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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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Comments

  • #452
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In order to save me scrolling back through trying to locate it would you be good enough to repeat it (still no takers on mine I see)

    What is your price on loyalty?

    If NI was made to pay for itself, would you still want the Union?


  • #453
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    But you are only willing to follow Westminster instructions when it suits?

    and what type of instructions would i not follow?


  • #454
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    dan719 wrote: »
    How many of the pro UI posters on this thread are willing to pay for the north in the form of higher taxes and the like? Add an extra five billion on to our Budget deficit for starters. Plus probable increases in military and police spending, plus god knows what else. Look at the German experience of reunification.

    It is amazing, isn't in. :rolleyes:
    There will be a reunification process, I fully expect both the EU and Britain to contribute for a number of years.


  • #455
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dan719 wrote: »
    How many of the pro UI posters on this thread are willing to pay for the north in the form of higher taxes and the like? Add an extra five billion on to our Budget deficit for starters. Plus probable increases in military and police spending, plus god knows what else. Look at the German experience of reunification.

    It is amazing, isn't in. :rolleyes:

    I agree they just want it for culture thats all.


  • #456
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    dan719 wrote: »
    How many of the pro UI posters on this thread are willing to pay for the north in the form of higher taxes and the like? Add an extra five billion on to our Budget deficit for starters. Plus probable increases in military and police spending, plus god knows what else. Look at the German experience of reunification.

    It is amazing, isn't in. :rolleyes:

    Well, the Germans accepted East Germany back as they knew money was no object to a United Germany.


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  • #457
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    There will be a reunification process, I fully expect both the EU and Britain to contribute for a number of years.

    Stop going on like you run the country you don't know what way it would work if it was to happen, so don't go around saying things that you don't know will happen.


  • #458
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    and what type of instructions would i not follow?
    If they told you to join a UI. For example.


    Or if we take a past example, Sunningdale. There was a chance for a type of GFA 30 years earlier.


  • #459
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    There will be a reunification process, I fully expect both the EU and Britain to contribute for a number of years.

    That's not what I asked. Gurramok criticises unionists for not being willing to pay for the union, surely it would be hypocritical of the nationalists to have the hand out for reunification?

    Also, LOL @ the idea of Britain paying a penny once the North is taken off their hands. What benefit would it be to them?


  • #460
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    If they told you to join a UI. For example.


    Or if we take a past example, Sunningdale. There was a chance for a type of GFA 30 years earlier.

    Well thats what being a unionist is all about!;) and i'm sure there are some parts of being a republican like that too.


  • #461
    trapsagenius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭trapsagenius


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    If its such a big issue for them yes

    Not much point being a Unionist if theres no Union now is there

    I don't really think they should have to though.I would personally welcome the unionists into the UI when it comes around, to show them that they have nothing to fear.

    Mussolini, I like your idea of a Federal Republic btw.


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  • #462
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    Northern Ireland is not in the country of ireland we are in the United Kingdom full stop. But!, we are in the island of ireland.

    I was responding to the suggestion by Mike that residents of Northern Ireland should leave to live in a republic. I was asking why people should have to leave their own country ie. Northern Ireland?


  • #463
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    I don't really think they should have to though.I would personally welcome the unionists into the UI when it comes around, to show them that they have nothing to fear.

    Mussolini, I like your idea of a Federal Republic btw.

    For the thousandth time we don't want a union, its been in our blood for years we aren't going to change it now.


  • #464
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    I don't really think they should have to though.I would personally welcome the unionists into the UI when it comes around, to show them that they have nothing to fear.

    Mussolini, I like your idea of a Federal Republic btw.
    Yes, I would do so too.


    I suggest looking up "Éire Nua"or what I posted in RaN. I think it is the way to go.


  • #465
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    karma_ wrote: »
    I was responding to the suggestion by Mike that residents of Northern Ireland should leave to live in a republic. I was asking why people should have to leave their own country ie. Northern Ireland?

    Because if theres no union then you can't be a unionist, how many times do i have to say that to people on here!


  • #466
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    gurramok wrote: »
    Well, the Germans accepted East Germany back as they knew money was no object to a United Germany.

    You didn't answer my question. Would you be willing to pay for a united Ireland in the form of higher taxes and/or reduced public spending in the South?

    And the Germans accepted the east back for the same reason people want a UI. That is, a sense of historical ties and a need to have some deep seated desire sated. In Ireland, what with our love affair with the land, it's probably worse. I am not attempting to disparage pro UI supporters, simply stating that no-one has given me a reason, economic or other, that isn't simply an appeal to emotion rather than reason. Such an argument is weakened by the historical fact that Ireland was only ever unified once, and that was under British rule.


  • #467
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dan719 wrote: »
    You didn't answer my question. Would you be willing to pay for a united Ireland in the form of higher taxes and/or reduced public spending in the South?

    And the Germans accepted the east back for the same reason people want a UI. That is, a sense of historical ties and a need to have some deep seated desire sated. In Ireland, what with our love affair with the land, it's probably worse. I am not attempting to disparage pro UI supporters, simply stating that no-one has given me a reason, economic or other, that isn't simply an appeal to emotion rather than reason. Such an argument is weakened by the historical fact that Ireland was only ever unified once, and that was under British rule.

    Plus i don't think unionists will be treated fairly.


  • #468
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    The German situation isint as clear cut as described above Support for unification while widespread wasnt universal on either side while some who supported it at the time later wondered if it had been rushed or should have taken place at all.

    Unification caused considerable financial pain on both sides of the former border which is still been felt to this day.

    Twenty years on (half the lifetime of the former GDR) there are still gaps between living standards and culturally/psychologically Germans still talk of "the wall in peoples heads" Nostalgia for the GDR (and support for the successors of the SED in the East) is growing.
    owenc wrote: »
    Yea but it will work well this time as they will split it up according to the most unionist constuencies i mean north antrim is like 70% unionist so there will be barely any trouble there for example.

    Its unfortunate that the proposed redrawing of the border in the 1920's was never agreed but at this stage in the game repartition is not going to happen. Its all or nothing.

    Nationalists would argue that it amounted to a moving of the goalposts and this time theyd have a point.
    karma_ wrote: »
    I was responding to the suggestion by Mike that residents of Northern Ireland should leave to live in a republic. I was asking why people should have to leave their own country ie. Northern Ireland?

    I think I answered that point

    Given that if the United Ireland youre proposing were to be established you would be putting Unionists in the same position It seems pretty reasonable does it not ?
    gurramok wrote: »
    If NI was made to pay for itself, would you still want the Union?
    Perhaps ? Perhaps not ? Were really getting into hypotheticals now though since no Government has ever proposed such a thing and is not likely to in the foreseeable future.

    Should each of the counties/regions/provinces of the Republic or the UK mainland be expected to be entirely self financing ?

    All other considerations being equal
    Would Nationalists change their minds if it could be shown that they would personally be financially better off remaining in the UK ?
    Would Unionists change their minds if it could be shown that they (somehow) would personally be financially better off joining a United Ireland ?

    The answer in both cases is some would, some wouldnt and some would say "it depends"


  • #469
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    Because if theres no union then you can't be a unionist, how many times do i have to say that!

    That's just a label owen. I'm sure there are still folk who live in Ireland (The Republic of) who regret that Ireland even gained Independence from Britain. Should Ireland ever be unified, then of course there will be a portion of teh residents who would not be happy with it.


  • #470
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Plus i don't think unionists will be treated fairly.
    If a federal republic goes ahead then you need not worry about that.


    And I dont think unionists would be treated unfairly.


  • #471
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Its unfortunate that the proposed redrawing of the border in the 1920's was never agreed but at this stage in the game repartition is not going to happen. Its all or nothing.

    Nationalists would argue that it amounted to a moving of the goalposts and this time theyd have a point.
    Well what the boundary commission recommended was stupid! One of the few times both sides were in total agreement.


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  • #472
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Its unfortunate that the proposed redrawing of the border in the 1920's was never agreed but at this stage in the game repartition is not going to happen. Its all or nothing.

    Nationalists would argue that it amounted to a moving of the goalposts and this time theyd have a point.

    Well i think thats unfair on unionists if that gets the go ahead.


  • #473
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Is a federal republic not a very large compromise?

    Only in the "do you want to be hanged or to be shot" sense.

    In terms of the "constitutional question", what nationalists want and what unionists want are simply irreconcilable; no compromise is possible. The best thing one can do is to get the question taken off the table, and get on with establishing a modus vivendi so that something like normal politics might happen. That is what the GFA has achieved (for a generous interpretation of "normal").

    There are people on both sides of the divide in the north who put a lot of effort into skirmishing -- things like trying to upgrade or downgrade the cross-border arrangements. That sort of stuff is not merely petty: it is damaging.


  • #474
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    If a federal republic goes ahead then you need not worry about that.


    And I dont think unionists would be treated unfairly.

    Well i do the nationalists keep bringing up the past so will never let unionists get anything.


  • #475
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    owenc wrote: »
    Plus i don't think unionists will be treated fairly.

    I think you would. That means that you would get the same bad deal that everybody else gets.


  • #476
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Extremely generous.

    I do not think it is impossible.


  • #477
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    karma_ wrote: »
    That's just a label owen. I'm sure there are still folk who live in Ireland (The Republic of) who regret that Ireland even gained Independence from Britain. Should Ireland ever be unified, then of course there will be a portion of teh residents who would not be happy with it.

    Well whatever thats what i believe.


  • #478
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Well i do the nationalists keep bringing up the past so will never let unionists get anything.
    It cannot be argued that nationalists are the only ones who bring up the past. I certainly would not discriminate against unionist. For the most part nationalists know what that is like and will not be so keen to inflict it on another.


  • #479
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    dan719 wrote: »
    You didn't answer my question. Would you be willing to pay for a united Ireland in the form of higher taxes and/or reduced public spending in the South?

    Yes. Would you ?

    We are not highly taxed directly you know.


  • #480
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes. Would you ?

    We are not highly taxed directly you know.
    I would too, so would many others if it meant a solution to "The Ulster Problem"


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  • #481
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    It cannot be argued that nationalists are the only ones who bring up the past. I certainly would not discriminate against unionist. For the most part nationalists know what that is like and will not be so keen to inflict it on another.

    You are either extremely naive, or are being purposely obtuse. Look at the experience of whites in post apartheid South Africa. To claim that people who have been discriminated against are less likely to discriminate is ludicrous in the extreme.

    @ Gurramok

    No I wouldn't, and in Ireland it is misleading to look at the direct levels of taxation as a measure of the tax burden, as they are kept artificially low by the use of so called stealth taxes.

    I'd rather my tax Euro be put towards funding hospitals, schools and the like, rather than satisfying the wet dreams of the likes of SF and bringing the Republic into a costly, protracted and almost certainly deadly struggle to maintain power in the six counties.


This discussion has been closed.
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