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Why oh why..the angelus?

1246

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  • #92
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    I've never heard such nonsense as those supporting the angleus or even those stating their indifference. It is a call to prayer and as such should be abolished. The arguments on here are ridiculous. To exagerate my point, I could argue that the Nazi flag is just cotton and ink so why should it bother anyone. Or the Orangemen are just marching, whats the problem its just a march? you can state the obvious and say its just a 60 second programme, but thats got nothing to do with the argument. It's what it symbolises and what its purpose is that is the problem.


  • #93
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    The Angelus discussion is always fascinating. I've never seen an issue where people protest so much that it is "not a big deal" yet get so worked up about the idea of it being taken off the air.

    It is a big deal for those who want to keep it, whether it is because they simply want the angelus on TV, or whether they see it as a representation for a period in the past they preferred and are resentful at the idea that this will be taken off the air because they already feel they have given up to much ground to modern secular Ireland. Or some other reason no one has articulated yet.

    I don't really know why people can't cut the bs and just admit that. Perhaps it is because the main argument for so long to keep the angelus is that it is "not a big deal" so this can be used to make those saying it should be removed seem silly and extreme.

    If people could actually admit that they do actually feel strongly about keeping it, that it is a big deal, then perhaps then we can finally have a proper discussion about the pros and cons about keeping it. At the moment though the arguments are just oxymoronic nonsense (ie it is such a huge irrelevance that doesn't effect anyone so there is no reason to get rid of it)


  • #94
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    What ever happened to "A Prayer At Bedtime"? Is that off the air now (and was there rioting in the streets when it was removed)?


  • #95
    socio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭socio


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Your bull-headed momentum has carried you right by the words of others. I never claimed anything of the sort. But you knew that, right! It's just an underhanded tool you use to make your argument.

    hmm, this is a fairly typical reaction from people who find it hard to make a rational argument. Surprising from a moderator.


  • #96
    socio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭socio


    dvpower wrote: »
    What ever happened to "A Prayer At Bedtime"? Is that off the air now (and was there rioting in the streets when it was removed)?

    Haven't seen it in ages, must of been axed. Guess everyone was switching over...


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  • #97
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭homer911


    The day they remove the Angelus from RTE should be the day they allow unfettered religious advertising. Anyone remember "Power to change"?

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rte-to-run-amended-religious-ads-287942.html


  • #98
    Plowman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


  • #99
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    socio wrote: »
    Haven't seen it in ages, must of been axed. Guess everyone was switching over...

    I think it is on once a month. They were running missing persons ads during it a few years ago I think. Same idea was suggested for the angelus but shot down


  • #100
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Plowman wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    iWitness is a good example of RTE re-shaping their religious broadcasting to be more in line with modern Ireland and their own religious guidelines.

    Pity they can't do the same with the angelus.


  • #101
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    I'm not religious and I don't find the angelus offensive. Like another poster said I find it 'quirky' and kind of traditional (in a nice way.) In recent years they've made it very secular looking anyway by replacing religious imagary with images of nature and candles etc So I just think of it as a nice time to reflect and a break from the usual garish, pushy advertisments. The angelus is one of the few things on tv that are actually there to serve the people, not to push an agenda (not really,) manipulate people or make a profit.

    Leave it alone I say! :p


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  • #102
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Truley wrote: »
    I'm not religious and I don't find the angelus offensive. Like another poster said I find it 'quirky' and kind of traditional (in a nice way.) In recent years they've made it very secular looking anyway by replacing religious imagary with images of nature and candles etc So I just think of it as a nice time to reflect and a break from the usual garish, pushy advertisments. The angelus is one of the few things on tv that are actually there to serve the people, not to push an agenda (not really,) manipulate people or make a profit.

    Leave it alone I say! :p

    unfortunately it is the very manifestation of an agenda, as this thread some what demonstrates.

    Would you object to the Angelus being stopped and absorbed into a wider range of RTE religious broadcasting, similar to Plowman's example of a pray at bed time?


  • #103
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    Truley wrote: »
    I'm not religious and I don't find the angelus offensive. Like another poster said I find it 'quirky' and kind of traditional (in a nice way.) In recent years they've made it very secular looking anyway by replacing religious imagary with images of nature and candles etc So I just think of it as a nice time to reflect and a break from the usual garish, pushy advertisments. The angelus is one of the few things on tv that are actually there to serve the people, not to push an agenda (not really,) manipulate people or make a profit.

    Leave it alone I say! :p
    Unfortunately your interpretation of its function is wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. It's intended as a call to prayer. You're supposed to take out your rosary beads and say a couple of hail marys. Now why should I have to listen to church bells and dodgy actors with gormless looks on their faces pausing for prayer (or just pausing to look at the sky as the revamped version may suggest)?

    It's also a matter of where its placed. It's purposely put on before the 6 O' Clock news to hit the biggest audience. Like I say, a call to prayer at the hight of the day. If its so harmless why not stick it on at a different time and people can choose to watch it rather than being forced to jump back and forth from one channel to another until its over in order to catch the headlines . Its a nusance, an insult to intelligence and it has no place in 21st century society.

    I have the right to catch the news and in particualr the Irish headlines without having religious tripe shoved down my throat.


  • #104
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    I've been following this thread with interest over the past few days and I thought I'd add my two cents worth

    Wickknight/Socio, one of your main arguments seems to be that while people defend the Angelus by saying it's a not a big deal, it suddenly becomes a big deal when proposals to drop it are made. It either is or it isn't a big deal, according to you.

    Well the way I see it, they are two different things:

    1) Having 60 seconds of Angelus bells tolling before the 6:01 evening news each day = no big deal (to many many people, I'd even go as far as to say the majority - both theists and athiests)

    2) Getting rid of the Angelus = a big deal. This is because it would be taking away something from people.

    People don't like it when something is taken away from them, whether they value it highly or not. That is why it suddenly becomes a big deal. Because the people who would like to keep the Angelus know that it doesn't offend most of the other people so why should you get your way?

    Your other main complaint seems to be that no one can give you a good enough reason to keep the Angelus. The truth is, however, that many posters on this thread have given valid reasons: it's part of our tradition/the majority of the population claim to be Catholic so RTE are catering to that/it's unique to Ireland/their Granny likes it... etc etc ... You, however are dismissing these reasons because they're not good enough for you. But of course they're not good enough for you, because you are strongly opposed to the Angelus. While your feelings on the Angelus are valid, I cannot agree with you dismissing other viewpoints in this way.

    For the record, I would like the Angelus to be kept because it gives everyone the opportunity to take a minute out to pause and reflect.


  • #105
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    Wicknight wrote: »
    unfortunately it is the very manifestation of an agenda, as this thread some what demonstrates.

    If it is it's a very very subtle and uninvasive agenda. It reminds already practicing catholics to say a prayer at a particular time (if they wish to do so.) Anyone else would barely know what it means. It doesn't say anything.
    Would you object to the Angelus being stopped and absorbed into a wider range of RTE religious broadcasting, similar to Plowman's example of a pray at bed time?

    No but as far as I know the Angelus is supposed to be said at 12 O'Clock and 6 O'Clock so changing that would sort of defeat the purpose. Also I think part of the reason myself and alot of other non-religious people sort of like it is the tradition of it being broadcast at the same time every day. Human beings like predictability, we like rhythm :p


  • #106
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    20goto10 wrote: »
    Unfortunately your interpretation of its function is wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. It's intended as a call to prayer. You're supposed to take out your rosary beads and say a couple of hail marys. Now why should I have to listen to church bells and dodgy actors with gormless looks on their faces pausing for prayer (or just pausing to look at the sky as the revamped version may suggest)?

    It's also a matter of where its placed. It's purposely put on before the 6 O' Clock news to hit the biggest audience. Like I say, a call to prayer at the hight of the day. If its so harmless why not stick it on at a different time and people can choose to watch it rather than being forced to jump back and forth from one channel to another until its over in order to catch the headlines . Its a nusance, an insult to intelligence and it has no place in 21st century society.

    I have the right to catch the news and in particualr the Irish headlines without having religious tripe shoved down my throat.

    it is basically the difference between religious broadcasting catering to the different religions of the community, and evangelizing a particular religion's practices.

    The first RTE should do, the second they shouldn't any more.

    Does anyone have a good reason why RTE should do the second, other than saying they are already doing it so why not just let them off with it (baring in mind RTE themselves seem more than happy to drop the angelus)


  • #107
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Truley wrote: »
    The angelus is one of the few things on tv that are actually there to serve the people, not to push an agenda (not really,) manipulate people or make a profit.

    Not pushing an agenda?:confused:
    Isn't that precisely what it does?


  • #108
    Whynop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭Whynop


    Wicknight wrote: »
    it is basically the difference between religious broadcasting catering to the different religions of the community, and evangelizing a particular religion's practices.

    The first RTE should do, the second they shouldn't any more.

    Does anyone have a good reason why RTE should do the second, other than saying they are already doing it so why not just let them off with it (baring in mind RTE themselves seem more than happy to drop the angelus)

    What's the difference between "evangelizing" and "broadcasting" in your opinion?


  • #109
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    My "bull headed momentum"? wtf?

    Why are you getting so annoyed? I'm simply trying to figure out your position? You seem to have no problem asking socio a series of questions to establish his position, I'm merely doing the same.

    Allow me to apologise for my harsh words. It was unfair.

    However, I simply don't want to enter into a debate when you feel the need to put words into my mouth. I haven't used the word "significant" before - specifically because no one has defined what significant means. I said as much in a previous post. Yet in your very next reply you go on to represent my position as being fixed to criterion that I had specifically rejected.

    Can you possibly understand why I got miffed at you?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you actually having a position on this issue? You don't think viewing figures should be an issue in deciding the angelus stays on the air? Ok, so what should be the issue?

    You previously asked me if RTE should determine what constitutes "significant demand". I'm not sure, TBH. Dublin Bus would probably close many bus routes if they had their way. Yet because they have a greater responsibility they don't get to make the decision by themselves. As I said earlier, RTE would probably show the biggest TV imports if they were interested only in getting high viewership figures. Again, I think that they have a larger responsibility to society beyond showing the most recent episode of Desperate Housewives.

    My current opinion is that given the nature of the programme - it is relatively free of overt religious imagery, it's one minute long and the production cost, I imagine, is very low - I don't see that 320,000 viewers is an insignificant number. Indeed, I couldn't imagine the Angelus or any long-running one minute programme having ever attracted large figures - certainly not with the explosion of alternative programming in the last 20 years.

    The last census threw up a figure of 86.8% of respondents claiming to be Catholic. So I would imagine that RTE are simply reflecting the reality of the religious demographics of Ireland when they show programmes like the Angelus and Sunday Mass. I say this as a person who is part of the remaining 13.4% of non-Catholics in that census. Simply put: until you can demonstrate why RTE should remove the Angelus then I don't have a problem with it.

    I would imagine that if RTE decided to axe the Angelus the obvious replacement would be additional advertisement - perhaps spread out over the evening. If 320,000 people get something meaningful out of it then I can only imagine that this is better than the zero people who get something out of a Daz ad.

    Out of curiosity what do you propose should replace the Angelus? Nothing? An ecumenical "moments pause"? Something else?


  • #110
    Whynop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭Whynop


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Out of curiosity what do you propose should replace it? Nothing? An ecumenical "moments pause"? Something else?

    How about a daily mystery from one of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett?


  • #111
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Whynop wrote: »
    What's the difference between "evangelizing" and "broadcasting" in your opinion?

    That isn't actually what I said. Everything on RTE is by definition broadcasting.

    There is a difference between religious broadcasting for the information of the population, and evangelizing a particular religion's practices through for example alterations of schedules.

    The Angelus is a good example of this, requiring that the RTE News be universally delayed by 1 minute because everyone is supposed to be saying the angelus prayer, even the 4.1 million Irish people who don't give a fig about the angelus.

    That is a religious practice, it has nothing to do with providing information to the population. This isn't RTE providing information for consumption by the population, which is what they are supposed to be there for. There is no broadcast information in the angelus, in fact that is the point. You aren't supposed to to watch it, you are supposed to be reciting a devotion.


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  • #112
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Can you possibly understand why I got miffed at you?
    It is pretty easy to correct what your position is by actually putting forward your position. Then people don't need to try and infer your position from your some what cryptic responses.

    I won't attempt to confirm your position again, but if you don't actually clarify your position debating further would seem pointless.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You previously asked me if RTE should determine what constitutes "significant demand". I'm not sure, TBH.
    That is fine, but you appreciate that isn't what you actually said, you said that significant demand, determined by RTE or otherwise, shouldn't matter in deciding if the Angelus is displayed. So I hope you can see where I got the idea that you don't think significant demand is irrelevant.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Dublin Bus would probably close many bus routes if they had their way. Yet because they have a greater responsibility they don't get to make the decision by themselves.

    I'm not sure what you mean. Dublin Bus don't close these routes precisely because they have a mandate to serve the public. If Dublin Bus didn't have this mandate it wouldn't be Dublin Bus. Same with RTE.

    You can't divorce RTE from the mandate to provided to them. That is their job, to fulfill that mandate. Have you read the RTE religious broadcast guidelines and do you agree with them?

    http://www.rte.ie/about/pdfs/programmeguidelines2008_eng.pdf
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    until you can demonstrate why RTE should remove the Angelus then I don't have a problem with it.

    I've already given reasons
    • It breaks current RTE guidelines
    • It is promotes the religious practices of one particular religion without providing any actual religious information (which is why it breaks guidelines)
    • It has no educational or informational purpose, which makes it a pointless broadcast in the context of what RTE is supposed to be therefore (entertainment and information)
    • It suggests locally and internationally a connection the RCC and the State that a lot of people would like to demonstrate is long gone
    • It was never meant to stay on the air long term in the first place
    • RTE themselves would like to remove it themselves but can't because of political rows, RTE retaining editorial control over its broadcasting is important.

    Whether you think these are good reasons to remove it I've yet to hear a good reason to keep it other than it already exists which seems purely nostalgic in nature.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I would imagine that if RTE decided to axe the Angelus the obvious replacement would be additional advertisement - perhaps spread out over the evening.

    The replacement would be a six o'clock news that starts a six, like pretty much every other afternoon news show in the western hemisphere.


  • #113
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    I've just had a read of the 'religious beliefs' part of RTÉ's programming guidelines as provided in Wicknight's link above, and I can see nothing in it to indicate that broadcasting the Angelus is in contravention of these.


    Religious Beliefs
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
    RTÉ, as part of its commitment to public service broadcasting, reflects in its general output on radio, television, web and print publishing the cultural and spiritual values of the people of Ireland. As many people regard their religious faiths as central to their lives it is important that the audience can find on RTÉ programmes that reflect the significance of religion in Ireland today. RTÉ will continue to broadcast religious services on both radio and television and will also provide programming dealing with religious and spiritual topics on a regular basis. The editorial principles underlying that coverage include:
    [/FONT]
    1. Respect for all religious views
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
    The fundamental right to hold religious views and to practise religion will be respected. The important place religion holds in the life of the community will be celebrated and acknowledged. RTÉ will contribute towards the audience’s understanding of international issues by providing information on and analysis of the role of world religions.
    [/FONT]
    2. Tolerance of the diversity of beliefs people hold
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
    RTÉ in its output will reflect the faiths traditionally found in Ireland. RTÉ should also as appropriate cover the religions of new groups arriving in Ireland and new faiths as they emerge. RTÉ will also acknowledge in its programming people who are agnostic or atheistic.
    [/FONT]
    3. Avoidance of the giving of offence to those who hold religious views
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
    This involves sensitivity towards people’s beliefs, towards religious festivals and feast days, towards icons and words associated with religious beliefs, towards liturgical practices and rituals and towards historically significant events in the histories of particular religions. The denigration of religious beliefs and the mockery of faith are not permitted. It is however, acceptable to examine critically religious beliefs, institutions and experiences in factual programmes, dramas and other genres of output.
    [/FONT]
    Coverage of Religious Issues outside of Religious Programming

    As religion is central to so many people’s lives it is inevitably a subject that is going to receive attention in a variety of programme genres, such as documentary, drama and comedy. It is important to take into account in both scripting and production that offence may be given to people with deeply held religious views. A balance has to be struck between avoiding giving offence and freedom of expression. Gratuitous offence must at all times be avoided. Programme-makers must be alert to these sensitivities. Where there is a possibility of offending a religious tradition, producers should advise their editorial management in good time to ensure that the matter receives full and due consideration. If a programme is likely to offend some viewers, the transmission time may need to be considered. Some members of the public are concerned to protect younger people from religious controversy and are less likely to be offended if a programme is broadcast after the watershed on television or when younger listeners are likely to be members of the audience on radio. Advance warning may need to be given to members of the audience. An opportunity to reply may be required.
    In fact, section 2 specifically states that
    RTÉ in its output will reflect the faiths traditionally found in Ireland


    Catholicism is the main faith traditionally found in Ireland and thus RTE are not going against their own guidelines.


  • #114
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    I've just had a read of the 'religious beliefs' part of RTÉ's programming guidelines as provided in Wicknight's link above, and I can see nothing in it to indicate that broadcasting the Angelus is in contravention of these.

    Next time read the whole thing
    The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has published a Public Service Broadcasting Charter which describes what is expected from RTÉ as the national public service broadcaster. The full document is available at (www.dcmnr.gov.ie). The Charter defines RTÉ’s Public Service remit
    ...
    RTÉ shall, at all times, strive to reflect fairly and equally the regional, cultural and political diversity of Ireland and its peoples.

    No editorial or programming bias shall be shown in terms of gender, age, disability, race, sexual orientation, religion or membership of a minority community.
    ...

    The Angelus is a form of programming bias, which is understandable given that it was started a direct request from the Catholic Church to RTE back in the 1950s before any of these documents and mandate existed. But it is time to get rid of it.

    No one here as far as I can tell is against religious broadcasting within RTE's own guidelines and mandate.


  • #115
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is fine, but you appreciate that isn't what you actually said, you said that significant demand, determined by RTE or otherwise, shouldn't matter in deciding if the Angelus is displayed. So I hope you can see where I got the idea that you don't think significant demand is irrelevant.

    Again, I think you misunderstand me. I said "significant" shouldn't enter into it because it was not a word I used - something we have discussed before, remember ;). I also said that RTE have an obligation beyond simply pulling in the most viewers possible. And I contested the idea that 320,000 viewers is an insignificant number.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean. Dublin Bus don't close these routes precisely because they have a mandate to serve the public. If Dublin Bus didn't have this mandate it wouldn't be Dublin Bus. Same with RTE.

    Yes, that is my point. RTE are there to serve the wider public need.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    [*]It breaks current RTE guidelines
    [*]It is promotes the religious practices of one particular religion without providing any actual religious information (which is why it breaks guidelines)

    Can you point the above breaches out to me?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It has no educational or informational purpose, which makes it a pointless broadcast in the context of what RTE is supposed to be therefore (entertainment and information)

    RTE aren't simply there to provide entertainment and information. For example, their programming standards document says the following, "RTÉ must provide a comprehensive range of programmes in the Irish and English languages that reflect the cultural diversity of the whole island of Ireland and include…programmes that entertain, inform and educate, provide coverage of sporting, religious and cultural activities and cater for the expectations of the community generally as well as members of the community with special or minority interests, and which, in every case respect human dignity."
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It suggests locally and internationally a connection the RCC and the State that a lot of people would like to demonstrate is long gone

    Does it? I would have thought that it reflects the continued importance the RCC has in Ireland.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It was never meant to stay on the air long term in the first place

    What is the significance of this?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    RTE themselves would like to remove it themselves but can't because of political rows, RTE retaining editorial control over its broadcasting is important.

    I'm sure that RTE would like to do a lot of things, but as we have already mentioned they have a mandate. Do you have sources for your claim, btw?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    The replacement would be a six o'clock news that starts a six, like pretty much every other afternoon news show in the western hemisphere.

    That seems fair enough. But I wonder would you object to the Angelus being replaced by something that encourages theistic people to reflect upon matters in their life?

    For me to be convinced that the Angelus should go I would think that two things would have to be shown to me. Firstly, as already stated, breach of charter. Secondly, why a minority opinion - and I would imagine that the people like yourself and the OP who are passionately opposed to the Angelus is small - should take primacy over the majority.


  • #116
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Again, I think you misunderstand me. I said "significant" shouldn't enter into it because it was not a word I used - something we have discussed before, remember ;). I also said that RTE have an obligation beyond simply pulling in the most viewers possible. And I contested the idea that 320,000 viewers is an insignificant number.
    Fair enough. I'm still not sure what you point is though I accept I don't understand it and thus wasn't presenting it properly
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Can you point the above breaches out to me?
    See this post above
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    For example, their programming standards document says the following, "RTÉ must provide a comprehensive range of programmes in the Irish and English languages that reflect the cultural diversity of the whole island of Ireland and include…programmes that entertain, inform and educate, provide coverage of sporting, religious and cultural activities and cater for the expectations of the community generally as well as members of the community with special or minority interests, and which, in every case respect human dignity."

    All of what is listed there falls mostly into entertain educate or inform.

    Where in that do you think the Angelus broadcast falls? It isn't to entertain, it isn't to inform or to education. It isn't coverage of a sporting, religious or cultural event?

    It is, if you think about it, some what a bizarre opposite to all of this. It is a cease in broadcasting because, due to a particular religious doctrine, you aren't actually supposed to be watching TV at this time, you are supposed to be reciting a religious devotion.

    Where is it in the RTE broadcasting guidelines is the mandate to dictate to the Irish people when they are or aren't supposed to be watching TV?
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Does it? I would have thought that it reflects the continued importance the RCC has in Ireland.

    But the State is not supposed to consider the RCC more important than any other religion, even if they are in the majority.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    What is the significance of this?
    Even those who started it didn't think we needed it long term. So the idea that Catholics require this for religious practice is invalid.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I'm sure that RTE would like to do a lot of things, but as we have already mentioned they have a mandate.

    I wish you would stop saying that. RTE have no desire to work against their mandate, and when I say they wish to do this I mean in line with their own mandate.

    This is what I take from discussions with people from RTE.

    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    That seems fair enough. But I wonder would you object to the Angelus being replaced by something that encourages theistic people to reflect upon matters in their life?

    I'm not sure what you mean. It is not really RTE's place to try and encourage people to do things with regard to religion or ideology. RTE's mandate is to entertain educate and inform from a neutral position. I've no problem with any RTE religious broadcasts that fall into this mandate, such as the covering of important religious services or documentaries on religious topics.

    Put it this way, would you feel uncomfortable if RTE aired a program to encourage people to reflect upon how great capitalism is, rather than say simply a documentary on the history of capitalism.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    For me to be convinced that the Angelus should go I would think that two things would have to be shown to me. Firstly, as already stated, breach of charter. Secondly, why a minority opinion - and I would imagine that the people like yourself and the OP who are passionately opposed to the Angelus is small - should take primacy over the majority.

    The second one is irrelevant given the first. The Angelus is already a breach of RTE's guidelines which come from the democratically elected government. It does not fall into their mandate and breaks their non-bias position.

    So the question becomes why should RTE ignore their mandate simply because of a small pocket of political pressure.

    Does anyone have a reason yet?


  • #117
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,774 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I am not Catholic, nor anything else but I have no problem with the Angelus. At best its a moment of reflection, at worst its a warning that the news is going to be on, you can tell the kids to come home when they hear the Angelus. Also I have heard a couple of tourists say that they are intrigued by it, it adds a bit of that 'olde Ireland' feel that they come looking for.


  • #118
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not pushing an agenda?:confused:
    Isn't that precisely what it does?

    Like anything in the media it has an agenda. Whether it's 'pushing' is subjective. I don't think it does.


  • #119
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    All of what is listed there falls mostly into entertain educate or inform.

    Well, that certainly is debatable. I note that you have expanded your list to now include educate.
    Where in that do you think the Angelus broadcast falls? It isn't to entertain, it isn't to inform or to education. It isn't coverage of a sporting, religious or cultural event?

    I don't agree that RTE only deals in the three areas you have suggested. But if you want an answer, I would imagine that RTE is providing coverage of religious activities.

    "RTÉ will continue to broadcast religious services on both radio and television and will also provide programming dealing with religious and spiritual topics on a regular basis."
    It is, if you think about it, some what a bizarre opposite to all of this. It is a cease in broadcasting because, due to a particular religious doctrine, you aren't actually supposed to be watching TV at this time, you are supposed to be reciting a religious devotion.

    Where is it in the RTE broadcasting guidelines is the mandate to dictate to the Irish people when they are or aren't supposed to be watching TV?

    I'm not following you.
    But the State is not supposed to consider the RCC more important than any other religion, even if they are in the majority.

    RCC isn't a religion, it's a denomination. Aside from that, the State does give precedence to Christianity (as I've already pointed out by quoting the opening lines of the constitution) and it also recognises the importance of religion in general.
    Even those who started it didn't think we needed it long term. So the idea that Catholics require this for religious practice is invalid.

    But I've not claimed that it is required. I was simply looking for reasons as to why it should be axed. This isn't one of them, as far as I can see.
    I wish you would stop saying that. RTE have no desire to work against their mandate, and when I say they wish to do this I mean in line with their own mandate.

    How can you categorically say that RTE - like it is a single-minded entity - has no desire to work against its mandate. That would really only be true if RTE set the mandate itself. Anyway, aren't you are contending that they are in breach by showing the Angelus. Or is that all down to political pressure?
    This is what I take from discussions with people from RTE.

    Discussions! Sounds official.
    I'm not sure what you mean. It is not really RTE's place to try and encourage people to do things with regard to religion or ideology. RTE's mandate is to entertain educate and inform from a neutral position. I've no problem with any RTE religious broadcasts that fall into this mandate, such as the covering of important religious services or documentaries on religious topics.

    Again, though you wish to reduce the role of RTE into the areas of entertainment, education and information, I don't agree that it is that easy. To be honest, I prefer RTE's own words on the matter.
    Put it this way, would you feel uncomfortable if RTE aired a program to encourage people to reflect upon how great capitalism is, rather than say simply a documentary on the history of capitalism.

    I'm not sure that the analogy is relevant. The Angelus isn't telling people how great RCism is. Rather, it is providing a service for people already convinced of the truth as detailed by the RC church. That I happen to disagree with a great deal of these teaching doesn't mean I automatically take the hump when those bells start ringing.
    The second one is irrelevant given the first. The Angelus is already a breach of RTE's guidelines which come from the democratically elected government. It does not fall into their mandate and breaks their non-bias position.

    Well, it might well be. And this, I feel, is your strongest argument. But I wonder what the definition of bias is? From my quick read of their standards, one could look at the Angelus as bias or you could look at it as a programme that reflects the Catholic values of the majority of the populace (86.8%), which is part of RTE's role as providing public service broadcasting.


  • #120
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Well said Fanny.

    I think that the bias Wicknight sees in it is that it is a 'call' to prayer as opposed to educational etc. etc. and perhaps sees political motivation behind it? and of course the alternative agenda is to seperate State and Church ( Which I actually think would be good for both in some ways...) Not taking God out of the Constitution now..lol...that would have to be put to referendum, but a distancing of state and RCC church I think would benefit both...

    The way I see it, is not so much 'political', but providing a moments reflection that has been toned down to be across the religious community in Ireland...Understandably, some people won't like that, and perhaps won't like the roots of it, it being an RCC practice to pray at those times....however, suprisingly and rather pleasantly unexpected on my part, it seems the vast majority who aren't religious don't seem to mind it too much...

    Truth be told, I wouldn't like to see it go, simply because it 'does' serve as a small reminder for those of faith to reflect for a moment, and also I think of some of the more aging population in Ireland in nursing homes, hospitals, living alone and unable to get out etc. etc. and all the changes they've seen in the last decade, and to be honest I'd feel like a right **** taking it off the airwaves on them especially...because really it's not 'political' as far as I can see...

    It may not be broadcast in time, but for now it serves the population who want it to stay....

    Sorry, but it does..


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  • #121
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    The last census threw up a figure of 86.8% of respondents claiming to be Catholic. So I would imagine that RTE are simply reflecting the reality of the religious demographics of Ireland when they show programmes like the Angelus and Sunday Mass.
    That's exactly the problem. Our state broadcaster is catering for the catholic church. There should be separation of state and church. People arguing that this would be catering to atheists are just showing their ignorance. Atheism is not an organisation or social group. It is simply a lack of belief in religion. Catholics are still free to have religious programmes but I would suggest they get their own channel for it and that RTE should stop broadcasting Catholic tripe and leave us in peace to watch the news. I also think they need to drop the religious aspect of their journalism. Stuff like interviewing church goers and preists as if it has any relevance to the subject.

    btw, I know many catholics who hate the angelus and in fact who hate the Catholic church. But they still call themselves Catholic and believe in God. Your 86.8% figure is not an accurate reflection of our demographics.


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