[Airsoft Feedback] presence and involvement debate

Danin · 25-06-2010 09:02AM #1

Hi Lads,

I just wanted to start this tread to gauge peoples opinion regarding the way our Mods are becoming increasing involved in both locking treads and editing peoples posts.

Are our mods becoming to much like big brother or are we as posters to the forum becoming complacent regarding the way we post and the rules ?

Is their a new objective set down for Mods to have to follow regarding monitoring posts ? and if so does this explain their increased visual presence and involvement in closing treads.

But before we start, I'd like to point out that this tread should be a valid discussion and not taken as an opportunity to victimise, single out any one mod or slander their hard work because for the best part they do a good job. I'd also like to point out that their work is completely voluntary

So lets keep it clean and let's enjoy a good debate

cpb · 25-06-2010 09:05AM

in before the lock:D

Puding · 25-06-2010 09:15AM

I feel sorry for the airsoft mods at the moment , a hell of a lot of sarcasm directed at some of them and egos on boards that think tbh they can do what they want, you seemed dames if you do nothing and damed if you do not

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

Airsoft Reloded · 25-06-2010 09:24AM

It could have something to do with the fact that everyone is paying now maybe, they have to be sure that people are obeying the rules.

I think they do a good job though, moderators are supposed to moderate after all!

gerrowadat · 25-06-2010 09:31AM

Helpdesk tends to be just a stomping ground for people who know nothing about Airsoft to weigh in, and then nothing gets done.

Yeah, the last few weeks reminds me of the first few weeks of "The Master" -- posts disappearing and being sneakily edited, threads being locked because a mod doesn't agree it'll be a good discussion.

This is a web forum -- by definition the discussion should be driven by the users, with the mods only stepping in as caretakers if someone actually steps on the charter or does something stupid. The double standards being enforced right now are just going to drive away another load of users (I know 2 or 3 formerly prominent users who left because of the Master, and fair play to the master actually for standing up and going "OKay, fair enough, the crowd have spoken").

As far as I'm aware it's well-known to the cmod and DeVore that this is going on, and why (the reason is blindingly obvious of course). Just a matter of time before something egregiously dumb happens and it gets sorted.

Shadow78 · 25-06-2010 09:32AM

The modding on the airsoft forums does seem a lot more heavy handed than a lot of the other forums I read here.

Beez · 25-06-2010 09:33AM

Threads do seem to be locked very quickly imo. Fair enough if a thread is gone way off topic or talking of over joule limit etc, but a bit of humour/banter doesnt hurt really does it??

fayer · 25-06-2010 09:38AM

Hi Keith,

Nice post, I hope this can be kept to a mature discussion.

I would say alot of what happens here now can remain unchecked, politics is mostly gone, except for the odd digg at an origination or company, and the mods deal with that stuff swiftly and well.

I have however notice a change in the style and moderation and standard terms of reference. Lighthearted discussion appears to be getting pushed out and the trigger is getting pulled very quickly on some topics / posts. Posts are being edited / deleted and no moderation notice is being posted to inform the public action was taken, no PM is sent to the poster to notify them of the charter breach they have committed.

Boards got where it is because the community drives the debate and the conversation and the humor in allot of cases, it is the ethos of the now company, I think our little corner is not being allowed debate with the freedoms that make this site as successful as it is.

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

gerrowadat · 25-06-2010 09:52AM

fayer wrote: »

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

+1. 300 quid a year for a thread, for a non-profit club? Get over yourselves. I paid 200 quid for the privilege of being a member of Midlands Airsoft Club, and the fact that boards wants that and more back off them just for having a thread is unreal.

Puding · 25-06-2010 09:58AM

umm is that not really down to boards itself than the mods or am i completely missing something, and what qualifys as a non profit club? yet to see any other than a couple with open books and agm with a committee, how can you draw the line been site A and site B when on paper they both look the same

Airsoft Reloded · 25-06-2010 09:58AM

There is a discussion to that effect in the private retailers and sites forum. Thats pretty much the opinion of everybody.

It is true that all sites have overheads and nearly all sites have trouble paying them. I see no distinction between non profit and for profit or erm "non profit".

fayer · 25-06-2010 10:02AM

Puding wrote: »

and what qualifys as a non profit club?

Its defined by the revenue, IAA have all the info, its very easy to check. Go's back to the old issue that any site can have a thread here no matter who they are with no checks.

From the revenue inserted into the IAA constitution.

Article 18 Tax Status
1. Income and Property

The income and property of the IAA, shall be applied solely towards the promotion of its main object as
set forth in this Constitution. No portion of the body's income and property shall be paid or transferred
directly or indirectly by way of dividend, bonus or otherwise howsoever by way of profit, to the
members of the body. No Officer shall be appointed to any office of the body paid by salary or fees, or
receive any remuneration or other benefit in money or money's worth from the body. However, nothing
shall prevent any payment in good faith by the body of:

I. reasonable and proper remuneration to any member of the body (not being an Officer) for any
services rendered to the body

II. interest at a rate not exceeding 5% per annum on money lent by Officers or other members of the
body to the body

III. reasonable and proper rent for premises demised and let by any member of the body (including
any Officer) to the body

IV. reasonable and proper out-of-pocket expenses incurred by any Officer in connection with their
attendance to any matter affecting the body

V. fees, remuneration or other benefit in money or money's worth to any Company of which an
Officer may be a member holding not more than one hundredth part of the issued capital of such
Company.

2. Winding-up

If upon the winding up or dissolution of the body there remains, after the satisfaction of all its debts and
liabilities, any property whatsoever, it shall not be paid to or distributed among the members of the body.
Instead, such property shall be given or transferred to some other charitable institution or institutions
having main objects similar to the main objects of the body. The institution or institutions to which the
property is to be given or transferred shall prohibit the distribution of its or their income and property
among its or their members to an extent at least as great as is imposed on the body under or by virtue of
Clause 6 hereof. Members of the body shall select the relevant institution or institutions at or before the
time of dissolution, and if and so far as effect cannot be given to such provisions, then the property shall
be given or transferred to some charitable object.

3. Additions, alterations or amendments

No addition, alteration or amendment shall be made to or in the provisions of this Constitution for the
time being in force unless the same shall have been previously approved in writing by the Revenue
Commissioners.

4. Keeping of Accounts
Annual audited accounts shall be kept and made available to the Revenue Commissioners on request.

I will add the caveat that the mods are volunteers, making them jump through red tape loops is a bit mad, but if boards are making money form these threads standards should be there. (This is for another conversation, it could have a tread all on its own, and think it has in the past.)

BioHazRd · 25-06-2010 10:03AM

Firstly, I am not speaking on behalf of the IAA
I am however, going to put on my (ex)moderators hat as I say that I think things here HAVE changed lately as most people have noticed, and not for the better either. However, I dont moderate this forum, nor would I try to tell another mod how to do their job in public - I just feel that some things need a bit of consideration before any response / action is taken. Boards.ie is the sum of its userbase, please dont alienate any of them any further

bullets · 25-06-2010 10:12AM

The pay to have a retailer thread.

Is this something that is unique to the airsoft section of
boards.ie ?? Its just I've never noticed dedicated threads
(which people have to pay for) in other boards.ie sections.
(Then again I only look at a few boards areas)

~B

fayer · 25-06-2010 10:16AM

Attached subscription payment menu, dont see any option for paying for other types of threads.

Hosted forums seem to be a different topic, but again for large organisations.

Puding · 25-06-2010 10:16AM

fayer wrote: »

Its defined by the revenue, IAA have all the info, its very easy to check. Go's back to the old issue that any site can have a thread here no matter who they are with no checks.

From the revenue inserted into the IAA constitution.

yes i do know, i did help set up a non for profit club and been involved in around 4 other sports related non profit sports organizations, so point me in the direction of the clubs that have an open and transparent structure and running along the lines of any other sports club i know ( committee constitution agm etc etc )

but this is for another debate tbh it really has nothing to do with the mods but more to do with boards as a whole

on a side note its interesting to see how people see boards, people seem to be it as a public service when in reality it is a business, yes boards need users but also users do not run the shop, i've seen a mob mentality develop in airsoft all to often to force thought what a few want, airsoft ton boards has got away with an lot of freedom especially around shops and sites and advertising, its interesting to see how business are dealt with in other sections of boards its rather surprising there not complaining at this stage

fayer · 25-06-2010 10:18AM

Puding wrote: »

yes i do know, i did help set up a non for profit club and been involved in around 4 other sports related non profit sports organisations, so point me in the direction of the clubs that have an open and transparent structure and running along the lines of any other sports club i know ( committee constitution agm etc etc )

but this is for another debate tbh it really has nothing to do with the mods but more to do with boards as a whole

Agreed, sorry for derailing Keith.

Blazer · 25-06-2010 10:23AM

LAC (Limerick) is a non-profit site and I'm trying to persuade them to shell out for a thread..they were wondering why they should be charged as they were a non-profit site and I agreed with them.
But then I thought of the following
It's only €25 a month which means 1 person's skirmish for one day will pay boards for the month (most sites are €25 for a full day)...and if the thread brings an increase in numbers to that site well then that money spent is well justified.

Not sure about the modding as after a couple of jokey comments I made that got me a temp ban I'm inclined to keep my mouth shut

Lemming · 25-06-2010 10:40AM

Danin wrote: »

I just wanted to start this tread to gauge peoples opinion regarding the way our Mods are becoming increasing involved in both locking treads and editing peoples posts.

Are our mods becoming to much like big brother or are we as posters to the forum becoming complacent regarding the way we post and the rules ?

I think users have/are becoming complacent about the forum rules. That and the fact that in the run up to the appointment of a new moderator (andy_g), the existing moderators did not appear to be particularly active. we now have - on the face of it - only one apparently active moderator. So after the inactivity, suddenly application of the rules seems harsh or strict. I encountered the exact same reaction as airsoft adverts moderator after banning somebody for open abuse (as has always been a fairly consistent boards.ie-wide policy) and then having another user complain that "shure what did he do wrong. That's only an infraction" because I hadn't banned anybody prior to that for a few weeks - much less for being abusive towards another user.

Puding wrote: »

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

I do think that this is very much the wrong place to raise this issue; as much as Helpdesk can become a signal-to-noise ratio affair. But that usually only happens when somebody comes in with an "OMFG I R 0PR3SS3D!" thread. If arguments are put across in coherrent, logical fashion then you're more likely to see a productive thread in feedback.

Shadow78 wrote: »

The modding on the airsoft forums does seem a lot more heavy handed than a lot of the other forums I read here.

See above for application of the rules. You must really not read a lot of other forums on boards.ie then. Have a walk over to either Politics (ho ho ho) or Soccer where you'll need to request permission to post ...

fayer wrote: »

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

gerrowadat wrote: »

+1. 300 quid a year for a thread, for a non-profit club? Get over yourselves. I paid 200 quid for the privilege of being a member of Midlands Airsoft Club, and the fact that boards wants that and more back off them just for having a thread is unreal.

On the issue of cost I shall mostly agree, although I shall however keep what I know about this to myself because it is a whole other matter for boards.ie to deal with. THe viewpoint of boards.ie has always been that they are providing a captive market (whatever that market may be) for companies and/or organisations to come in and tap, and that they would like these to put something back into the community for this (i.e. subs). I do think that the cost for non-profit entities is a bit high and should probably be pulled back down to individual subscriber costs or nominally above those costs rather than what it is currently.

But this is a whole other issue, and not one for debating here nor is it our place to debate those costs since we are neither party affected (boards PLC or non-profit entities)

Danin · 25-06-2010 10:42AM

Sorry lads but can we stay on topic the recent events regarding the Non Profit Sites are a relevant topic, one I'd only be to happy to debate in dept but they are a completely separate issue and I don't want anyone thinking I started this tread as a rouse to discuss the non profit issue in public.

I'd also like to point out that I've just learned that I have broken the rules by starting this tread, to which I apologise it wasn't intentional

fayer · 25-06-2010 10:53AM

Lemming wrote: »

I think users have/are becoming complacent about the forum rules. That and the fact that in the run up to the appointment of a new moderator (andy_g), the existing moderators did not appear to be particularly active. we now have - on the face of it - only one apparently active moderator. So after the inactivity, suddenly application of the rules seems harsh or strict. I encountered the exact same reaction as airsoft adverts moderator after banning somebody for open abuse (as has always been a fairly consistent boards.ie-wide policy) and then having another user complain that "shure what did he do wrong. That's only an infraction" because I hadn't banned anybody prior to that for a few weeks - much less for being abusive towards another user.

I see your point and it dose make sence, weather the OP is correct or not might be getting blurred by the fact of what appears as very poor moderation. Silently snipping posts, and editing without public notifications, PM's, warnings, or infractions turns moderation into censorship as it appears to all other posters that the now edited post they are reading is the original thesis of the poster that made it.

If i post something that is my view and someone edits out part of it the context changes. At least the old <Snip for X reason> left a notice that my context has been changed. Same runs through for post removal in a debate.

What is overbearing is post removal like the one in the TA thread, Doc posted a video from Zulu, which TBH is very like what the next games offensive will be like, post was removed, no notification to anyone, why I ask.

gerrowadat · 25-06-2010 11:13AM

fayer wrote: »

If i post something that is my view and someone edits out part of it the context changes. At least the old <Snip for X reason> left a notice that my context has been changed. Same runs through for post removal in a debate.

What is overbearing is post removal like the one in the TA thread, Doc posted a video from Zulu, which TBH is very like what the next games offensive will be like, post was removed, no notification to anyone, why I ask.

This is exactly my point. I honestly don't mind if a mod edits my post and puts a note saying "post edited due to charter violation/whatever". Honestly no problem. If the charter is changed to say we're not allowed to discuss the colour blue, or the weather, then that's also fine. It's boards.ie's perogative because they provide the service.

What I *do* have a problem with is:

- Posts that are completely harmless (and even relevant) being removed. This makes the board not be a forum for discussion, but a forum for discussion that a very small number of the board's members finds relevant or interesting. Deleting posts also changes the context of the discussion. I've been asked at sites and in person "hey Dave, I thought you would have let people know what you thought about subject X on that thread". Turns out I did, but it was deleted because it didn't please the moderator to leave my post there.

- My own posts being edited quietly and without notification. What's being done there is that the moderator is using the boards.ie system to put words in my mouth, and change the context of my post to make out I said something in a way that I didn't.

Rules are rules, fine, I have no problem. Moderators using the board as their own personal playground, not so much.

Sparks · 25-06-2010 11:18AM

Thread moved to feedback.

Danin · 25-06-2010 11:19AM

Puding wrote: »

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

My apologies Puding if you feel it's just creating a seen, but I think when peoples posts are being deleted without their prior knowledge and with no reason being given as to why, then this can only lead to creating a seen with for all intensive purposes a person who may be otherwise a very responsible poster.

Where has the ability for a person to be steered in the right direction gone, the opportunity to retract a comment ones self after an enlightening pm from a mod.

I would assume being a moderator would require a person to be above reproach more so than the average poster and completely impartial, I would also expect that when proven wrong admit to being wrong as it stands more to your character and you would gain even more respect.
Moderators are only people too at the end of the day and therefore can be open to being wrong at certain times but using silence as a tool at these situations in my opinion does not work and locking certain treads before they start also does not work as one assumes the worst and gives the impression they know better.

moderating is never going to be easy nor will everyone always agree but as Lemming said do we look at ourselves first before we point the finger at the mods or is the charter of the moderators changing I'm not sure...

McGilla · 25-06-2010 11:19AM

Being new enough to Boards & the Airsoft section, I find this to be the most usefull way to get information on a new sport and to meet with people with a similar interest!

I do not envy the Mods in their role, and I think the success of the Airsoft section is down to two main factors.

1 - The genuine concideration and respect shown by most airsoft memeber on boards. (for the most part)

2 - The good job the mods are doing!

I do how ever think there could be an increased level of leniency shown by MODs on occassion. - especcially towards new members who aren't that fimiliar with how boards works.

I almost deleted my account when after only a few days I was told by a MOD to drop the attitude or i wont make it past 40 posts!
- I genuinly didnt mean to come across as a keyboard general

(many of which Ive encountered on other international forums)

I also noted if someone pops a little joke, MODs are inclined to step in, I think this is unnecessary, as long as the poster isn't completely derailing the Topic.

Another recent instance where a mod didnt find someones post either funny or relivant and left a snappy "This contributes to the forum how?" came acroos as complette over-kill to me!

So what Im trying to say, is they (The Mods) do a good job!
(a very good job!)

The quality of the Threads are testiment to that!

But a bit more humour wouldn't hurt!

(Do i feel a week off coming for this?)

Tigger · 25-06-2010 11:20AM

I agree with fayer (spooky!)

fayer wrote: »

Hi Keith,

Nice post, I hope this can be kept to a mature discussion.

I would say alot of what happens here now can remain unchecked, politics is mostly gone, except for the odd digg at an origination or company, and the mods deal with that stuff swiftly and well.

I have however notice a change in the style and moderation and standard terms of reference. Lighthearted discussion appears to be getting pushed out and the trigger is getting pulled very quickly on some topics / posts. Posts are being edited / deleted and no moderation notice is being posted to inform the public action was taken, no PM is sent to the poster to notify them of the charter breach they have committed.

Boards got where it is because the community drives the debate and the conversation and the humor in allot of cases, it is the ethos of the now company, I think our little corner is not being allowed debate with the freedoms that make this site as successful as it is.

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

fayer · 25-06-2010 11:20AM

Sparks wrote: »

Thread moved to feedback.

Hi Sparks,

Disappointed this ended up here. Can you change the subject so this stays Airsoft related.

Sparks · 25-06-2010 11:24AM

fayer wrote: »

Disappointed this ended up here.

Even the OP realised it should have started here. It's about as close to the definition of a feedback thread as you can get.

Can you change the subject so this stays Airsoft related.

Yes, doing that now, but the airsoft mods may wish something else done so this is a temporary measure to keep stuff tidy until they get here.

McGilla · 25-06-2010 11:25AM

Post edited as Mods have stepped in!

fayer · 25-06-2010 11:27AM

Sparks wrote: »

Even the OP realised it should have started here. It's about as close to the definition of a feedback thread as you can get.Yes, doing that now, but the airsoft mods may wish something else done so this is a temporary measure to keep stuff tidy until they get here.

Thanks, there input would be welcome in this conversation. I am aware we only see one side here currently in this thread, I just hope that input go's a little further than the word Locked

Puding · 25-06-2010 11:32AM

My apologies Puding if you feel it's just creating a seen, but I think when peoples posts are being deleted without their prior knowledge and with no reason being given as to why, than this can only lead to creating a seen with for all intensive purposes a person who may be otherwise a very responsible poster.

i do apologize if what i posted came over the wrong way, unfortunately in the past threads like this have just been about throwing mud and nothing constructive, lately there has been a lot of 'talking to the air' about post changed and deleted in threads, know i do not really agree with some of the changed as they seem a little random, but there is a process in place to look into this and bring a mod to the attention of boards, email the mod if you do not get a reply or do not think the reply is fair you can then take it up the ladder

mods should not abuse power and should not alienate but users should also respect the mods and not be deliberately confrontational and sarcastic, airsoft is a small community and especially with the dublin crowd a lot of external baggage is carried onto boards, it was rather clear that some people did not like andy becoming mod for example, i have no idea why as an outsider and i do not care it just seemed childish and that has just carried on onto other threads

[Airsoft Feedback] presence and involvement debate

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