smurfhousing wrote: » I would ask any non-Catholic why contraception is not in any way sinful and why therefore we shouldn't worry about it.
Jakkass wrote: » There isn't much point in consulting websites. Look and see what the Scriptural case is for yourself.
StealthRolex wrote: » There may be elements you disagree with - you want a divorce, you want a responsibility free sex life, you want to be a married priest, whatever - if have you believe it is serious enough to prevent anyone from having the fullest possible relationship with Jesus you owe it to the Christian community at large to advise where Christians are going wrong or you cannot say you ever met the evangelical instruction in Matthew 28:19,20 (NIV) and Mark 16:15 (KJV) and were more than happy to let your brothers fall into sin.
Jakkass wrote: » It's nothing to do with my own personal desires. Rather it has much more to do with how Scripture is read and applied in my daily life. I explained to you already why I am a member of another denomination of Christianity than you are.
StealthRolex wrote: » Then you must believe your denomination is the only true one or the correct one and everyone else is wrong.
StealthRolex wrote: » Do you not want everyone to be saved?
PDN wrote: » For the same reason that eating pizza is not sinful - it is not addressed in Scripture, and non-Catholics don't recognise the right of the Vatican to set arbitrary rules for the rest of us.
Jakkass wrote: » You've read on another thread, that I don't think Genesis 38 is in reference to contraceptives, but to the failure of Onan to fulfil his ancestral duty to his brothers widow. That's the context of the passage.
StealthRolex wrote: » Scripture Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself. Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God. Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground. Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed. Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed. Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death. Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy. Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error). Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil. Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law. Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law. 1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done." Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide. Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse. Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity. Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness. Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God. Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life. Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld. Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage. 1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will. 1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning ("NFP"). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally. Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life. Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving. Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth. 1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace. Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman. Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.
StealthRolex wrote: » yes we did that - his duty was to provide a child and he contra-cepted. and got killed for it. if we contracept we die in the next life in Hell.
StealthRolex wrote: » Then you must believe your denomination is the only true one or the correct one and everyone else is wrong. Do you not want everyone to be saved?
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Salvation happens in this life. I think Christian eschatology is a little more complicated than what you would have us believe. I suggest that the early Christians didn't believe that getting into heaven was the ultimate goal and that following Christ was somehow the means by how one got there. Instead, they were firmly fixed on the idea of renewal through Christ - both of the self in terms of salvation in this life and of all creation in terms of the ultimate hope for a new heavens and a new earth.
PDN wrote: » The vast majority of those verses (the ones enjoining people to be fruitful) can be used against celibacy just as much as against contraception. In fact a guy like myself (who fathered two kids and then practised birth control) has done much more to populate the earth than a celibate. As for the references to "pharmakeia" - they can just as well be used to condemn taking paracetamol. A painkiller tablet is much more pharmaceutical than a condom. The poor logic, twisted reasoning, and tortuous eisegesis you have given us isn't exactly going to win anyone over to your cause.
PDN wrote: » I'm thinking this thread is going the way of the Creationism one.
StealthRolex wrote: » Fact of the matter is no-one knows they are saved until they are dead.
StealthRolex wrote: » Salvation from sin is a possibility but you have to be a saint. We're all sinners and many of us don't even know when we sin so for the vast majority of us salvation form sin is not possible either.
Colossians 1:2 wrote: To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae:
Jakkass wrote: » I would hold that it is not sinful within marriage, as contraceptives themselves aren't explicitly prohibited.
PDN wrote: » The vast majority of those verses (the ones enjoining people to be fruitful) can be used against celibacy just as much as against contraception. In fact a guy like myself (who fathered two kids and then practised birth control) has done much more to populate the earth than a celibate. As for the references to "pharmakeia" - they can just as well be used to condemn taking paracetamol. A painkiller tablet is much more pharmaceutical than a condom. The poor logic, twisted reasoning, and tortuous eisegesis you have given us isn't exactly going to win anyone over to your cause. I'm thinking this thread is going the way of the Creationism one.
Tradition / Church Fathers "Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" Letter of Barnabas 10:8 (A.D. 74). "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 (A.D. 191). "[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife." Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 (A.D. 307). "God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.” Lactantius, Divine 6:23:18 (A.D. 307)."They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." Epiphanius of Salamis, Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 (A.D. 375).
Jakkass wrote: » You're ignoring the context. Onan, clearly and intentionally disobeyed God in not providing a child for his deceased brother's widow. This doesn't refer to all circumstances, but rather the specific circumstances of performing his ancestral duty.
StealthRolex wrote: » So you still do not agree that the Bible has a lot of support for having children and none for having sex without having children (contraception)
This thread was your baby. Wanna kill it
StealthRolex wrote: » Luther was very clear this was about contraception, as was Calvin - previously discussed.
StealhRolex wrote: So you still do not agree that the Bible has a lot of support for having children and none for having sex without having children (contraception)
lmaopml wrote: » I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that all people from other denominations will defo 'not' be saved...the same way as it doesn't teach all Catholics 'will' be saved. It is simply the narrow route to being saved, and most of all because we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism and Confirmation of our faith, and obviously, Christ himself in the Eucharist to strengthen us.. We do know, and common sense even tells us that with knowledge comes responsibility.. There are some requirements that are very clear from Scripture and tradition, some groups are more liberal than the Catholic church in so far as contraception etc. is concerned...and will argue till the second coming over the Churchs stance. However, one has to remember that Catholics go by the moral code of the church and see the logic of it in Scripture, even if others don't....every verse counts, not just the ones we want to see..With respect, it's not 'our' plan we're trying to live.....
Jakkass wrote: » Luther and Calvin are not unquestionable authorities.
smurfhousing wrote: » And yet... you somehow are? Since you appear to have cast aside 2000 years of constant Christian teaching on this matter of contraception to come to your own conclusion.
StealthRolex wrote: » It is interesting to note that because other denominations do not hold contraception and divorce with the same abhorrence that Catholics do, that they also generally ignore co-habitation and same-sex liaisons.
Jakkass wrote: » You do realise that not all unprotected sex will bring forth children? Another point, should married couples only have sex with the wife is ovulating or can it happen when she is not? If planned correctly, it is possible not to conceive this way either.
PDN wrote: » That is a total falsehood. The vast majority of non-Catholic denominations have strict rules prohibiting their members from engaging in pre-marital, extra-marital, or homosexual relations.
