European sweat-shop for American multi-nationals?

Some teach because they can and because they genuinely believe in a better future for Ireland.

I love that.. celebrity hack..

Ex-Leader of one of the largest, most innovative and successful corporations this planet has ever seen.. and you are?

When major business leaders stop investing in countries and specifically mention education as an issue.. it might be wise to listen... churning out arts graduates to top meaningless educational stats tables doesn't entince high tech industries here.

TJJP · 17-07-2010 11:03PM

Welease wrote: »

I love that.. celebrity hack..

Ex-Leader of one of the largest, most innovative and successful corporations this planet has ever seen.. and you are?

When major business leaders stop investing in countries and specifically mention education as an issue.. it might be wise to listen... churning out arts graduates to top meaningless educational stats tables doesn't entince high tech industries here.

As you've pointed out, he's no longer a major business leader.

In part I agree with you: It might be worth paying attention to such platitudes, but that doesn't mean major business leaders are right. Major business and in the parlance of our times 'the banks' (the bête noir) are out for profit, and they have to be, it’s their raison d'être. Social conscience and the creation of a sustainable nation is all our business though.

What entices high tech industries here? - Eli Lilly and Company, one of the leading pharmaceutical companies in the world, is to establish a European Financial Services Centre in Cork. Kay Flynn, Snr. Finance Director, European Shared Services said: “The decision to locate this important operation in Cork was based on our track record here, the availability of a skilled workforce, language ability and the presence of a strong shared services base here in Ireland. We look forward to continuing our success in Ireland with this new venture. We recognise and appreciate the continued support and partnership of the IDA as we extend Lilly’s footprint in Ireland”.

Oh, and just for the record, I’m a nobody and happy with that.

20Cent · 17-07-2010 11:07PM

Sand wrote: »

No, its not. Delusion on the other hand...

Actually it is.
Begrudgery and put downs, we´re world champions.ç

20Cent · 17-07-2010 11:10PM

'

Welease wrote: »

I love that.. celebrity hack..

Ex-Leader of one of the largest, most innovative and successful corporations this planet has ever seen.. and you are?

When major business leaders stop investing in countries and specifically mention education as an issue.. it might be wise to listen... churning out arts graduates to top meaningless educational stats tables doesn't entince high tech industries here.

So cutbacks and lower salaries are going to improve this how?

Sand · 18-07-2010 12:22AM

Yawn.... You might educate yourself by having a look at PISA.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/20/43/44919855.pdf

Ireland 20th out of 56, that's ahead of mid-table on all fronts and a stellar performance given our below average levels of investment.

And how well paid are our teachers? 20th best paid as well?

AARRRRGH · 18-07-2010 12:27AM

Welease wrote: »

I love that.. celebrity hack..

Ex-Leader of one of the largest, most innovative and successful corporations this planet has ever seen.. and you are?

When major business leaders stop investing in countries and specifically mention education as an issue.. it might be wise to listen... churning out arts graduates to top meaningless educational stats tables doesn't entince high tech industries here.

Oh, you think Ireland only churns out arts graduates? Talk about blinkers.

Welease · 18-07-2010 08:28AM

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Oh, you think Ireland only churns out arts graduates? Talk about blinkers.

Didn't the government also agree we don't have enough of the science and maths graduates that companies are looking for?

Welease · 18-07-2010 08:46AM

20Cent wrote: »

'

So cutbacks and lower salaries are going to improve this how?

Did I say they would? Did the vast increases in wages lead to an equal improvement in education in this country?

As per my previous post, if the wages can stand up to scruitiny in a cost conscious competitive environment then those who receive them have nothing to worry about..

Salary of a Lecturer

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