200kms of road reclassified motorway except Athlone bypass

glineli · 17-07-2009 9:29am

tech2 wrote: »

Would you let me know when some M18 signs go up as I wont be around to check until next week? Some other blue signs have gone up already on other routes

Was on the N18 last night, no new signs. will keep an eye out over the weekend and once i see anything i will let you know.

veryangryman · 17-07-2009 9:32am

BluntGuy wrote: »

The only mandantory differences are blue signs, solid hard shoulder and emergency telephones.

Emergency Telephones? What are they? M6/M8 anyone?

God bless mobiles is all ill say

17-07-2009 10:03am

veryangryman wrote: »

Emergency Telephones? What are they? M6/M8 anyone?

God bless mobiles is all ill say

I suppose the only advantage the emergency phones have now is that you have a direct line to the relevant services, with a mobile it's "who do you call?" and it ain't ghostbusters.

Maybe there should be small signs along the hard shoulder with "useful numbers", every 500m or so.

L1011 · 17-07-2009 7:39pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Emergency Telephones? What are they? M6/M8 anyone?

God bless mobiles is all ill say

The NRA is at the early stages of procuring phones for all the redesignated stretches; I know someone who's company supplies something needed for them.

Zoney · 17-07-2009 9:34pm

Also with the emergency phone they know where you are. Plus mobiles can have a flat battery, get lost/left at home, congested network or no signal, etc. etc.

The emergency phones are fairly failsafe afaik.

It's not like regular phonebooths - the advent of mobile phones does not make motorway emergency phones redundant (although it may make it easier for authorities to give it the chop if they can't be bothered paying for the maintanance).

BluntGuy · 17-07-2009 9:37pm

MYOB wrote: »

The NRA is at the early stages of procuring phones for all the redesignated stretches; I know someone who's company supplies something needed for them.

Any idea when this'll be done?

icdg · 18-07-2009 12:00pm

No new signs at the Dublin end of the Clonee Bypass last I saw. It is a fairly short strech (less than 1.5km) already open which is being redesignated so don't know if they're waiting for the main M3?

The only redesignated scheme the last time that got no new signs was the Nenagh Bypass, but that's a building site anyway.

Zoney · 18-07-2009 1:41pm

icdg wrote: »

No new signs at the Dublin end of the Clonee Bypass last I saw. It is a fairly short strech (less than 1.5km) already open which is being redesignated so don't know if they're waiting for the main M3?

The only redesignated scheme the last time that got no new signs was the Nenagh Bypass, but that's a building site anyway.

There were blue 3/2/1 markers on the Nenagh Bypass at the new Thurles Road junction before the bypass was redesignated.

mackerski · 18-07-2009 1:59pm

KevR wrote: »

Actually, how/when will OpenStreetMap be updated for the sections which are already open?

I presume it won't happen until August 28th anyway.

This will depend. The rule of thumb on OSM is "map what's on the ground". So, to take the example of the M2, it seems to have start/end restrictions signs up and all local road signs seem to refer to M2 instead of N2. I'm thinking of surveying the extent of signage completion, but if all the ground-based hints say M2 I'll probably change the map based on that, regardless of the actual legal status. The 120 limit is already in place, so it's a reasonable approach.

OSM already has the under-construction sections referred to marked as motorways under construction since their redesignation was a sure thing. Any sections not already up-classified on OSM based on the "on-the-ground" rule by 28th August will then be retagged as motorway on that date.

mackerski · 18-07-2009 2:02pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The N18 from Shannon to Limerick (East of Bunratty anyway) is nowhere near motorway standard. The curves for a start make the Athlone bypass look like an Autobahn.

The Athlone Bypass does look like an Autobahn. In many ways, it's more typical of a German Autobahn then most of our motorways.

marmurr1916 · 18-07-2009 3:27pm

The Athlone Bypass does look like an Autobahn. In many ways, it's more typical of a German Autobahn then most of our motorways.

One thing I remember about German autobahns is the very short slip-roads at junctions.

You have to be prepared to slow down very quickly when coming off the autobahn and be prepared to speed up (and spot a gap in traffic) very quickly when joining.

A quick calculation (not 100% accurate) shows that we'll have about 1135 kms (ca. 710 miles) of motorway and dual-carriageway as part of national primary routes when all current roads under construction are completed.

The existing national primary route network is about 2,740 kms (ca. 1,700 miles) in total.

By the end of 2010 about 41.5% of this network will be either motorway or dual-carriageway, with only a very small amount (about 15kms?) of 2+2 (Type 2 Dual-Carriageway in NRA jargon) as part of that percentage.

Proposed projects not yet under construction will eventually add another couple of hundred kms to the network.

Schemes like the M20, Gort-Tuam M18/M17, schemes on the N11/N25, the Mullingar-Longford HQDC/motorway and the Dublin Outer Orbital Route will bring that percentage up to over 50% when/if they're built.

Not bad when you compare the network to how it was about 20 years ago.

L1011 · 18-07-2009 6:46pm

Mullingar-Longford will be 2+2 not HQDC I thought? Its partially online so can never be motorway either way.

marmurr1916 · 25-07-2009 6:04pm

MYOB wrote: »

Mullingar-Longford will be 2+2 not HQDC I thought? Its partially online so can never be motorway either way.

I thought it was going to be HQDC, could be wrong though.

Some scans of Collins 2010 road map of Ireland (a small scale map):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35945888@N04/3754735749/sizes/l/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35945888@N04/3755507390/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Lots of nice blue lines there, with more to come in the 2011 edition once it's updated to include redesignated sections of dual-carriageway and completed motorways.

Chris_533976 · 25-07-2009 6:21pm

I see Nenagh to Limerick has opened and a new town called JOHN F KENNEDY PARK has appeared south of New Ross

marmurr1916 · 25-07-2009 6:33pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I see Nenagh to Limerick has opened and a new town called JOHN F KENNEDY PARK has appeared south of New Ross

Showing the Limerick to Nenagh section of the M7 as already open is one of two big errors on the map, the other is not showing the Ennis - Gort section of the M18 as being under construction.

At the time the map must have been printed, it would probably have been officially HQDC under construction.

It also shows the Galway-Athlone section of the M6 as being dual-carriageway under construction rather than as motorway, although it may have gone to print before the official redesignation took effect.

The JFK Park is correctly shown on the map: it's represented as a small green-shaded area to the south of New Ross.

I' ve never seen Ballycroy National Park in Co. Mayo on a map before, didn't even know it existed until today!

These are handy for comparing Ireland with Britain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35945888@N04/3754869507/?rotated=1&cb=1248544308843

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35945888@N04/3754879465/sizes/l/

Clareman · 29-07-2009 8:55am

There was a sign on the N18 this morning for the M18, and it was Blue, woke me up

In other words, the Ennis to Limerick road will be a motorway soon, I think they are waiting for the roadworks for the tunnel near the Radisson to be complete before completing the transisition

marinbike · 11-08-2009 5:22pm

Zoney wrote: »

I think you may be thinking of the old hurler's Cross junction (before the GSJ) and old Shannon junction.

There is only one median gap as such remaining on the N18, at the Radisson hotel on the way into Limerick (the other U-turn on the way into Limerick replaced by a roundabout for Coonagh Cross Tesco). In any case that stretch of DC is a moot point due to the new N7 bypass ending at a point just outside the Radisson crossover (which I think is also to be Rbout once the bypass is done). It's entirely possible the N18 will be reclassified as R road from the N7 bypass junction into town.

The N18 has *no* median crossings any longer between Radisson/new N7 junction, and the end of the DC north of Ennis.

As such, median crossings is not a valid reason. The main valid reason for N18 not being motorway between N7 junction and at least Bunratty is that there are some private accesses (i.e. even some driveways) for all the fact that the median is unbroken. Another fairly major reason is the lack of straightforward alternative route to Bunratty from either Shannon or Limerick directions.

The Shannon-Limerick Dual Carraigeway is 30 years old. It was officially opened in 1979. Thats why theres so many house entrances and cross-overs on it.

A small problem with the new Dual Carraigeways is that the medians are too narrow. Fair enough there is a wall of concrete running along them but the old dual carraigeways had much wider medians.

Chris_533976 · 11-08-2009 5:25pm

Costs a lot more in land take though, and needs more maintenance than the concrete barriers.

So concrete is best, as steel and wire barriers dont get maintained properly in any case.

Carawaystick · 11-08-2009 9:10pm

marinbike wrote: »

A small problem with the new Dual Carraigeways is that the medians are too narrow. Fair enough there is a wall of concrete running along them but the old dual carraigeways had much wider medians.

Explain why you think this is a problem?

Other than making widening the road easier?

marinbike · 12-08-2009 5:40pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Explain why you think this is a problem?

Other than making widening the road easier?

Theres several reasons for it:

Its easier to utilize a wide median dual carraigeway for future lane additions. The Naas Road is a good example. This DC was built a good few yrs ago but since it had a wide median, it allowed them to utilize it for the new lanes rather than dismantling bridges and realigning on-ramps.

Wide Median Dual Carraigeways are better because at night time, you can put your full lights on without fear of blinding oncoming cars (The wide space allows for this). Also, it makes more sense to have wide roads since a lack of space is not a problem here in ireland. The wide median Dual Carraigeways should have a tar-macked median instead of the grass; this facilitates less maintenance.

The wide median is more driver friendly.

marinbike · 12-08-2009 5:45pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Costs a lot more in land take though, and needs more maintenance than the concrete barriers.

So concrete is best, as steel and wire barriers dont get maintained properly in any case.

It doesn't when you offset the savings made for future lane additions. It saves you from the enormous costs involved in dismantling and widening bridges/overpasses as well as having to excvate new on-ramps. Having a wide median is much cheaper to add extra lanes

serfboard · 12-08-2009 6:07pm

marinbike wrote: »

Its easier to utilize a wide median dual carraigeway for future lane additions. The Naas Road is a good example. This DC was built a good few yrs ago but since it had a wide median, it allowed them to utilize it for the new lanes rather than dismantling bridges and realigning on-ramps.

Yes, wide median is better for upgrades and it was far-seeing (or maybe lucky?) to have built it as such, but when you consider that the Naas DC feeds 3 inter-urban motorways (M7/M8/M9) it was maybe not all that brilliant to extrapolate future road needs.

The other splits of note in the country are the M1/M2 at Ardee, and the M4/M6 at Kinnegad.

Outside of those, and on parts of routes not near the cities, is wide median really necessary in terms of future road widening? I don't think so.

Chris_533976 · 12-08-2009 6:58pm

Yes, some of the concrete stuff should be wide median (M7/M8 scheme, limerick SRR II). But realistically stuff like Culahill - Cashel of the M8 or the middle bits of the M9 are way under travelled for a motorway and you'd need a country of like 10 million population to warrent upgrades (crappy terminuses notwithstanding

)

Carawaystick · 12-08-2009 9:11pm

marinbike wrote: »

Theres several reasons for it:

Its easier to utilize a wide median dual carraigeway for future lane additions. The Naas Road is a good example. This DC was built a good few yrs ago but since it had a wide median, it allowed them to utilize it for the new lanes rather than dismantling bridges and realigning on-ramps.

There were only overbridges at the Dublin end of the Naas road before the widening for the golf. this might even have been at the 3 lane section, I can't remember altogether. All the overbridges at Kill, Johnstown etc are new.

All the roads that could forseeably need widening have wide medians, apart from the M7 to the M8 split from Port Laoise.
I can't see traffic on the M6 increasing to need 3 lanes each way for example.

marinbike wrote: »

Wide Median Dual Carraigeways are better because at night time, you can put your full lights on without fear of blinding oncoming cars (The wide space allows for this). Also, it makes more sense to have wide roads since a lack of space is not a problem here in ireland. The wide median Dual Carraigeways should have a tar-macked median instead of the grass; this facilitates less maintenance.

The wide median is more driver friendly.

You can only use full headlights where there is something in the way blocking your lights from dazzling oncoming traffic, the wide median itself doesn't guarantee this. On the M1 for example you need to dip lights a lot of the time.

Having a hard surface on the median will increase the capacity needed for the drainage of the road and cause increased flooding compared to allowing a soft median slow the runoff.

murphaph · 12-08-2009 9:18pm

You don't have to build wide median to ensure bridges are upgradable! You just build the bridges wider. Anyway, as already mentioned-we'd need to double our population before most of these narrow median stretches will never carry traffic volumes in excess of their design specs. We are building a relatively dense network of motorway remember, more akin to the German Autobahn model than the UK one. If all planned road improvements see the light of day, there would realistically be 4 routes from Cork to Dublin!! Wasting money on wide median roads now (and don't kid yourselves-the extra land take would significantly add to the costs) would mean fewer schemes would be built at all.

Most of the traffic volumes along many stretches of our new motorways would no justify anything more than an S2 in the UK!

BrianD · 12-08-2009 11:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose the only advantage the emergency phones have now is that you have a direct line to the relevant services, with a mobile it's "who do you call?" and it ain't ghostbusters.

Maybe there should be small signs along the hard shoulder with "useful numbers", every 500m or so.

It also allows the relevant authority pinpoint where you are. Once you lift the phone, they know where you are. A lot of Irish people struggle with directions or can't do so concisely. Plus on m-ways it's always more difficult given a lack of land marks etc.

Carawaystick · 13-08-2009 12:04am

BrianD wrote: »

It also allows the relevant authority pinpoint where you are. Once you lift the phone, they know where you are. A lot of Irish people struggle with directions or can't do so concisely. Plus on m-ways it's always more difficult given a lack of land marks etc.

or even km markers like in most other countries...

sdanseo · 13-08-2009 12:15am

As regards the Athlone bypass...I was coming off the M6 onto the bypass a while back and the only thing forcing me to slow was the road itself; not safe to keep 120-130 up. No way it can be reclassified as full motorway without easing some of the curves out. Maybe this urban motorway lark a-la M50?

Tbh, the N4 at leixlip should easily be 120kmh yet the Athlone would be far more deserving of 80 or the current 100. Pile of bollocks.

Tech3 · 13-08-2009 12:20am

sdonn wrote: »

As regards the Athlone bypass...I was coming off the M6 onto the bypass a while back and the only thing forcing me to slow was the road itself; not safe to keep 120-130 up. No way it can be reclassified as full motorway without easing some of the curves out. Maybe this urban motorway lark a-la M50?

Tbh, the N4 at leixlip should easily be 120kmh yet the Athlone would be far more deserving of 80 or the current 100. Pile of bollocks.

If its redesignated motorway it will be with 100km/hr limits.

marinbike · 14-08-2009 7:22pm

murphaph wrote: »

You don't have to build wide median to ensure bridges are upgradable! You just build the bridges wider. Anyway, as already mentioned-we'd need to double our population before most of these narrow median stretches will never carry traffic volumes in excess of their design specs. We are building a relatively dense network of motorway remember, more akin to the German Autobahn model than the UK one. If all planned road improvements see the light of day, there would realistically be 4 routes from Cork to Dublin!! Wasting money on wide median roads now (and don't kid yourselves-the extra land take would significantly add to the costs) would mean fewer schemes would be built at all.

Most of the traffic volumes along many stretches of our new motorways would no justify anything more than an S2 in the UK!

You forgot to consider the re-aligning of the on-ramps! That costs a lot of money. Now is the time to be buying land since prices have fallen!

Most roads in this country are narrow and surely its more logical to have wide roads?

BrianD · 16-08-2009 2:17pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

or even km markers like in most other countries...

People wouldn't see KM markers in the dark and they may not have noted them in the event of the emergency. Lifting the SOS phone pinpoints their location plus or minus the distance to the next SOS phone.

Carawaystick · 16-08-2009 8:28pm

BrianD wrote: »

People wouldn't see KM markers in the dark and they may not have noted them in the event of the emergency. Lifting the SOS phone pinpoints their location plus or minus the distance to the next SOS phone.

Yeah, but the cost difference to install them is large. And it won't happen, even thought it should.

Even where there are sos phones, I don't think there's markers to the nearest one.

Using the sos phone locates the user exactly, but km markers help emergency services find the correct location as they drive there.

BrianD · 16-08-2009 10:52pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Yeah, but the cost difference to install them is large. And it won't happen, even thought it should.

Even where there are sos phones, I don't think there's markers to the nearest one.

Using the sos phone locates the user exactly, but km markers help emergency services find the correct location as they drive there.

IS there a doubt that SOS phones will be installed on the reclassified routes?

I don't think I've ever seen KM markers anywhere else apart from those yellow signs they use here. Plus if the SOS phones are numbered are 2km apart then do they not serve the same purpose? If a person lifts phone number 99 on the M8 (if it exists) then the dispatcher will no that the person is between junction X and Y.

Victor · 16-09-2009 2:45am

Moved to Infrastructure.

BluntGuy · 16-09-2009 2:00pm

Have there been any updates as to what's happening with the Athlone Bypass and the installation of emergency phones on the new stretches.

billbond4 · 11-12-2009 10:28am

I spotted a camera on top of the speed is in Kilometers per hour sign going westbound at lunchtime yesterday and on top of a sign outside Ganleys.
But they took them down at lunchtime, anyone else notice them?

invinciblePRSTV · 30-06-2010 2:19pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Why are sections of the N25, already at 120km/hr, not being reclassified whilst sections of the N2 & N20 are?

This wasn't answered when i asked previously. Can anyone explain why sections of the N25/22 around Cork, the 120km designated Ballincollig Bypass & Dunkettle - Carrigtwohill, haven't been re-designated with Blue Signs? particularly as alternative routes appear to be in place.

I ask as yesterday evening taking the slip road from Ballincollig west onto the road i saw a guy leading his family of wifey & kids on bikes onto the H/S, a very stupid thing to do imo.

Chris_5339762 · 30-06-2010 5:53pm

The original plans were to have Cork to Waterford (possibly Rosslare?) 2+2 with some GSJs and higher quality sections like on the Waterford bypass and around New Ross.

2+2 junctions are roundabouts generally and 2+2 isnt up to motorway standard. So if you reclassified the good bits you'd end up with lots of bits of M between N road. Would look silly.

invinciblePRSTV · 30-06-2010 7:47pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The original plans were to have Cork to Waterford (possibly Rosslare?) 2+2 with some GSJs and higher quality sections like on the Waterford bypass and around New Ross.

2+2 junctions are roundabouts generally and 2+2 isnt up to motorway standard. So if you reclassified the good bits you'd end up with lots of bits of M between N road. Would look silly.

So what if it looks silly on a map Chris, it's crazy not to have restrictions on sections of the road with familys on bikes wandering down the Green Signed GSJ. even without the SRR upgrades & upgrades between C'hill & Midleton the whole stretch from Ballincollig to M'ton should have restrictions of some sort anyway to prevent such nonsense.

ardmacha · 30-06-2010 9:26pm

Perhaps there should be an "expressway" or similar which could apply a package of restrictions without requiring full motorway status.

invinciblePRSTV · 30-06-2010 10:20pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps there should be an "expressway" or similar which could apply a package of restrictions without requiring full motorway status.

How About N with Motorway restrictions UK style?

N25 (M)

dubhthach · 30-06-2010 10:28pm

I don't see why this section of the N25 just can't be a M25. To come up with some sort of "N road with motorway restrictions" the politicians up i Teach Laighin would have to get off their arses and pass a new law creating such a beast.

L1011 · 30-06-2010 10:43pm

Could have sworn the ability for 'special roads' as such exists in the 1993 legislation but there is no matching legislation to allow it to be retrospectively applied...

The 1993 Act was fairly forward, it legislated for UK style motorway services. Which we still haven't got! The only UK-ish HQDC services ever built here is now part derelict, part knocked and the smallest part operational... (ex-Hamills, N4, Mullingar) and it didn't even need that legislation.

Zoney · 30-06-2010 11:47pm

Maybe one could just add emergency phones (aren't the new ones solar power with batteries plus radio link?) to any future 2+2 N25 and then call it M25 despite the lack of hard shoulder? After all there are sections of motorway in the UK and elsewhere (same class as motorway) with no hard shoulder. As for roundabouts, well, even motorways can terminate at them. The main thing is having sparse junctions and no median breaks. Surely with start/end of motorway restriction signs it's not an issue having one in the middle of one?

In other words, why not just do one of our "good" Irish fudges instead of sticking to the rigid British code that leaves motorway class road as all-purpose, or requires "special" no pedestrian restrictions.

marmurr1916 · 01-07-2010 8:37pm

Zoney wrote: »

Maybe one could just add emergency phones (aren't the new ones solar power with batteries plus radio link?) to any future 2+2 N25 and then call it M25 despite the lack of hard shoulder? After all there are sections of motorway in the UK and elsewhere (same class as motorway) with no hard shoulder.

The UK's M90 has sections with no hard shoulder, just 'Emergency Laybys'.

Zoney wrote: »

As for roundabouts, well, even motorways can terminate at them. The main thing is having sparse junctions and no median breaks. Surely with start/end of motorway restriction signs it's not an issue having one in the middle of one?

There's a short section of motorway in the Greater Manchester that has a roundabout in the middle, at a junction with another motorway.

wild handlin · 01-07-2010 9:36pm

Anyone know why Sligo - Collooney (N4) hasn't been reclassified to Motorway (or at least 120km Speed limit?). It all appears to be up to standard with other roads (such as the (N) M18) yet it's still 100kmh.

Are there any plans to change this strech to 120kmh?

L1011 · 01-07-2010 10:23pm

wild handlin wrote: »

Anyone know why Sligo - Collooney (N4) hasn't been reclassified to Motorway (or at least 120km Speed limit?). It all appears to be up to standard with other roads (such as the (N) M18) yet it's still 100kmh.

Are there any plans to change this strech to 120kmh?

NRA dislike short isolated bits of motoray that join any other, thats the reason given for the N28 anyway, so I can take it it applies here.

notel70 · 02-07-2010 8:50am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Have there been any updates as to what's happening with the Athlone Bypass and the installation of emergency phones on the new stretches.

These are a waste of money and out dated.

What are the odds of someone with no phone in their car breaking down beside one?

If i did breakdown beside one id ring my insurance/local garage from my mobile phone, and i'd say so would most others

nordydan · 02-07-2010 8:50am

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

How About N with Motorway restrictions UK style?

N25 (M)

We don't need this Nx(M) stuff, leave that for the English. Makes no sense.

And can you imagine the signage errors? :rolleyes:

N25(M
(N25M)
(N25)M
{N25-["M"]}

L1011 · 02-07-2010 6:09pm

notel70 wrote: »

These are a waste of money and out dated.

What are the odds of someone with no phone in their car breaking down beside one?

If i did breakdown beside one id ring my insurance/local garage from my mobile phone, and i'd say so would most others

Lots of stretches of the M6 and M9 have little to no mobile coverage

Tourists and dozy drivers aren't going to have the slightest clue where they are.

They are still needed.

200kms of road reclassified motorway except Athlone bypass

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