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The Catholic / Protestant Debate Megathread

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I would ask any non-Catholic why contraception is not in any way sinful and why therefore we shouldn't worry about it.

    For the same reason that eating pizza is not sinful - it is not addressed in Scripture, and non-Catholics don't recognise the right of the Vatican to set arbitrary rules for the rest of us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    There isn't much point in consulting websites. Look and see what the Scriptural case is for yourself.

    The thing is I have and when I compare the Catholic position with that of the protestant one on matters of difference all I can see is that the Catholic position is the true one and the protestant one is a fabrication based on lies, modified scriptural test, misinterpretation and eisgegesis.

    Orestes Brownson was correct. There is nothing you can show me that would make me doubt my trust in the Catholic Church.

    There may be elements you disagree with - you want a divorce, you want a responsibility free sex life, you want to be a married priest, whatever - if have you believe it is serious enough to prevent anyone from having the fullest possible relationship with Jesus you owe it to the Christian community at large to advise where Christians are going wrong or you cannot say you ever met the evangelical instruction in Matthew 28:19,20 (NIV) and Mark 16:15 (KJV) and were more than happy to let your brothers fall into sin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    There may be elements you disagree with - you want a divorce, you want a responsibility free sex life, you want to be a married priest, whatever - if have you believe it is serious enough to prevent anyone from having the fullest possible relationship with Jesus you owe it to the Christian community at large to advise where Christians are going wrong or you cannot say you ever met the evangelical instruction in Matthew 28:19,20 (NIV) and Mark 16:15 (KJV) and were more than happy to let your brothers fall into sin.

    It's nothing to do with my own personal desires. Rather it has much more to do with how Scripture is read and applied in my daily life. I explained to you already why I am a member of another denomination of Christianity than you are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Scripture

    Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

    Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

    Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

    Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

    Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

    Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

    Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

    Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

    Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

    Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

    Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

    1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

    Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

    Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.

    Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.

    Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.

    Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.

    Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.

    Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

    Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

    1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

    1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning ("NFP"). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.

    Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

    Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.

    Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.

    1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

    Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.

    Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with my own personal desires. Rather it has much more to do with how Scripture is read and applied in my daily life. I explained to you already why I am a member of another denomination of Christianity than you are.

    Then you must believe your denomination is the only true one or the correct one and everyone else is wrong.

    Do you not want everyone to be saved?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    That's three topics so far.......:( on day One!

    PDN, if everybody is inline with the Charter out in the great peaceful beyonds in future, please please please consider this mega merge...

    When we die with venial sin on our souls God cleanses them and we can be forgiven for them and enter heaven.

    If we have mortal sin on our souls then God respects that we didn't want to partake of his Grace and rejected him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Then you must believe your denomination is the only true one or the correct one and everyone else is wrong.

    I don't know where you got that theory from, it certainly doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. I've met a lot of Christians outside of the denomination that I attend that have helped me on tremendously in my faith. A few of those people actually post on this forum.

    The truth of Christianity is not confined within a single denomination, it is manifested in the entire Christian community.
    Do you not want everyone to be saved?

    I want everyone to know Jesus, irrespective of what church they happen to go to.

    As for copying and pasting references from a website, please keep that to a minimum. I'd like to hear your own original arguments far beyond anything you can google.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    PDN wrote: »
    For the same reason that eating pizza is not sinful - it is not addressed in Scripture, and non-Catholics don't recognise the right of the Vatican to set arbitrary rules for the rest of us.

    Oh yes it is...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You've read on another thread, that I don't think Genesis 38 is in reference to contraceptives, but to the failure of Onan to fulfil his ancestral duty to his brothers widow. That's the context of the passage.

    yes we did that - his duty was to provide a child and he contra-cepted.

    and got killed for it.

    if we contracept we die in the next life in Hell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Scripture

    Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

    Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

    Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.

    Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

    Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

    Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

    Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

    Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

    Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

    Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

    Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

    1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

    Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

    Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.

    Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.

    Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.

    Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.

    Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.

    Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

    Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

    1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

    1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning ("NFP"). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.

    Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

    Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.

    Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.

    1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

    Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.

    Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

    The vast majority of those verses (the ones enjoining people to be fruitful) can be used against celibacy just as much as against contraception. In fact a guy like myself (who fathered two kids and then practised birth control) has done much more to populate the earth than a celibate. :)

    As for the references to "pharmakeia" - they can just as well be used to condemn taking paracetamol. A painkiller tablet is much more pharmaceutical than a condom.

    The poor logic, twisted reasoning, and tortuous eisegesis you have given us isn't exactly going to win anyone over to your cause.

    I'm thinking this thread is going the way of the Creationism one. :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    yes we did that - his duty was to provide a child and he contra-cepted.

    and got killed for it.

    if we contracept we die in the next life in Hell.

    You're ignoring the context. Onan, clearly and intentionally disobeyed God in not providing a child for his deceased brother's widow. This doesn't refer to all circumstances, but rather the specific circumstances of performing his ancestral duty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Then you must believe your denomination is the only true one or the correct one and everyone else is wrong.

    Do you not want everyone to be saved?

    That makes no sense at all.

    We believe salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, not being in the right denomination. Denominations are useful - but none of them are perfect - and there are good faithful Christians serving God in many different churches and denominations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Salvation happens in this life. I think Christian eschatology is a little more complicated than what you would have us believe.

    I suggest that the early Christians didn't believe that getting into heaven was the ultimate goal and that following Christ was somehow the means by how one got there. Instead, they were firmly fixed on the idea of renewal through Christ - both of the self in terms of salvation in this life and of all creation in terms of the ultimate hope for a new heavens and a new earth.

    we're not talking the end of the world here, just what happens when we die.
    Fact of the matter is no-one knows they are saved until they are dead.

    Salvation from the death of the body is not possible in this life. We all have to die.

    Salvation from sin is a possibility but you have to be a saint. We're all sinners and many of us don't even know when we sin so for the vast majority of us salvation form sin is not possible either.

    p.s. most saints were sinners too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    PDN wrote: »
    The vast majority of those verses (the ones enjoining people to be fruitful) can be used against celibacy just as much as against contraception. In fact a guy like myself (who fathered two kids and then practised birth control) has done much more to populate the earth than a celibate. :)

    As for the references to "pharmakeia" - they can just as well be used to condemn taking paracetamol. A painkiller tablet is much more pharmaceutical than a condom.

    The poor logic, twisted reasoning, and tortuous eisegesis you have given us isn't exactly going to win anyone over to your cause.

    So you still do not agree that the Bible has a lot of support for having children and none for having sex without having children (contraception)
    PDN wrote: »
    I'm thinking this thread is going the way of the Creationism one. :(

    This thread was your baby. Wanna kill it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that all people from other denominations will defo 'not' be saved...the same way as it doesn't teach all Catholics 'will' be saved. It is simply the narrow route to being saved, and most of all because we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism and Confirmation of our faith, and obviously, Christ himself in the Eucharist to strengthen us..



    We do know, and common sense even tells us that with knowledge comes responsibility..


    There are some requirements that are very clear from Scripture and tradition, some groups are more liberal than the Catholic church in so far as contraception etc. is concerned...and will argue till the second coming over the Churchs stance. However, one has to remember that Catholics go by the moral code of the church and see the logic of it in Scripture, even if others don't....every verse counts, not just the ones we want to see..With respect, it's not 'our' plan we're trying to live.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Fact of the matter is no-one knows they are saved until they are dead.

    Is it a fact?
    Is it not possible that God can give His followers assurance of salvation through Jesus Christ?
    Salvation from sin is a possibility but you have to be a saint. We're all sinners and many of us don't even know when we sin so for the vast majority of us salvation form sin is not possible either.

    Interesting concept. However, Paul referred to the members of the church as the saints. For example in Colossae:
    To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭smurfhousing


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I would hold that it is not sinful within marriage, as contraceptives themselves aren't explicitly prohibited.
    Personal judgement of what is right and wrong.
    PDN wrote: »
    For the same reason that eating pizza is not sinful - it is not addressed in Scripture, and non-Catholics don't recognise the right of the Vatican to set arbitrary rules for the rest of us.
    There are a lot of things that are sinful that are not condemned in Scripture. As it happens, it is condemned, you just don't want to see it.
    PDN wrote: »
    The vast majority of those verses (the ones enjoining people to be fruitful) can be used against celibacy just as much as against contraception. In fact a guy like myself (who fathered two kids and then practised birth control) has done much more to populate the earth than a celibate. :)

    As for the references to "pharmakeia" - they can just as well be used to condemn taking paracetamol. A painkiller tablet is much more pharmaceutical than a condom.

    The poor logic, twisted reasoning, and tortuous eisegesis you have given us isn't exactly going to win anyone over to your cause.

    I'm thinking this thread is going the way of the Creationism one. :(

    You know, one of the distinguishing features of the first Christians was their rejection of the hedonistic and immoral practices of the pagan culture around them, and this included their refusal to engage in contraceptive and abortive practices.

    These few quotes from early Church Fathers show that contraception was rejected as being disordered, immoral and lustful.
    Tradition / Church Fathers

    "Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" Letter of Barnabas 10:8 (A.D. 74).

    "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 (A.D. 191).

    "[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife." Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 (A.D. 307).

    "God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.” Lactantius, Divine 6:23:18 (A.D. 307).

    "They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." Epiphanius of Salamis, Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 (A.D. 375).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You're ignoring the context. Onan, clearly and intentionally disobeyed God in not providing a child for his deceased brother's widow. This doesn't refer to all circumstances, but rather the specific circumstances of performing his ancestral duty.

    Note the emphasis.

    I was previously adminished for ignoring Deuteronomy in regards to this and now I have to take this without reference to the circumstances.

    make your mind up - it's either about breaking the law or contraception.

    Luther was very clear this was about contraception, as was Calvin - previously discussed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    So you still do not agree that the Bible has a lot of support for having children and none for having sex without having children (contraception)

    And I have children, more so than celibates who are ignoring all the verses you quoted.

    It doesn't support eating pizza - so it stands in the same light biblically as having sex without having children (although pizza is marginally less enjoyable).
    This thread was your baby. Wanna kill it
    Not at all. The rest of the forum is smellling sweeter already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Luther was very clear this was about contraception, as was Calvin - previously discussed.

    Luther and Calvin are not unquestionable authorities.
    So you still do not agree that the Bible has a lot of support for having children and none for having sex without having children (contraception)

    You do realise that not all unprotected sex will bring forth children?
    Another point, should married couples only have sex with the wife is ovulating or can it happen when she is not? If planned correctly, it is possible not to conceive this way either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that all people from other denominations will defo 'not' be saved...the same way as it doesn't teach all Catholics 'will' be saved. It is simply the narrow route to being saved, and most of all because we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism and Confirmation of our faith, and obviously, Christ himself in the Eucharist to strengthen us..



    We do know, and common sense even tells us that with knowledge comes responsibility..


    There are some requirements that are very clear from Scripture and tradition, some groups are more liberal than the Catholic church in so far as contraception etc. is concerned...and will argue till the second coming over the Churchs stance. However, one has to remember that Catholics go by the moral code of the church and see the logic of it in Scripture, even if others don't....every verse counts, not just the ones we want to see..With respect, it's not 'our' plan we're trying to live.....


    You are quite right -

    The "Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions: Nostra Aetate," (1965) is one of three declarations of Vatican II. 8 It states that:
    "[The Christian] God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth."
    "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these [non-Christian] religions."
    "God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers..."
    "...the [Roman Catholic] Church is the new People of God..."
    "...the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation."

    The issue then is are there non-Christian religions that hold to untruths or unholiness, which by extension could be argued cover all religions that hold to untruths or unholiness

    I have no doubt that there are good Christian non-Catholics, however one must ask if there are non-Catholic churches or denominations that allow or encourage persistence in sin through ignorance or by misrepresentation.
    Contraception, divorce, adultery, fornication and homosexuality are obvious choices here.

    It is interesting to note that because other denominations do not hold contraception and divorce with the same abhorrence that Catholics do, that they also generally ignore co-habitation and same-sex liaisons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭smurfhousing


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Luther and Calvin are not unquestionable authorities.

    And yet... you somehow are? Since you appear to have cast aside 2000 years of constant Christian teaching on this matter of contraception to come to your own conclusion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    And yet... you somehow are? Since you appear to have cast aside 2000 years of constant Christian teaching on this matter of contraception to come to your own conclusion.
    I'm not unquestionable either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    It is interesting to note that because other denominations do not hold contraception and divorce with the same abhorrence that Catholics do, that they also generally ignore co-habitation and same-sex liaisons.

    That is a total falsehood. The vast majority of non-Catholic denominations have strict rules prohibiting their members from engaging in pre-marital, extra-marital, or homosexual relations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Luther and Calvin are not unquestionable authorities.

    So who is for this issue? If we decide for ourselves we are ignoring God.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You do realise that not all unprotected sex will bring forth children?
    Another point, should married couples only have sex with the wife is ovulating or can it happen when she is not? If planned correctly, it is possible not to conceive this way either.

    Of course - fully up to speed with NFP and cervical mucosa methodologies.

    No issue with the Church here as it does not break the unitive bond either physically or chemically.

    When we decide to deliberately interfere with one of Gods gifts we are flirting with disaster.
    Since the Pill was invented abortion, divorce, unwanted pregnancy, stds have all increased and now it is next to impossible for anyone but a priest to stand up and say fornication is wrong. Sex before marriage is wrong, sex outside of marriage is wrong.

    Now there is evidence to support the concept that the pill increases a womans chance of acquiring HIV. Is this all over the newspapers yet? And why isn't it?

    Artificial Contraception is bad bad news but no one wants to hear it or listen


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    PDN, it's not fair to say the rest of the forum is smelling sweeter...It's silly, silly, silly, to have this thread only on the Roman Catholic faith..

    The forum is meant to be for Christians..

    Can we discuss at least some of these topics outside, in light of the charter and maybe even one by one..lol....even if there is only 'one' a week or something so as not to overflow the forum? If there is an interest - which apparently there is in discussing these things from people of other denominations such as yourself and Jackass and Fanny (very briefly) to discuss it.....why not outside?

    This is turning into a play with topics thread...and it's not productive to anybody..

    Please either stick something in the Charter for us to 'abide' by or else don't imprison all RC faith related topics to one thread...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭smurfhousing


    PDN wrote: »
    That is a total falsehood. The vast majority of non-Catholic denominations have strict rules prohibiting their members from engaging in pre-marital, extra-marital, or homosexual relations.

    And yet, PDN, the reason we have the mess (Ireland having just approved of legally recognizing sodomitic relationships, according to my sources), is in no small part due to contraception.

    Separate sex from procreation (with contraception) and you find a good argument for sodomy and masturbation. If sex doesn't have to be about babies, then why can't two men/women or a single person engage in sexual activity? Why should heterosexual couples be allowed and these other groups not? If sex and procreation can be separated, then you can hardly object to other people taking advantage.

    Perhaps somebody might stick their neck out and make so much as a comment about my post on the Church Fathers...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭StealthRolex


    PDN wrote: »
    That is a total falsehood. The vast majority of non-Catholic denominations have strict rules prohibiting their members from engaging in pre-marital, extra-marital, or homosexual relations.

    Glad to hear it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    lmaopml - It isn't putting all RC topics into one thread. It's putting all RC / Protestant disputes and debates into this thread, and thus cleaning up the main forum.

    StealthRolex - The spread of HIV doesn't happen because of contraceptives, but rather due to having sexual relations outside of marriage, or in marriage with multiple partners.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    I thought you said you weren't a Protestant? and neither is PDN etc.

    What's this all about...

    it's stupid imo.


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