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PC games, The end is nigh... is it?

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    #32
    Monotype
    Registered Users Posts: 6,710 ✭✭✭Monotype


    Dytalus wrote: »
    No need to update the technology, no need to install your games or preserve hard drive space

    Those aren't really true any more.


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    #33
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Dara Robinson wrote: »
    Theif II and Deus Ex, 2 of the best games I ever played.

    Two amazing games from the old days, Thief and Deus Ex, was gutted when Through The Looking Glass went out of business.

    Really hope they don't mess up Thief 4, no details at all yet what its like! Hopefully it will be as good as the 1st two. 3rd was good, but not a patch on the 1st two.
    Jazzy wrote: »
    im liking dara robinson. his ideas intrigue me and i wish to subscribe to his newsletter

    Here! Here!


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    #34
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    We need more innovation. wii and Kinect are a step forward but we need more. Whatever happened to virtual reality? We should all be putting on helmets and "jacking in".


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    #35
    Shiminay
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 28,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shiminay


    You know what'd really put a nail in the coffin for PC gaming? Native Keyboard and Mouse controlling support for consoles. FPS would suddenly become properly playable for those of us who didn't grow up on Halo and Strategy games would finally be a viable option for consoles.

    I don't mind the controllers on my 360 though, they're not bad - I feel more or less the same about the PS3. I miss games mods - how many of us have stuck at a game because someone came up with a cool new idea for it? QuakeWorld, Counter Strike, Day of Defeat, DoTA, etc - all mods and all top notch stuff. It's just not accessible to do these things for Consoles and anyway, the companies behind some of the bigger games aren't interested in letting you have at it anymore anyway.

    Games are a lot shorter (it seems) than they used to be. RDR even felt short for the sort of game it is now that I'm thinking about it. Seems like I got through it in no time and I don't really expect to get more than 1 or 2 days out of the single player of most of what I buy anymore. Multi-player can't be the only way to keep you interested - see the mods stuff above :)

    However, as someone else mentioned above, it does seem to be about just doing enough work getting the next title out as quick as possible without it being a flop these days and to be fair, that's not just in gaming. I'd say that extends to a lot of society in general - we're expected to be good consumers and consumers need product, so why wouldn't they just keep giving us what we want?


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    #36
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,106 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I think theres a bit more to it than keyboard and mice. Again with Open Platform. Its great that on a console you can get a homogenous gaming experience from one person to the next but there will be always be a crowd out there that wants to have their own customizable platform. And people are already doing that with consoles; the only difference is they're being stopped at every turn from doing so.

    I mean, what if I don't like the voice chat on Games for Windows Live/Xbox Live? On an Xbox, aren't you f*cked? Whereas on a PC I can just get my friends on a private Ventrilo or Mumble server if thats what I want to do.

    Its that ever-expansive kind of versatility that a closed platform will never compete with. Though from what I hear wasnt Xbox starting to over in-game overlay for game guides and ****? How much time did that take and how many people did they have to pull off other projects just so they could code the console version of Alt+Tab and Firefox? I mean even the little things, look how slow companies like Netflix are to be able to get their service onto console in the same way they have it on PC. Last time I used an xbox you had to use a PC to add the movie to your queue before you could go to your xbox and watch the ****ing thing.


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    #37
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    "You know what'd really put a nail in the coffin for PC gaming? Native Keyboard and Mouse controlling support for consoles."

    Would it, though? I suppose there are people who have their XBox/whatever connected to a monitor at a desk, but for most, it's a couch affair. It might sway some people, but kill the PC gaming market? Doubt it, specially as most of those who game on PC do so because the variety of games on the PC differ to consoles (I've absolutely no interest in sports games, very little in racing games).

    At the end of the day, I really doubt that PC gaming is going away until the PC itself dies. Does it have less of a percentage of the entire market share? Yes, definitely, but hardly surprising considering the competition and how cheap consoles are these days. But it's still a platform where small innovative developers can launch their products without the need for a distributor or paying licence fees.

    Despite the fact that Macs are expensive, a niche market and not upgradable, there's still a Mac game market, for example; big enough that Valve have ported their back-collection to the Mac and launched Steam for OSX.

    P.


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    #38
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    Not sure if keyboard and mouse would work on consoles with tv's? The idea of a controller is that You can relax on the couch 6 feet from the tv, with kb & m You need to be upright and would need a desk for the kb & m. Very few console gamers play on a monitor

    BTW, I forgot myself earlier, I do play with a controller. I use a TrackIR for Arma2, now there immersion a console can never ever give (and a vibrant modding community) making it the saving grace for pc gaming for me at the moment, the only game worth upgrading my pc for.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ


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    #39
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    PogMoThoin, would you mind listing out all the games you've played in the last 2 years? I'd like to know if you actually play a lot of games that consoles and PCs have to offer, or if you just dismiss a lot of the (first on) console games immediately.

    Maybe the current generation of games aren't to your particular liking (just as I don't like FPS games) but that doesn't mean that there aren't current-gen games are deep/have substance/enjoyable beyond the scope of 12 year olds. (I'm 27 by the way.)

    Would you agree that online matchups (like in Street Fighter) might stop a game from becoming "too easy"? (There's always an American online that can beat my ass)


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    #40
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    PogMoThoin, would you mind listing out all the games you've played in the last 2 years? I'd like to know if you actually play a lot of games that consoles and PCs have to offer, or if you just dismiss a lot of the (first on) console games immediately.

    Maybe the current generation of games aren't to your particular liking (just as I don't like FPS games) but that doesn't mean that there aren't current-gen games are deep/have substance/enjoyable beyond the scope of 12 year olds. (I'm 27 by the way.)

    Would you agree that online matchups (like in Street Fighter) might stop a game from becoming "too easy"? (There's always an American online that can beat my ass)


    Yeah, I will do when i get back to my pc. You'll be very suprised, I install lots, but rarely finish


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    #41
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    oceanclub wrote: »
    http://play.tm/news/29605/pachter-pc-gaming-in-decline/


    http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3178044



    I'd never heard of the guy before; coming from a country where property market analysts were all wrong, it's quite possible this analyst is talking nonsense too:

    http://www.bingegamer.net/2009/who-the-****-is-michael-pachter/

    Steam does not release sales figures. Unless this guy is lowering himself Tom Cruise styles down air-vents in Valve HQ, he doesn't know either.

    P.

    Thanks for replying! First and third links don't work. Is this my connection?

    I'm wager that since America has the most reporters/analysts from games that we read about, it'd have the most people that are wrong about some things. At least he admitted he was wrong - and has repeatedly referenced it on his segment on GT. Just because something risky bucks the trend (like Dragon Age being successful) doesn't mean it was a bad prediction. He's just going by what he knows. And since he's made a fortune off it, i'd tend to believe his word over people who don't make a living doing it.

    Like i'd tend to take Trump's opinion on business more heavily than the guys who made Soda Stream!


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    #42
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Yeah, I will do when i get back to my pc. You'll be very suprised, I install lots, but rarely finish

    if you have the time, if you could include a short note about what you liked/didn't like on each game that'd be awesome.


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    #43
    elnino35
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭elnino35


    I am also a fan of PC gaming, particulary the football/champ manager series of games(very addictive!)....but the problem for most people is not having the required specifications to run the game properly, due to larger demands on ram, processor speeds etc...this is especially true of the footy manger 10 game, which requires a minimum 2.0ghz processor amongst other things.This in turn means many people can't run the games on laptops,(2 friends of mine can't play it) and is losing a lot of potential gamers, who don't want to upgrade their system just to play a game!! I myself upgraded last year so I could have the minimum requirements needed, and with the new release of FM 11 out in a couple of months, I dread to think of what spec will be required this time around:eek:...this is a problem that console gamers don't really face, it's more or less just plug and play straight from the box with a huge variety of games to choose from( good and bad!!), and a hell of lot less hassle.
    In summary PC games are more inventive and you can definitely immerse yourself in one more so than a console game, but I think people are switching away because of these problems.


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    #44
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    He's just going by what he knows. And since he's made a fortune off it, i'd tend to believe his word over people who don't make a living doing it.

    By that logic, everyone should have listened to Liz O'Kane's views on the property market for the past decade rather than independent amateur predictors of the bubble collapse. :)

    It's quite possible that this guy is right more times than he is wrong and hence has made money, but has a blind spot for the PC market. The fact is, he doesn't know the figure for Steam sales. Many analysts like him still pay attention to games charts compiled solely from over-the-counter retail, which probably gives a relatively accurate reading for console games but is useless for PC.

    For example, every week, the Guardian publishes such a chart (by GfK Chart Track) which is worse than useless as it entirely distorts games sales. I pointed out that, since Xmas, I've bought 22 games via digital download (mainly Steam), 3 by online retail, and 1 from over-the-counter retail.

    P.


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    #45
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    lol, Liz...Do independent amateurs get it right more often then professionals? Anyway professionals are fallible, and amateurs don't get flack for being wrong. If Steam don't release figures, surely everyone has a blind spot for PCs? In the 6-7% statement, he did actually mention going by "boxed packaging" but included Steam. So either he knows or it's his best guess.

    We're getting bogged down in semantics, anyway. Whatever comes of attacking the guy's credibility as an argument, his points are still valid. (Excluding MMOs of course) The PC videogame market is in the vast minority compared to the console market; so more developers make games for consoles. There might be a billion PCs/macs in people's houses but only a very small percentage of those would be capable of/are running current gen games. PC games sales vs pirated PC games is well above the average for home console systems, so developers don't focus on a PC port primarily. Going by the trend of the Wii's sales, a majority of (at least, console) gamers don't want a controller, even a keyboard and mouse; they just wanna waggle their hands.

    Surely if Steam was selling exceptionally well, they'd be on to more publishers to make more new, exclusive games? Is that the case? (I don't know) Or do Steam just buy the game and all the rights to it, so they make all the profits?


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    #46
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Surely if Steam was selling exceptionally well, they'd be on to more publishers to make more new, exclusive games? Is that the case? (I don't know) Or do Steam just buy the game and all the rights to it, so they make all the profits?

    Well, it's pointless arguing back and forth, since neither of us - or the analyst dude - knows these figures. It's safe to say that if games on Steam aren't selling well, it's strange that Valve would decide to invest in porting their entire back catalogue to Mac for Steam.

    You list a bunch of negatives about the platforms, which - with caveats(*) - I would agree with. My bugbear here is just about basing on PC sales on over-the-counter retail figures. It's a well-known phenomenon, he's not the only analyst doing it and it's a bizarre blindspot - like the way the music industry ignored download figures for years.

    (*) The caveats are:

    (a) It's a bit unfair to compare PCs to the _entire_ console market. You've really got to compare like with like; PC vs a particular platform. With that regard, it isn't doing that badly. The main thing isn't whether PC is beating any particular platform or getting a certain percentage; it's whether or not it's worth a developer's time to either port or create exclusive games for it. As long as they're doing that and making a profit, the actual market share is a bit irrelevant.

    (b) At this point in the console cycle, even PC a few years old can handle _most_ ports with ease. Apart from GTAIV, which a is a processor hog, my PC, which I haven't upgraded in 3 years, can play most games on highest settings at the moment. (I'm in the strange position of wanting to upgrade but not being able to justify it to myself.) Sure, a 5 year old PC might have problems or one with an onboard graphics card. But then it was worse in the old days; games requires constant upgrading and a knowledge of autoexec files to launch. It's nothing new that playing the latest PC games is a niche market. Not all of us want to sit in front of the TV waggling a controller for a party game.

    P.


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    #47
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Farmville has over 80 million players (that works out more than the worldwide Wii sales and more than the 360 and PS3 sales put together). What console has a game that comes even close to that?

    Stating that there is a smaller market for PC games is blatently false. The market is there, it's just a completely different style of market to the console one. The PC will never die as a gaming platform as it's already cornered several huge markets, namely MMO's, casual games (I'd be willing to bet far more people play Solitaire than do Halo) and competitive RTS/FPS games.

    Whether the PC gaming market is a bigger moneymaker than the console one is an entirely different question and one that's actually impossible to answer due to the lack of transparency when it comes to the revenue generated by Steam, most MMO's and even most casual games.


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    #48
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Agreed oceanclub. Could you hazard a guess at how many (legitimate, non-Pirated) PC gamers there are? (excluding flash games, games that come free on windows etc) lol

    That's a great statistic, Blowfish! I wouldn't consider Farmville a game, more a flash/java app that can be secretly played while working! I purposely also left handheld 'consoles' out of the discussion. I suppose Farmville could count as a casual game, like Wii Fit (which I'd class as a program/app) like the majority of Wii owners. I suppose i'd also factor in, how many of those 80 million are actually paying for it?

    I've always made sure to point out "excluding MMOs" since PCs have cornered that market of at least 12 million. I didn't think it would be semantic but when I say games I don't mean internet browser games, I mean games (in general) that cost millions of dollars to make with current gen graphics*. If "Solitaire HD" on 360, PS3 and PC, and PC gets a sizeable portion of those sales, I'd say there's a thriving market (relative to the console titles). It's an excellent point though, the casual/flash gamer is definitely a thriving community/market that I can only see expanding on PC.

    I don't know anything about RTS games so I'll take your word for it. FPS games, just taking MW2 as an example, sold ~11 million copies on the 360 alone, but (an estimated) 270,000 paying copies on PC. Even if the actual number was 10 times larger it'd still pale in comparison. Similarly, L4D2 with 2.7 million sales on the 360, and (estimated) 2-300,000 paying copies on PC. Do other FPS games have the opposite trend?

    Gosh it must aggravate you PogMoThoin, that your medium for games focuses on MMO's, casual games (eg solitaire, farmville) and competitive RTS/FPS games.


    * = please don't use that statement as an excuse to bash console graphics with tales of your 'budget models' have better graphics!!


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    #49
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    You could look at WoW. Bliz released the celestial steed mount on pet store and made a lot of money.

    Fancy Horse Makes Blizzard $2 Million in Four Hours

    The Celestial Steed is also known as The Retarded Horse :pac:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA


    Can't believe people queued and paid for that stupid thing

    EDIT: didn't see exclude mmo part.


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    #50
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    As Blowfish mentioned, there's a lot of irons in the fire for PC games (WoW being the biggest money-spinner) so PC games will never die. The genres of games most-available (MMO, RTS, FPS +/- casual) might not be your or many people's cup of tea, it's not mine anyway.


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    #51
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    I don't know anything about RTS games so I'll take your word for it. FPS games, just taking MW2 as an example, sold ~11 million copies on the 360 alone, but (an estimated) 270,000 paying copies on PC. Even if the actual number was 10 times larger it'd still pale in comparison. Similarly, L4D2 with 2.7 million sales on the 360, and (estimated) 2-300,000 paying copies on PC. Do other FPS games have the opposite trend?
    I probably should have expanded on that point. When I said competitive games, I meant games played in tournaments. Starcraft, Counterstrike, WoW, Warcraft III, FIFA (PC version), Quake, C&C, Doom, UT and lots more are all played competitively. The only console game that manages to be included in this is Halo and even then, it's mainly just North America rather than anywhere else.


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    #52
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Gummy Panda wrote: »
    You could look at WoW. Bliz released the celestial steed mount on pet store and made a lot of money.

    Fancy Horse Makes Blizzard $2 Million in Four Hours

    The Celestial Steed is also known as The Retarded Horse :pac:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCjuFpQ3EeA


    Can't believe people queued and paid for that stupid thing

    EDIT: didn't see exclude mmo part.

    Heck, I paid €2 for the rocket-propelled parachute in Just Cause 2. :)

    (That's the way to beat piracy; make it so cheap and easy to buy stuff (took me two clicks to do it for that addon) that for most people, you'd rather pay than hunt down ISOs, do installs, etc.)

    P.


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    #53
    Liber8or
    Closed Accounts Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Liber8or


    pcconsole.png


    /thread over

    Consoles were designed to provide entertainment in the most practical and easiest way possible for those not adept to using technology. Put the disc in, and play. However, as we have all seen in the last decade, consoles are becoming more complex and evolving into Entertainment Systems which play music and movies as well. Furthermore, you can browse the internet and use various applications such as Twitter or Facebook. Despite these great transformations, consoles still lack user manipulation and change. People who use consoles can only accept what is given to them by the developer or manufacturer. You can't upgrade the GFX card to extend its life, for example. Only good precision of marketing schemes such as introducing accessories (PS Move, 360 Kinect) can keep a console at the forefront of contemporary gaming.

    Mods, a strong community, and a direct input/output procedure for PC owners will keep PC gaming resilient for years to come. The fact that I can change everything both software and hardware affords me with a free choice in how I choose to play games. This freedom will never be looked over in favour of a derivative PC in the form of a console. However, if console developers try to appeal to both parties, it will end the entire purpose of such pieces of technology. Consoles need to stay uncomplicated or they risk losing the original intended audience.

    Just my opinion.


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    #54
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    There are 2,300,000 people on steam right at this moment so I would say it is in reasonable health to be honest.

    Even the PC only hardware killier Crysis ultimately sold around 2 million copies so there is certainly a reasonable market out there, which makes me think that estimates of 200,000 - 300,000 for the likes of L4D2 and MW2 are way off TBH.

    Indirectly the consoles need a viable PC gaming community too when you think about it, after all this generation of consoles was built to a large degree on the technology that had been tried and tested on the PC such as OpenGL / DX 9 graphics cards, Unreal engine etc.

    I have no doubt the same will also be true of the next generation as well, especially with it being at least three years or more away.

    My 2c, each to their own I say. (My own is XBox360 and PC)


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    #55
    Monotype
    Registered Users Posts: 6,710 ✭✭✭Monotype


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    FPS games, just taking MW2 as an example, sold ~11 million copies on the 360 alone, but (an estimated) 270,000 paying copies on PC.

    MW2 is a terrible example. There was a large boycott of this as a lot of people were pissed off with the lack of dedicated servers and other stuff.
    It performed well on console sales as it was extremely hyped up with something like $100 million in advertising and development costs less than half that.

    I think it's plausible in the coming years that we could have game mods for consoles. With steam coming to the PS and the installation of games, it could be possible. Probably not with the same level of flexibility and maybe not without a fee!


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    #56
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    MW2 is last year's biggest new game, that's why I chose it. I also gave L4D2 as well......i don't care to more research but if want to please do. Though I doubt you'd do research to show that games have sold much better on consoles.


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    #57
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    I don't know anything about RTS games so I'll take your word for it. FPS games, just taking MW2 as an example, sold ~11 million copies on the 360 alone, but (an estimated) 270,000 paying copies on PC.

    Where did you get that estimate? This one says 375K on the first day alone:

    http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/11/12/did-modern-warfare-2-pc-sell-over-375-000-copies-in-its-first-da/

    But as I said, one problem is the complete lack of transparency of sales.

    P.


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    #58
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    vgchartz for the 360 (they don't give PC sales); google'd it for the PC. I found them hard to come by. Whatever the sales I'm sure it's not a prominent number on average for console & PC games.
    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Agreed oceanclub. Could you hazard a guess at how many (legitimate, non-Pirated) PC gamers there are? (excluding flash games, games that come free on windows etc) lol


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    #59
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    vgchartz for the 360.

    From Wikipedia:
    Sales figures on VG Chartz are based on estimates extrapolated from small retail samples

    Attempting to extrapolate PC sales from retail - they might as well stick pins in a voodoo doll.

    As to the actual number of PC gamers, based on the face that a huge proportion of people now use Facebook on the PC, and a huge proportion of those play casual browser games, I'd say the figure is, well, huge, but no idea as to the actual number.

    P.


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    #60
    Dara Robinson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭Dara Robinson


    Overheal wrote: »
    but there will be always be a crowd out there that wants to have their own customizable platform
    Man that just sounds like a PC with another name. I mean a console is basically a non upgradable purpose built gaming PC that runs on linux. A "customizable" platform just sounds like what I have here. I mean they are adding web browsers, movie streaming etc... Consoles are trying to be PC's and should be fighting a loosing battle but they are not for some reason.
    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Would you agree that online matchups (like in Street Fighter) might stop a game from becoming "too easy"? (There's always an American online that can beat my ass)
    Thats a complete cop-out. A game designer that relies on a game providing some kind of challenge and entertainment through its online content only when its actually a Single Player game with a Multiplayer side is a joke and they should all be taken out back and shot till they die from it!!!
    oceanclub wrote: »
    Heck, I paid €2 for the rocket-propelled parachute in Just Cause 2. :)

    (That's the way to beat piracy; make it so cheap and easy to buy stuff (took me two clicks to do it for that addon) that for most people, you'd rather pay than hunt down ISOs, do installs, etc.)

    P.
    ACK!!! That grates on me no end. I buy a game and then I am expected to log online and buy content that SHOULD have been already included in the game so they can make an extra buck??? Whats this micro payment MMO's all over again? Most PC games when newly released cost 50-60 euros and I get home and find out that there is extra content that compels me to spend more money. No wonder piracy is so rampant. If they did not make so much money and sold the games cheaper maybe more people would buy them and they would make more money in the long run.
    When I do download a game its cause I have no faith in how good it is and cause I cant find a cheap (well more like correctly priced) box. However I do then go buy the ones that were well worth it. Dragon age, Mass Effect 2 (hell I even went and got Mass Effect 1 cause No2 was so good), Fear 1 & 2, Crysis, and some more are games I all downloaded from "places" and then went out and bought them cause they were worth it. But I certainly did not pay top dolla, screw that

    P.S: Liber8or is my hero for the next few days :D


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    #61
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    IMO games should be focused primarily on the main campaign, and online comes after. But the majority want multiplayer (as well as MMOs, I'd imagine) so that's what the focus is on :( Anyway, I find SF4 a challenge on medium, so if you're not 'challenged' by the hardest difficulty you should be playing in tournaments (ie you're too good at it!)

    I was referring to Pog saying games were "too easy"; I agree that games have gotten easier (i.e. I can now finish current gen games, which I routinely couldn't ~15 years ago) contend that there are still very difficult games should you wish to play them. Unless you're a SF wiz; it's very deep and difficult. And if that were too easy; online player can feed you additional challenge.

    Maybe Street Fighter isn't your thing, but there are extremely hard challenges to be found in today's gaming. I've played almost all of the main Mario games over the course of my life and I'm finding SMG2 a challenge!


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