[Airsoft Feedback] presence and involvement debate

Danin

Hi Lads,

I just wanted to start this tread to gauge peoples opinion regarding the way our Mods are becoming increasing involved in both locking treads and editing peoples posts.

Are our mods becoming to much like big brother or are we as posters to the forum becoming complacent regarding the way we post and the rules ?

Is their a new objective set down for Mods to have to follow regarding monitoring posts ? and if so does this explain their increased visual presence and involvement in closing treads.

But before we start, I'd like to point out that this tread should be a valid discussion and not taken as an opportunity to victimise, single out any one mod or slander their hard work because for the best part they do a good job. I'd also like to point out that their work is completely voluntary

So lets keep it clean and let's enjoy a good debate

cpb

in before the lock:D

Puding

I feel sorry for the airsoft mods at the moment , a hell of a lot of sarcasm directed at some of them and egos on boards that think tbh they can do what they want, you seemed dames if you do nothing and damed if you do not

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

Airsoft Reloded

It could have something to do with the fact that everyone is paying now maybe, they have to be sure that people are obeying the rules.

I think they do a good job though, moderators are supposed to moderate after all!

gerrowadat

Helpdesk tends to be just a stomping ground for people who know nothing about Airsoft to weigh in, and then nothing gets done.

Yeah, the last few weeks reminds me of the first few weeks of "The Master" -- posts disappearing and being sneakily edited, threads being locked because a mod doesn't agree it'll be a good discussion.

This is a web forum -- by definition the discussion should be driven by the users, with the mods only stepping in as caretakers if someone actually steps on the charter or does something stupid. The double standards being enforced right now are just going to drive away another load of users (I know 2 or 3 formerly prominent users who left because of the Master, and fair play to the master actually for standing up and going "OKay, fair enough, the crowd have spoken").

As far as I'm aware it's well-known to the cmod and DeVore that this is going on, and why (the reason is blindingly obvious of course). Just a matter of time before something egregiously dumb happens and it gets sorted.

Shadow78

The modding on the airsoft forums does seem a lot more heavy handed than a lot of the other forums I read here.

Beez

Threads do seem to be locked very quickly imo. Fair enough if a thread is gone way off topic or talking of over joule limit etc, but a bit of humour/banter doesnt hurt really does it??

fayer

Hi Keith,

Nice post, I hope this can be kept to a mature discussion.

I would say alot of what happens here now can remain unchecked, politics is mostly gone, except for the odd digg at an origination or company, and the mods deal with that stuff swiftly and well.

I have however notice a change in the style and moderation and standard terms of reference. Lighthearted discussion appears to be getting pushed out and the trigger is getting pulled very quickly on some topics / posts. Posts are being edited / deleted and no moderation notice is being posted to inform the public action was taken, no PM is sent to the poster to notify them of the charter breach they have committed.

Boards got where it is because the community drives the debate and the conversation and the humor in allot of cases, it is the ethos of the now company, I think our little corner is not being allowed debate with the freedoms that make this site as successful as it is.

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

gerrowadat

fayer wrote: »

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

+1. 300 quid a year for a thread, for a non-profit club? Get over yourselves. I paid 200 quid for the privilege of being a member of Midlands Airsoft Club, and the fact that boards wants that and more back off them just for having a thread is unreal.

Puding

umm is that not really down to boards itself than the mods or am i completely missing something, and what qualifys as a non profit club? yet to see any other than a couple with open books and agm with a committee, how can you draw the line been site A and site B when on paper they both look the same

Airsoft Reloded

There is a discussion to that effect in the private retailers and sites forum. Thats pretty much the opinion of everybody.

It is true that all sites have overheads and nearly all sites have trouble paying them. I see no distinction between non profit and for profit or erm "non profit".

fayer

Puding wrote: »

and what qualifys as a non profit club?

Its defined by the revenue, IAA have all the info, its very easy to check. Go's back to the old issue that any site can have a thread here no matter who they are with no checks.

From the revenue inserted into the IAA constitution.

Article 18 Tax Status
1. Income and Property

The income and property of the IAA, shall be applied solely towards the promotion of its main object as
set forth in this Constitution. No portion of the body's income and property shall be paid or transferred
directly or indirectly by way of dividend, bonus or otherwise howsoever by way of profit, to the
members of the body. No Officer shall be appointed to any office of the body paid by salary or fees, or
receive any remuneration or other benefit in money or money's worth from the body. However, nothing
shall prevent any payment in good faith by the body of:

I. reasonable and proper remuneration to any member of the body (not being an Officer) for any
services rendered to the body

II. interest at a rate not exceeding 5% per annum on money lent by Officers or other members of the
body to the body

III. reasonable and proper rent for premises demised and let by any member of the body (including
any Officer) to the body

IV. reasonable and proper out-of-pocket expenses incurred by any Officer in connection with their
attendance to any matter affecting the body

V. fees, remuneration or other benefit in money or money's worth to any Company of which an
Officer may be a member holding not more than one hundredth part of the issued capital of such
Company.

2. Winding-up

If upon the winding up or dissolution of the body there remains, after the satisfaction of all its debts and
liabilities, any property whatsoever, it shall not be paid to or distributed among the members of the body.
Instead, such property shall be given or transferred to some other charitable institution or institutions
having main objects similar to the main objects of the body. The institution or institutions to which the
property is to be given or transferred shall prohibit the distribution of its or their income and property
among its or their members to an extent at least as great as is imposed on the body under or by virtue of
Clause 6 hereof. Members of the body shall select the relevant institution or institutions at or before the
time of dissolution, and if and so far as effect cannot be given to such provisions, then the property shall
be given or transferred to some charitable object.

3. Additions, alterations or amendments

No addition, alteration or amendment shall be made to or in the provisions of this Constitution for the
time being in force unless the same shall have been previously approved in writing by the Revenue
Commissioners.

4. Keeping of Accounts
Annual audited accounts shall be kept and made available to the Revenue Commissioners on request.

I will add the caveat that the mods are volunteers, making them jump through red tape loops is a bit mad, but if boards are making money form these threads standards should be there. (This is for another conversation, it could have a tread all on its own, and think it has in the past.)

BioHazRd

Firstly, I am not speaking on behalf of the IAA
I am however, going to put on my (ex)moderators hat as I say that I think things here HAVE changed lately as most people have noticed, and not for the better either. However, I dont moderate this forum, nor would I try to tell another mod how to do their job in public - I just feel that some things need a bit of consideration before any response / action is taken. Boards.ie is the sum of its userbase, please dont alienate any of them any further

bullets

The pay to have a retailer thread.

Is this something that is unique to the airsoft section of
boards.ie ?? Its just I've never noticed dedicated threads
(which people have to pay for) in other boards.ie sections.
(Then again I only look at a few boards areas)


~B

fayer

Attached subscription payment menu, dont see any option for paying for other types of threads.

Hosted forums seem to be a different topic, but again for large organisations.

Puding

fayer wrote: »

Its defined by the revenue, IAA have all the info, its very easy to check. Go's back to the old issue that any site can have a thread here no matter who they are with no checks.

From the revenue inserted into the IAA constitution.

yes i do know, i did help set up a non for profit club and been involved in around 4 other sports related non profit sports organizations, so point me in the direction of the clubs that have an open and transparent structure and running along the lines of any other sports club i know ( committee constitution agm etc etc )

but this is for another debate tbh it really has nothing to do with the mods but more to do with boards as a whole

on a side note its interesting to see how people see boards, people seem to be it as a public service when in reality it is a business, yes boards need users but also users do not run the shop, i've seen a mob mentality develop in airsoft all to often to force thought what a few want, airsoft ton boards has got away with an lot of freedom especially around shops and sites and advertising, its interesting to see how business are dealt with in other sections of boards its rather surprising there not complaining at this stage

fayer

Puding wrote: »

yes i do know, i did help set up a non for profit club and been involved in around 4 other sports related non profit sports organisations, so point me in the direction of the clubs that have an open and transparent structure and running along the lines of any other sports club i know ( committee constitution agm etc etc )

but this is for another debate tbh it really has nothing to do with the mods but more to do with boards as a whole

Agreed, sorry for derailing Keith.

Blazer

LAC (Limerick) is a non-profit site and I'm trying to persuade them to shell out for a thread..they were wondering why they should be charged as they were a non-profit site and I agreed with them.
But then I thought of the following
It's only €25 a month which means 1 person's skirmish for one day will pay boards for the month (most sites are €25 for a full day)...and if the thread brings an increase in numbers to that site well then that money spent is well justified.

Not sure about the modding as after a couple of jokey comments I made that got me a temp ban I'm inclined to keep my mouth shut

Lemming

Danin wrote: »

I just wanted to start this tread to gauge peoples opinion regarding the way our Mods are becoming increasing involved in both locking treads and editing peoples posts.

Are our mods becoming to much like big brother or are we as posters to the forum becoming complacent regarding the way we post and the rules ?

I think users have/are becoming complacent about the forum rules. That and the fact that in the run up to the appointment of a new moderator (andy_g), the existing moderators did not appear to be particularly active. we now have - on the face of it - only one apparently active moderator. So after the inactivity, suddenly application of the rules seems harsh or strict. I encountered the exact same reaction as airsoft adverts moderator after banning somebody for open abuse (as has always been a fairly consistent boards.ie-wide policy) and then having another user complain that "shure what did he do wrong. That's only an infraction" because I hadn't banned anybody prior to that for a few weeks - much less for being abusive towards another user.

Puding wrote: »

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

I do think that this is very much the wrong place to raise this issue; as much as Helpdesk can become a signal-to-noise ratio affair. But that usually only happens when somebody comes in with an "OMFG I R 0PR3SS3D!" thread. If arguments are put across in coherrent, logical fashion then you're more likely to see a productive thread in feedback.

Shadow78 wrote: »

The modding on the airsoft forums does seem a lot more heavy handed than a lot of the other forums I read here.

See above for application of the rules. You must really not read a lot of other forums on boards.ie then. Have a walk over to either Politics (ho ho ho) or Soccer where you'll need to request permission to post ...

fayer wrote: »

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

gerrowadat wrote: »

+1. 300 quid a year for a thread, for a non-profit club? Get over yourselves. I paid 200 quid for the privilege of being a member of Midlands Airsoft Club, and the fact that boards wants that and more back off them just for having a thread is unreal.

On the issue of cost I shall mostly agree, although I shall however keep what I know about this to myself because it is a whole other matter for boards.ie to deal with. THe viewpoint of boards.ie has always been that they are providing a captive market (whatever that market may be) for companies and/or organisations to come in and tap, and that they would like these to put something back into the community for this (i.e. subs). I do think that the cost for non-profit entities is a bit high and should probably be pulled back down to individual subscriber costs or nominally above those costs rather than what it is currently.

But this is a whole other issue, and not one for debating here nor is it our place to debate those costs since we are neither party affected (boards PLC or non-profit entities)

Danin

Sorry lads but can we stay on topic the recent events regarding the Non Profit Sites are a relevant topic, one I'd only be to happy to debate in dept but they are a completely separate issue and I don't want anyone thinking I started this tread as a rouse to discuss the non profit issue in public.

I'd also like to point out that I've just learned that I have broken the rules by starting this tread, to which I apologise it wasn't intentional

fayer

Lemming wrote: »

I think users have/are becoming complacent about the forum rules. That and the fact that in the run up to the appointment of a new moderator (andy_g), the existing moderators did not appear to be particularly active. we now have - on the face of it - only one apparently active moderator. So after the inactivity, suddenly application of the rules seems harsh or strict. I encountered the exact same reaction as airsoft adverts moderator after banning somebody for open abuse (as has always been a fairly consistent boards.ie-wide policy) and then having another user complain that "shure what did he do wrong. That's only an infraction" because I hadn't banned anybody prior to that for a few weeks - much less for being abusive towards another user.

I see your point and it dose make sence, weather the OP is correct or not might be getting blurred by the fact of what appears as very poor moderation. Silently snipping posts, and editing without public notifications, PM's, warnings, or infractions turns moderation into censorship as it appears to all other posters that the now edited post they are reading is the original thesis of the poster that made it.

If i post something that is my view and someone edits out part of it the context changes. At least the old <Snip for X reason> left a notice that my context has been changed. Same runs through for post removal in a debate.

What is overbearing is post removal like the one in the TA thread, Doc posted a video from Zulu, which TBH is very like what the next games offensive will be like, post was removed, no notification to anyone, why I ask.

gerrowadat

fayer wrote: »

If i post something that is my view and someone edits out part of it the context changes. At least the old <Snip for X reason> left a notice that my context has been changed. Same runs through for post removal in a debate.

What is overbearing is post removal like the one in the TA thread, Doc posted a video from Zulu, which TBH is very like what the next games offensive will be like, post was removed, no notification to anyone, why I ask.

This is exactly my point. I honestly don't mind if a mod edits my post and puts a note saying "post edited due to charter violation/whatever". Honestly no problem. If the charter is changed to say we're not allowed to discuss the colour blue, or the weather, then that's also fine. It's boards.ie's perogative because they provide the service.

What I *do* have a problem with is:

- Posts that are completely harmless (and even relevant) being removed. This makes the board not be a forum for discussion, but a forum for discussion that a very small number of the board's members finds relevant or interesting. Deleting posts also changes the context of the discussion. I've been asked at sites and in person "hey Dave, I thought you would have let people know what you thought about subject X on that thread". Turns out I did, but it was deleted because it didn't please the moderator to leave my post there.

- My own posts being edited quietly and without notification. What's being done there is that the moderator is using the boards.ie system to put words in my mouth, and change the context of my post to make out I said something in a way that I didn't.

Rules are rules, fine, I have no problem. Moderators using the board as their own personal playground, not so much.

Sparks

Thread moved to feedback.

Danin

Puding wrote: »

but this thread should really be in helpdesk otherwise in my opinion it's just about creating a seen

My apologies Puding if you feel it's just creating a seen, but I think when peoples posts are being deleted without their prior knowledge and with no reason being given as to why, then this can only lead to creating a seen with for all intensive purposes a person who may be otherwise a very responsible poster.

Where has the ability for a person to be steered in the right direction gone, the opportunity to retract a comment ones self after an enlightening pm from a mod.

I would assume being a moderator would require a person to be above reproach more so than the average poster and completely impartial, I would also expect that when proven wrong admit to being wrong as it stands more to your character and you would gain even more respect.
Moderators are only people too at the end of the day and therefore can be open to being wrong at certain times but using silence as a tool at these situations in my opinion does not work and locking certain treads before they start also does not work as one assumes the worst and gives the impression they know better.

moderating is never going to be easy nor will everyone always agree but as Lemming said do we look at ourselves first before we point the finger at the mods or is the charter of the moderators changing I'm not sure...

McGilla

Being new enough to Boards & the Airsoft section, I find this to be the most usefull way to get information on a new sport and to meet with people with a similar interest!

I do not envy the Mods in their role, and I think the success of the Airsoft section is down to two main factors.

1 - The genuine concideration and respect shown by most airsoft memeber on boards. (for the most part)

2 - The good job the mods are doing!

I do how ever think there could be an increased level of leniency shown by MODs on occassion. - especcially towards new members who aren't that fimiliar with how boards works.

I almost deleted my account when after only a few days I was told by a MOD to drop the attitude or i wont make it past 40 posts!
- I genuinly didnt mean to come across as a keyboard general
(many of which Ive encountered on other international forums)

I also noted if someone pops a little joke, MODs are inclined to step in, I think this is unnecessary, as long as the poster isn't completely derailing the Topic.

Another recent instance where a mod didnt find someones post either funny or relivant and left a snappy "This contributes to the forum how?" came acroos as complette over-kill to me!

So what Im trying to say, is they (The Mods) do a good job!
(a very good job!)

The quality of the Threads are testiment to that!

But a bit more humour wouldn't hurt!

(Do i feel a week off coming for this?)

Tigger

I agree with fayer (spooky!)

fayer wrote: »

Hi Keith,

Nice post, I hope this can be kept to a mature discussion.

I would say alot of what happens here now can remain unchecked, politics is mostly gone, except for the odd digg at an origination or company, and the mods deal with that stuff swiftly and well.

I have however notice a change in the style and moderation and standard terms of reference. Lighthearted discussion appears to be getting pushed out and the trigger is getting pulled very quickly on some topics / posts. Posts are being edited / deleted and no moderation notice is being posted to inform the public action was taken, no PM is sent to the poster to notify them of the charter breach they have committed.

Boards got where it is because the community drives the debate and the conversation and the humor in allot of cases, it is the ethos of the now company, I think our little corner is not being allowed debate with the freedoms that make this site as successful as it is.

While on a topic of somewhat feedback, I think the current treatment of the not for profit clubs is a disgrace and damaging for the sport, these clubs and there members are the most dedicated members of our society, who put up large amounts of there own money to create facilities so they and others can enjoy the sport. Most clubs rely on handouts to keep the bills paid (insurance, rent) and boards has the balls to ask them for monthly rental for a thread. Shame on you.

fayer

Sparks wrote: »

Thread moved to feedback.

Hi Sparks,

Disappointed this ended up here. Can you change the subject so this stays Airsoft related.

Sparks

fayer wrote: »

Disappointed this ended up here.

Even the OP realised it should have started here. It's about as close to the definition of a feedback thread as you can get.

Can you change the subject so this stays Airsoft related.

Yes, doing that now, but the airsoft mods may wish something else done so this is a temporary measure to keep stuff tidy until they get here.

McGilla

Post edited as Mods have stepped in!

fayer

Sparks wrote: »

Even the OP realised it should have started here. It's about as close to the definition of a feedback thread as you can get.Yes, doing that now, but the airsoft mods may wish something else done so this is a temporary measure to keep stuff tidy until they get here.

Thanks, there input would be welcome in this conversation. I am aware we only see one side here currently in this thread, I just hope that input go's a little further than the word Locked

Puding

My apologies Puding if you feel it's just creating a seen, but I think when peoples posts are being deleted without their prior knowledge and with no reason being given as to why, than this can only lead to creating a seen with for all intensive purposes a person who may be otherwise a very responsible poster.

i do apologize if what i posted came over the wrong way, unfortunately in the past threads like this have just been about throwing mud and nothing constructive, lately there has been a lot of 'talking to the air' about post changed and deleted in threads, know i do not really agree with some of the changed as they seem a little random, but there is a process in place to look into this and bring a mod to the attention of boards, email the mod if you do not get a reply or do not think the reply is fair you can then take it up the ladder

mods should not abuse power and should not alienate but users should also respect the mods and not be deliberately confrontational and sarcastic, airsoft is a small community and especially with the dublin crowd a lot of external baggage is carried onto boards, it was rather clear that some people did not like andy becoming mod for example, i have no idea why as an outsider and i do not care it just seemed childish and that has just carried on onto other threads

Danin

I hope the lads are open to this discussion and don't take it the wrong way it's not directed at throwing dirt at them as I said in my original post, it's a mutual respect thing and an open opportunity to discuss the current issues in a civilized manner as adults.

it's good to talk.....

Puding

Danin wrote: »

To me this comment when read in context made by a moderator just insights a reaction from the recipient and could have easily manifested into the recipient getting banned if he had reacted to the bate.

on the other side of the coin if the poster and mod where not who they where or the poster was someone new or random the post would have in the past been deleted or the poster banned right away

i read it as an attempt to not just delete post because of what had been said in the past and to keep the warning transparent, but everyone pov is different

fayer

Puding wrote: »

airsoft is a small community and especially with the dublin crowd a lot of external baggage is carried onto boards, it was rather clear that some people did not like andy becoming mod for example, i have no idea why as an outsider and i do not care it just seemed childish and that has just carried on onto other threads

Its not just the dubs Chris, alot of non Dublin members have caused much of the BS that can go on.

It is a small community as so we know peoples personalities, flaws and quirks from playing with them. However this conversation has been about how moderation is performed, not by who it is performed by. Oisin, Rew, Keith and now Rob have served very well over the years, there approach is uniform and fair and allows the conversation to flow and develop, this is all I want from a forum.

Sparks

I think that for fairness' sake, it should be pointed out that some of the OPs points (particularly the situation with non-profit clubs) have been the subject of a lot of discussion with the Mods over the last few weeks. They've hardly been ignoring the issue. But until a solution is reached, it's not like they can just throw the existing rulebook out the window.

In short, they are actually working on it, bear with them.

Puding

Its not just the dubs Chris, alot of non Dublin members have caused much of the BS that can go on.

not of course it is not all about dubs but im sorry but boards is dublin centric and as i said as an outsider from the very last of andy being a mod there seemed to be friction in that area of the community same with master

Oisin, Rew, Keith and now Rob have served very well over the years, there approach is uniform and fair and allows the conversation to flow and develop, this is all I want from a forum.

is users approach reactions and posting uniform towards mods?

i've seen a lot of post be changed and deleted over a long period of time and tbh the response to it comes down to who it is done to more than anything else

fayer

Puding wrote: »

not of course it is not all about dubs but im sorry but boards is dublin centric and as i said as an outsider from the very last of andy being a mod there seemed to be friction in that area of the community same with master



but is users approach reactions and posting uniform towards mods?

Hard to say, we are complaining about a behavior really. As i have said, I am happy with the style of moderation that the lads have offered for the last few years, I just want that to be maintained.

If we have had a change making it acceptable for anonymous edits and post deletes by the mods, I would be happy if we were just told this, it would make me consider making my contributions elsewhere however.

Danin

fayer wrote: »

Its not just the dubs Chris, alot of non Dublin members have caused much of the BS that can go on.

It is a small community as so we know peoples personalities, flaws and quirks from playing with them. However this conversation has been about how moderation is performed, not by who it is performed by. Oisin, Rew, Keith and now Rob have served very well over the years, there approach is uniform and fair and allows the conversation to flow and develop, this is all I want from a forum.

Your right Fayer it's not just in Dublin many people when Airsoft on Boards is mentioned in conversation make the same observation and comments that they do not visit boards anymore as they are of the opinion that there is an agenda or click where airsoft is concerned.

and the censorship of peoples posts without notification gives the impression of "dealing with children attitude" therefore no excuse required. It is wrong regardless how you look at it, we are adults to the most part and as such demand a certain level of mutual respect.

by all means edit a bad post even delete a bad post but inform the person as to why it is bad, don't just assume they know why you've done it and don't leave the edited post giving a completely different impression as to the posters original thoughts.

Deleting posts without notification gives the impression of underhandedness and that's the last impression the moderators would want to give anyone.

Puding

Danin wrote: »

and the censorship of peoples posts without notification gives the impression of "dealing with children attitude" therefore no excuse required. It is wrong regardless how you look at it, we are adults to the most part and as such demand a certain level of mutual respect.

i think people are taking my dublin comment a little to far, it was made because the vast majority of mods and active vocal posters on airsoft in boards are from dublin and the events over the last few weeks of public confrontation on boards have been between people from dublin and as i said as an 'outsider' it appeared that external baggage had been carried over onto boards and effected the relationship between a mod and some users from the start, did not mean to try and say that all issues where dublin related as that is clearly not the case

have to agree 'censorship' is something i would not want to see,i have seen a few posts deleted and tbh there where just silly off topic posts, know this does not mean they should just be deleted without a sensible reason given, but i;ve yet to see anything confirm they have emailed a mod and the answer they got ( or no response response if that is the case but a sensible time frame to allow people to respond is given)

to me things have to be given context, first what post have been removed and what responses have been given for there removal

Gatling

As a longtime poster in Airsoft have to say thses thing all end pretty one sided ,the non profit clubs issue seems to be being worked on by the powers that be ,
as for mods this is now a yearly process oh look new mod in airsoft ,
we a small group of individuals porting to speak on the majority of the communits behalf demand that mods be removed from the forum we have issuse's ,
The master , lemmings and now andy ,

i honestly dont care who mods i dont see why anybody else should, i personally havent seen any post that have been removed or edited and for what reason but if i had a post removed or edited id pm the mod first and take it futher if needs be ,ive been infracted by nearly all the mods in airsoft some boards members even claimed i was hard done by on ocassions ,i always pm a mod and see where i went wrong and if needed apologise,

one thing that seems to be always missed is bullying and and at times the outight abuse of airsoft posters by a small group of posters totaly in plain sight for all to see and yet it gets thanks by the same people time and time again ,
and yet we dont see people posting thread asking for people to be removed from the forum only mods when it dosent suit egos or cliques

well who should moderate ? a member of an elite society ,

an individual who has absolutely no ties to the community that cant be influenced?

choose either one and nobody will be happy

nobody is forcing anybody to post on boards ,if you dont like part or all of boards just tune out and dont post

fayer

Gatling wrote: »

As a longtime poster in Airsoft have to say thses thing all end pretty one sided ,the non profit clubs issue seems to be being worked on by the powers that be ,
as for mods this is now a yearly process oh look new mod in airsoft ,
we a small group of individuals porting to speak on the majority of the communits behalf demand that mods be removed from the forum we have issuse's ,
The master , lemmings and now andy ,

i honestly dont care who mods i dont see why anybody else should, i personally havent seen any post that have been removed or edited and for what reason but if i had a post removed or edited id pm the mod first and take it futher if needs be ,ive been infracted by nearly all the mods in airsoft some boards members even claimed i was hard done by on ocassions ,i always pm a mod and see where i went wrong and if needed apologise,

one thing that seems to be always missed is bullying and and at times the outight abuse of airsoft posters by a small group of posters totaly in plain sight for all to see and yet it gets thanks by the same people time and time again ,
and yet we dont see people posting thread asking for people to be removed from the forum only mods when it dosent suit egos or cliques

well who should moderate ? a member of an elite society ,

an individual who has absolutely no ties to the community that cant be influenced?

choose either one and nobody will be happy

nobody is forcing anybody to post on boards ,if you dont like part or all of boards just tune out and dont post

Sorry Graham I know your here from the very start, but I just dont agree with your points about who and why.

The discussion so far has been in regard of a approach and style of moderation, no one has asked for a mod to be removed, very little people / none of the complainants have mentioned the newest mod, probably out of respect of the fact everyone has to start somewhere and we are only looking for fair and balanced treatment, which is the normal business operation in the forum.

i personally havent seen any post that have been removed or edited

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury I rest my case...... This is our exact point, they have been removed and edited and no one knows they have, our words and context have been altered. The edit post looks like its our statement its in its entirety.

If mods are allowed change the context of our statements where is the line on this? How far of a context change will boards allow a mod to make? If the context change or the edit makes the statement untrue, libelous (extreme) are they taking over the responsibility for the words?

The moving of a comma can change a statement from opinion to fact, no liable to libelous. This is the extreme of the current topic.

Danin

Puding wrote: »

i think people are taking my dublin comment a little to far, it was made beacuse the vast majority of mods and active vocal posters on airsoft in boards are from dublin and the events over the last few weeks of public confrontation on boards have been between people from dublin and as i said as an 'outsider' it appeared that external baggage had been carried over onto boards and effected the relationship between a mod and some users from the start, did not mean to try and say that all issues where dublin related as that is clearly not the case

have to agree 'censorship' is something i would not want to see,i have seen a few posts deleted and tbh there where just silly off topic posts, know this does not mean they should just be deleted without a sensible reason given, but i;ve yet to see anything confirm they have emailed a mod and the answer they got ( or no response response if that is the case but a sensible time frame to allow people to respond is given)

to me things have to be given context, first what post have been removed and what responses have been given for there removal

TBH Puding I could give a few valid examples but for the sake of not singling out one or two mods over others and the tread/debate going of topic I think it best to leave it as a general comment.

As it stands this issue has been taking place over a lot of treads to a lot of people in the Airsoft forum

Dont get me wrong I'm not trying to shy away from naming anyone it's just I think it would lead to a witch hunt of sorts which is not what we want the debate to turn into..

Shiva

I've always felt that the airsoft forum (maybe others too, but I dont frequent them, so I wont comment) is a dynamic community, that evolves and flows freely, or at least should be allowed too. I think DeVore has a similar philosophy with the entire raison d'etre for Boards.ie.

Sometimes though, that philosophy is forgotten, and the strict, often anal enforcement of rules is carried out, simply because it can be enforced, and not that it needs to be.

For example...a new topic will be posted, discussion ensues, and inevitably, as with any discussion, the discussion will take a new turn, and will often leave the original point of discussion behind. And then it can be locked, or posts deleted with the "Stay on topic" mantra.

Granted, if a thread goes wildly off-topic and arguments and abuse creep in, a mod needs to step in and moderate the discussion. However, if it stays a civil discussion and no-one is hurling or receiving abuse, whats the harm in it going off-topic ? Thats a natural outcome of any discussion - its organic and free-flowing. I often feel the "Stay on Topic" hammer is wielded simply because a mod feels he can use it, rather than he should.
This is especially relevant when so many of the contributors know each other personally - compare it if you will, to a discussion around a table in a pub among friends. There will always be banter and sidetracking.

Because of the nature of the airsoft forum, in that a lot of us know each other personally and meet up regularly in sites around the country, I think it only rarely needs to be moderated - instead, it just needs maintenance.

We see two old chestnuts being bandied around to justify over-moderation and even (although I hesitate to use the term) abuse of moderator status - "The mods are volunteers, and do all this work for free" and "Theres no free speech on boards."

I agree with both statements, but with two qualifications -

- If you step into a thread and over-moderate it simply because you can, you're creating more work for yourself, and possibly drawing criticism. The "I'm a volunteer" defense loses credibility if you're the cause of the problem.

- I agree there needs to be rules to protect Boards.ie, and the members, but stifling genuine discussion or input using the "no free speech" argument means that when it needs to be genuinely applied, this too loses credibility.
The moderators of any forum are not the sum of the forum, as someone already pointed out. The users and contributors to a forum are what makes it successful or not, and the more useful contributors who are driven away by over-moderation, the less popular and relevant the forum becomes.

Sparks

fayer wrote: »

If the context change or the edit makes the statement untrue, libelous (extreme) are they taking over the responsibility for the words?

Actually, yes. Ordinary posters can't see the edits, but mods and admins can, and in the event of a libel suit, that information would be immediately disclosed. Which is why no mod is ever going to edit a post to make it defamatory. I've never even seen an edit on any forum that even comes close to trying that. It's always the other way around, or because someone is breaking a rule and the choice was (a) delete the entire post or (b) edit out the offence and leave the remainder of the point the poster was trying to make. A quick look over some of the edits made in the last day or so reveals that the latter has been the case - there's been nothing edited I can find that wasn't abusive.

edit: In point of fact, a quick review shows a lot of abuse towards the mods being left untouched while abuse towards other posters is being edited. That doesn't reflect well on the community to an outside observer.

Puding

Danin wrote: »

TBH Puding I could give a few valid examples but for the sake of not singling out one or two mods over others and the tread/debate going of topic I think it best to leave it as a general comment.

As it stands this issue has been taking place over a lot of treads to a lot of people in the Airsoft forum

Dont get me wrong I'm not trying to shy away from naming anyone it's just I think it would lead to a witch hunt of sorts which is not what we want the debate to turn into..

i can understand that, the problem is the mud has already been thrown at one mod already and stuff like this can have the habit of turning into a lynch mob rather than constructive, i hear a lot about all these threads and post, personally have only seen 2 threads and 3 posts removed and this where offtopic, this could be a issue for private between mods and users but the number and type of post need in my eyes to be layed out, and what responses where given as to why they where removed layed out, at the moment only one side of the story is being laid out

Gatling

i havent been here from the very start ,but long enough to see the forum go from a shared paintball forum to what we know as today ,an incredible mix of threads and people from a few regular posters to 100's of regular posters,
from sanity to all out madness,

balance is never going to be perfect and there will never be harmony ,

at times airsoft on boards has been almost a nightmare for mods weve all been guilty of braking the charter at somestage or another ,im the first to admit it though never intensionaly meant to cause offence to anybody

as i said evey airsoft mod has been accussed of abusing power or upsetting the wrong crowd

including kdouglas O1s1n and rew included the mods i mentioned in my last post thats all the mods we have had, people moaning about how they do there job,
mob mentality is the wrong way of doing things we want ,we get, or else

all our mods are truely genuine and honest blokes and yet they take more and put up with more than they should have to ,

Danin

Gatling wrote: »

,
i personally havent seen any post that have been removed or edited and for what reason

No Offence Gatling but you dont see them because they are deleted and no one is notified therefore the poster cannot highlight the issue.

Gatling wrote: »

one thing that seems to be always missed is bullying and and at times the outight abuse of airsoft posters by a small group of posters totaly in plain sight for all to see and yet it gets thanks by the same people time and time again ,
and yet we dont see people posting thread asking for people to be removed from the forum only mods when it dosent suit egos or cliques

egos or cliques are at best directed at both factions of the debate and censorship is a form of bullying

Gatling wrote: »

well who should moderate ? a member of an elite society ,

It could be agrued that certain moderators regard being a moderator as an elite members club.

Gatling wrote: »

nobody is forcing anybody to post on boards ,if you dont like part or all of boards just tune out and dont post

how can you say that mate, your right no one is forced to post on boards but by the same rational no one should be "Bullied" out of posting because they have a difference of opinion.
It's a very sweeping statement to say "just don't post" but then are we going down the road of turn the other cheek or a version of cold war communism.

fayer

Sparks wrote: »

A quick look over some of the edits made in the last day or so reveals that the latter has been the case - there's been nothing edited I can find that wasn't abusive.

Can you tell me what was abusive about the post by TheDoc in this thread that was deleted?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055756778

I have heard this spoken about, haven't seen the original post, if it is abuse all well and good, ether way it still go back to the main point of moderation style, deleting posts, even abusive ones with no warning, PM, notification in thread or infractions?

Sparks

fayer wrote: »

Can you tell me what was abusive about the post by TheDoc in this thread that was deleted?

No, because that's between TheDoc and the mods. If they both want to talk about it in public, that's up to them.

deleting posts, even abusive ones with no warning, PM, notification in thread or infractions?

That is the normal way to do things, you realise? If an abusive post is posted, it gets deleted without prior notice. And after that point, it's a matter between the poster and the mods. It's not like the site could work if poster A could abuse poster B and the mods had to issue a warning before deleting the abuse - it'd be a licence to put the boot in and make the first kick count!

gerrowadat

Sparks wrote: »

No, because that's between TheDoc and the mods. If they both want to talk about it in public, that's up to them.

I also had a post deleted on that thread, and I'd like to talk about it in public. If my post breached a charter, I'd like to be infracted, and if it didn't I'd like it reinstated.

I don't know which mod to PM because I don't know who deleted it. I can't link to the post because it's gone.

Sparks

gerrowadat wrote: »

I don't know which mod to PM because I don't know who deleted it. I can't link to the post because it's gone.

Then PM any of them. All mods can see who edited what.