Can't fill a vacant job position, you are NOT qualified

jayok · 11-06-2010 02:10PM

Floppybits wrote: »

No wonder the OP has a problem filling the vacancy with an attitude like this. Imagine all the good people that have been overlooked because of his blinkered view.

Errr... that wasn't the OP.

ToxicPaddy wrote:

...
On the job people with experience will stand head and shoulders above a person who has a degree, masters, certifications etc and no or little experience..
...

Agreed, but what I am struggling with is people with 6, 8, 11 years experience that have not achieved one single exam in that time. IT moves on, and yes, qualifications will expire, but it is beyond the realm of possibility to seek and obtain external qualification? It wasn't for me.

The powers that be are the vendors. Microsoft, Cisco, Check Point, Citrix, etc require that you demonstrate a level of competency within the organization in order to use their products and receive the correct level of support, etc.

Ultimately I am trying to find the right mix for the current team. We have a strong ethos on qualification and maintaining and promoting that. If someone with a significant number of years experience hasn't done something it sends the wrong message.

I am not new to this game at all. I ran my own IT company for 10+ years that sold last year. I been down the business and the HR path with all of this. I've seen wasters and stars of employees.

To me seeking further qualification demonstrates something.

messymess · 11-06-2010 02:16PM

If you think that qualifications equate to a candidates substance, you're completely wrong. I could instantly name a number of my own friends with IT degrees and there is not a hope that I would employ them. They are very nice, well presented blokes but they simply aren't clued in enough or interested enough in their field to be useful to many employers.

Further to that I know many people who spent years chasing additional paper qualifications on top of their degrees and again you see the same thing. People completely unqualified in areas that they are allegedly 'experts' in. Ask a highly qualified 'cisco guy' to describe the TCP three way handshake and you'll see what I mean.

You've got to remember that the certifications industry is a business too. Their aim is to get your money, keep pass rates high and spin its relevance to you (and it has worked). The mere fact that they 'teach' you anything is co-incidental in many cases.

I've given a fair number of interviews over the last year and I would say I've encountered better candidates than not. I'm not really interested in their qualifications, degree's etc as this is their own business but what I am interested in is their personality, enthusiasm, attitude, presentation, body language and technical smarts. We go through a number of technical areas and probing questions with everyone, that tends to sieve out the ****e candidates fairly quickly, certified or not. At the end of the day if someone has qualifications and can't do the job they're not good to me.

Just my two cent.

jayok · 11-06-2010 02:16PM

Greyfox wrote: »

I find your rant quite insulting..
.
.
.
I personally made the decision to get a job with a diploma and not bother with a degree and it's worked out well for me, I'm currently surrounded by people who have degrees that they think are useless

Firstly, I certainly didn't intend to insult.

Secondly, I never said a degree is a must, I said further qualification. A cert, a diploma a degree a masters are all a great achievement. However, what I was looking for someone for had progress further in qualification while in employment.

People seem to think it's ok to depend on experience alone in IT. The industry changes rapidly, why shouldn't people be expected to keep up?

Doctors, Electricians, Police, Mechanics are all required to keep there skills, etc upto date with further training. IT is the same.

Einstein · 11-06-2010 02:21PM

jayok wrote: »

To me seeking further qualification demonstrates something.

aha! progress!

What if a person was to come to you, had a desire to do these exams, had his year or two's experience under their belt, will you consider him/her?
Training is expensive. Only that my previous employer sent me on courses, i'd never have paid for the training myself!

It also took me 2-3 years to realise what kind of exams were even out there for IT, and all the different directions you could go.

McGilla · 11-06-2010 02:23PM

jayok wrote: »

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

I don't think it's the candidates fault! If it has been happening for 8 weeks!

Firstly it sounds like you are not Clearly indicating what the perfect candidate needs, and secondly, you may be asking for too much for €35k! Its my opinion if I was a good engineer, and had 8 years experiance I would not be applying for a role for €35k. ( I know its a good enough salary but if you want the write people be prepared to pay for it!)

If I was you I'd allow recruitment agents to fill the position, not just any of the big groups, but a specialist. It is worth the fee if you get the right candidate.

Greyfox · 11-06-2010 02:24PM

jayok wrote: »

People seem to think it's ok to depend on experience alone in IT. The industry changes rapidly, why shouldn't people be expected to keep up?

Well what if IT company are not willing to pay something towards an employees futher education and that employee can't afford to do it himself? Is an employee who does a great job and shows entusiasm not good enough?

Pittens · 11-06-2010 02:57PM

I am inclined to agree with the people who think the OP is expecting too much - 8 years experience and lots of qualifications - for 35k.

jayok · 11-06-2010 03:01PM

Greyfox wrote: »

Well what if IT company are not willing to pay something towards an employees futher education and that employee can't afford to do it himself? Is an employee who does a great job and shows entusiasm not good enough?

If after 8 years the IT company are not willing to pay for a company to progress, then the employee need to look at his/her options.

pittens wrote:

I am inclined to agree with the people who think the OP is expecting too much - 8 years experience and lots of qualifications - for 35k.

I didn't say that. I say 2-3 years experience with some further qualifications - that's only worth €35k. My example rotated around an individual who had 8 years experience and no further qualifications since entering the workforce.

seamus · 11-06-2010 03:02PM

jayok wrote: »

People seem to think it's ok to depend on experience alone in IT. The industry changes rapidly, why shouldn't people be expected to keep up?

"Keeping up" doesn't require you to attend training courses or get certifications though if the right reading material is out there.

Most IT professionals learn about new technologies by reading the white papers that come out, getting their hands on this new technology and using it. There's a method of progression in I.T. which means that provided that you are already familiar with what's going on at present, then a new technology is simply an improvement/extension on the next.

Think of it this way - when you buy a new mobile phone, you don't attend a training course to find out how to use it. You already know how to use your old mobile; your new one is simply an extension of that knowledge. You can read the manual, use the phone and a week later you know it inside-out. And no-one would ever claim that you haven't been keeping up to date on mobile phone technology because you've never attended a Nokia-created training course.

Korvanica · 11-06-2010 03:14PM

ok so youre not hiring people who can do the job but dont have a piece of paper from college? but you wont hire people who have the degree but no experience?

How is anyone supposed to get a job these days?

Im fresh out of college, and cannot get a job in my area of interest (development) because i dont have the 783 years experience thats wanted in most places...

CodeMonkey · 11-06-2010 03:17PM

jayok wrote: »

If after 8 years the IT company are not willing to pay for a company to progress, then the employee need to look at his/her options.

Options like looking for other employment in a company that really cares about qualifications and then told he/she doesn't have enough qualifications? :rolleyes:

I didn't say that. I say 2-3 years experience with some further qualifications - that's only worth €35k. My example rotated around an individual who had 8 years experience and no further qualifications since entering the workforce.

I have about 9 years work experience in IT and I have no 3rd level qualifications or any further qualifications. That doesn't mean I haven't learned any new technologies in the past 9 years. I'm considered a local expert in a lot of new technologies we've started using, not that I am always deserving of such praise. I just don't bother with a piece of paper that says "you're smart".

ps: as seamus points out, a lot of cutting edge technology doesn't have any associated courses you can learn from

jayok · 11-06-2010 03:17PM

seamus wrote: »

"Keeping up" doesn't require you to attend training courses or get certifications though if the right reading material is out there.

I agree, but certifications are a way of proving that you've read that material and and do something about implementing it. Is something that prospective employers can use to screen candidates.

seamus wrote: »

Think of it this way - when you buy a new mobile phone, you don't attend a training course to find out how to use it. You already know how to use your old mobile; your new one is simply an extension of that knowledge. You can read the manual, use the phone and a week later you know it inside-out. And no-one would ever claim that you haven't been keeping up to date on mobile phone technology because you've never attended a Nokia-created training course.

A Nokia is a consumer based device, it isn't difficult to learn in the first place.

Building infrastructure is more involved, changes in storage, networks, technologies, etc mean while the fundamentals stay the same there are significant changes in how they all sit together. It is far too prevalent in IT that "I'll pick it up as I go along". You then meet supposed Solution Architects that haven't a clue.

CodeMonkey · 11-06-2010 03:34PM

jayok wrote: »

It is far too prevalent in IT that "I'll pick it up as I go along". You then meet supposed Solution Architects that haven't a clue.

You also meet a lot of individuals with qualifications who doesn't have a clue. There are a lot of cowboys with and without degrees/certs/diplomas.

Aidric · 11-06-2010 03:34PM

Relevant work experience trumps a 3rd level qualification. That's just a no brainer.

JimmyCrackCorn · 11-06-2010 03:35PM

You want

Qualified with degree 2.1
4 years ish experience
Probably other qualifications two

With a salary of 35k

With the above qualifications id be looking for more money unless i was useless at my job.

I know its a recession and all that but id be actively seeking work while in your employment meaning you'd have an extra cost when i leave and have to find someone else.

ScumLord · 11-06-2010 03:36PM

All theory, no practice= Absolutely useless.

I've seen plenty of fresh out of collage engineers in the work place that are absolutely useless despite being able to recite manuals and spiel out best practice.

As far as I'm concerned qualifications are bought and paid for and mean nothing when it comes to getting the job done.

SV · 11-06-2010 03:37PM

lol, so here's how it is..

they might be excellent at the job..in fact they could have as much experience as you want! they could be the best for the job and know everything about it..
however, if they didn't sit through 3-4 years of mind numbingly boring college and attain a piece of paper at the end of it then they're not suitable for the job.

here's a tip for you OP and all those like you..cop the fúck on.

dublinguy2004 · 11-06-2010 03:41PM

SV wrote: »

lol, so here's how it is..

you might be excellent at the job..in fact you could have as much experience as we want! you could be the best for the job and know everything about it..
however, if you didn't sit through 3-4 years of mind numbingly boring college and attain a piece of paper at the end of it then you're not suitable for the job.

here's a tip for you OP and all those like you..cop the fúck on.

Companies prefer to employ people who've been through the system. A bachelors degree says a lot about an individual. Higher qualifications are only useful from the point of view of specialised knowledge that would be useful in an organisation. University is not about getting a qualification - it's about getting an education. I suggest reading Cardinal Newman's "The Idea of a University" for more on this. This worldly perspective is very important when it comes to things like dealing with customers, thinking critically and managing a team.

Then again, if all you need is an IT monkey who's going to spend his days in the server room and can be easily excited at the prospect of getting a new server rack, a diploma from Sligo Higher Institute of Technology should suffice. Just keep him well away from your customers.

SV · 11-06-2010 03:46PM

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Companies prefer to employ people who've been through the system. A bachelors degree says a lot about an individual. Higher qualifications are only useful from the point of view of specialised knowledge that would be useful in an organisation. University is not about getting a qualification - it's about getting an education. I suggest reading Cardinal Newman's "The Idea of a University" for more on this. This worldly perspective is very important when it comes to things like dealing with customers, thinking critically and managing a team.

I've done over 3 years of college and didn't do any of the exams.
I have no qualifications but plenty of education, do I count?

listermint · 11-06-2010 03:50PM

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Companies prefer to employ people who've been through the system. A bachelors degree says a lot about an individual. Higher qualifications are only useful from the point of view of specialised knowledge that would be useful in an organisation. University is not about getting a qualification - it's about getting an education. I suggest reading Cardinal Newman's "The Idea of a University" for more on this. This worldly perspective is very important when it comes to things like dealing with customers, thinking critically and managing a team.

Then again, if all you need is an IT monkey who's going to spend his days in the server room and can be easily excited at the prospect of getting a new server rack, a diploma from Sligo Higher Institute of Technology should suffice. Just keep him well away from your customers.

Did you just open the whole university versus IT argument :rolleyes:

listermint · 11-06-2010 03:51PM

SV wrote: »

I've done over 3 years of college and didn't do any of the exams.
I have no qualifications but plenty of education, do I count?

Was it in a 'University'

jayok · 11-06-2010 03:51PM

SV wrote: »

here's a tip for you OP and all those like you..cop the fúck on.

Actually no. I'll fill the role as I see fit.

I said nothing about requiring a degree/diploma/cert just someone who had demonstrated progress through further qualification.

dublinguy2004 · 11-06-2010 03:51PM

listermint wrote: »

Did you just open the whole university versus IT argument :rolleyes:

There is a difference. Even the staunchest of egalitarians can bring themselves to realising it.

Mind you, at least 2 of Ireland's so-called universities should be down-graded. About half of Ireland's ITs should be shut down.

Joe Schmo · 11-06-2010 03:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've a degree, two years experience in hedgefund accounting and I turn 23 in september. I rock.

I've learned a fekload more from experience than degree Op so I think you're missing out on some of these cvs. Nearly anyone will say this..

I agree with you; however I fault the ****ty degree level in Irish universities.

Like you I have a degree & 2 years fund accounting. I am also currently in the CFA program. I have learned way more in this American program (CFA) than the Irish degree and experience put together.

dublinguy2004 · 11-06-2010 03:56PM

Joe Schmo wrote: »

I agree with you; however I fault the ****ty degree level in Irish universities.

Like you I have a degree & 2 years fund accounting. I am also currently in the CFA program. I have learned way more in this American program (CFA) than the Irish degree and experience put together.

The CFA is a qualification I have a LOT of respect for. I'm not a finance guy, but I've seen the thickness of those books and the amount of hours you have to put in. Also, the €1,000 re-sit fee certainly focuses your mind. None of this waiting around for the nanny state to provide funding for your poor lower middle class ass.

barbiegirl · 11-06-2010 04:18PM

In fairness to the OP he has said repeatedly 2-3 years EXPERIENCE AND some qualifications. I also work in IT on the sales side and have exerienced lazy IT techies who drift along and don't want to move forward and learn new things. In order to sell the best hardware and software you MUST have qualified personnel, otherwise the vendors won't allow you trade in their name. The OP did interview the guy with no qualifications and found him to not be interested in further study. In fact I could know the guy!!
The generalisations on both sides of this arguement are huge. Having qualifications does not make you an ass, and also not having any doesn't make you unmotivated, depending on other factors such as willingness of employer to train you, length of time out college etc.
For 2-3 years experience with some sort of qualification €35k is not bad, but over 4 years sorry I'd want more, and as my hubbie is a developer I would expect him to get more.
Maybe go through the cv's again, see if the experience of anyone catches you eye and contact them to ask why they have no qualifications. Then based on these responses you might just find the right candidate.
It is the same in every market right now, 4 years ago anyone could be a carpenter, but now for the few jobs in the market they only want qualified carpenters with papers AND experience. It is worth the committment of furthering your education to move faster up the ladder no matter what market you are in.

dvpower · 11-06-2010 04:20PM

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Companies prefer to employ people who've been through the system. A bachelors degree says a lot about an individual. Higher qualifications are only useful from the point of view of specialised knowledge that would be useful in an organisation. University is not about getting a qualification - it's about getting an education. I suggest reading Cardinal Newman's "The Idea of a University" for more on this. This worldly perspective is very important when it comes to things like dealing with customers, thinking critically and managing a team.

He wrote that in the 1850s.
Do you have some more recent research?

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

Then again, if all you need is an IT monkey who's going to spend his days in the server room and can be easily excited at the prospect of getting a new server rack, a diploma from Sligo Higher Institute of Technology should suffice.

Cardinal Newman would wet himself.

Unique User Name · 11-06-2010 04:27PM

dublinguy2004 wrote: »

There is a difference. Even the staunchest of egalitarians can bring themselves to realising it.

Mind you, at least 2 of Ireland's so-called universities should be down-graded. About half of Ireland's ITs should be shut down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXg78yib4k

Raiser · 11-06-2010 04:33PM

jayok wrote: »

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

I hope you end up hiring Braindump Billy - Master of learning of questions and getting IT Certs without any actual underlying knowledge.

- Then I hope he bankrupts your Company and runs off with your Wife.....

jayok · 11-06-2010 04:36PM

Raiser wrote: »

I hope you end up hiring Braindump Billy - Master of learning of questions and getting IT Certs without any actual underlying knowledge.

- Then I hope he bankrupts your Company and runs off with your Wife.....

Yeah, that's a useful post :rolleyes:

Can't fill a vacant job position, you are NOT qualified

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