Can't fill a vacant job position, you are NOT qualified

jayok

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

Fuhrer

Maybe you should be more specific with your Ad.


Microsoft Certificate in etc.
Degree with at least 2.1 etc.

Einstein

IT qualifications aint all that, depending on the role.

Unless its something like programming role, where qualification is pretty much def needed.

Ive interviewed people for contract roles to replace me at times, and I've always gone for the people with the experience and a couple of specific couple of self study exams (MCSE etc) over the computer degree people.

Sanjuro

Wow. Even in terms of AH generalisations, that one's pretty spectacular.

Beanstalk

The reality of it is though, most qualifications fail miserably in the face of experience. Its too bad people have to pay out money now on silly courses to get jobs.

danbohan

jayok wrote: »

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

their is a bit of an obsession in ireland with qualifications , what about doing a good job ? , experience etc etc , its part same smug mentality that has landed the Celtic tiger cubs in the biggest sh1t in Europe if not the world , get over yourselves .

Fuhrer

danbohan wrote: »

their is a bit of an obsession in ireland with qualifications , what about doing a good job ? , experience etc etc , its part same smug mentality that has landed the Celtic tiger cubs in the biggest sh1t in Europe if not the world , get over yourselves .

Because "I do a good job" is a lot hard skill to market?

Wazdakka

jayok wrote: »

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Give it a few years..
We're about to become one of the most overqualified work forces in the world.
With all the unemployment and such, loads of people have gone back to college "To get that masters they always wanted" or whatever..

In 5 years time the guy cleaning the underside of the jacks in coppers is going to have a bloody doctorate in theoretical physics.

jayok

Einstein wrote: »

IT qualifications aint all that depending on the role.

Ive interviewed people for contract roles to replace me at times, and I've always gone for the people with the experience and a couple of specific couple of self study exams (MCSE etc) over the computer degree people.

It's infrastructure stuff, so MCSE, CCNA, CCSE, etc.

The purpose of the qualifications is two fold. One to demonstrate ability and two to demonstrate motivation.

Take the example of the guy with 6 years experience in telecoms. No academic or formal qualification achieved in that time. What do that say to a prospective employer? FWIW I interviewed the guy and basically during the time he went merrily along doing his task. However, he didn't attempt to move-up or progress, just happily filling out his day.

@Furher - the ad specifies that such are desirable items.

jayok

Wazdakka wrote: »

Give it a few years..
We're about to become one of the most overqualified work forces in the world.

Great, if we do. But that's a few years and will hamper growth.

jayok

Beanstalk wrote: »

The reality of it is though, most qualifications fail miserably in the face of experience. Its too bad people have to pay out money now on silly courses to get jobs.

Agreed. But you will need both to succeed in this market.

Biggins

I've hired and worked with people with good certs, etc and they have turned out to have poor practicable ability to use those skills in real life situations and under pressure.
I have also hired folk with same certs and they could do the job standing on their head with high class.

I've hired folk with little certs and a lot of on the job, years of hand-on experience too and they run away with a show of job excellence.

My point: Certs while are a good easy indicator at start-up of initial assessments - they shouldn't be the "be and end all" essential criteria in a lot of cases for filling a position.
To do so, is shooting one self in the foot from the get-go.

OP, you could be losing out BIG time and I also disagree with your latter off-hand comment.

soups05

or to put it another way, some of us were too busy doing the job to get the certs needed to allow us to do the job. our employers could not attract the poeple they needed cos they all had good well paid jobs so us lowly thickos were thrust into it and expected to cope.

now of course there are lots of unemployed around so suddenly it seems i may need to take a paycut as i am not qualified to do the job i have been doing for ten years.

sorry op that ^^^^ was a flashback to jan 09 when i had to take redundancy cos my company outsourced to holland. seems they have better educated people over there who will work for less than me.

luckly i had a second job at the weekends which quickly became my main income.

before ranting about the irish being un-ed-u-may-cated just think that sometimes it the fault of employers who prefer to have a job done than to have to wait for someone with the right degree etc to come along.

I don't understand the disdain for qualifications in Ireland. How else can you show that you can do something? You might have 10 years experience but you could have been sitting on your arse drinking tea the whole time. You can't expect people to hire based on the fact you said you can do X,Y and Z. The qualification might be a piece of paper but it demonstrates that courses have been passed. I need various professional qualifications in my field, usually software related ones, just did one last week in fact. I have lots of experience using the software and know it inside out, but I need that qualification on my CV if I expect anyone to hire me. Otherwise I could just be bullsh*tting. Anyone can say they can do something.

Chips Lovell

Maybe the people with qualifications are in better paid jobs elsewhere?

ballsymchugh

Biggins wrote: »

I've hired and worked with people with good certs, etc and they have turned out to have poor practicable ability to use those skills in real life situations and under pressure.
I have also hired folk with same certs and they could do the job standing on their head with high class.

I've hired folk with little certs and a lot of on the job, years of hand-on experience too and they run away with a show of job excellence.

My point: Certs while are a good easy indicator at start-up of initial assessments - they shouldn't be the "be and end all" in a lot of cases for filling a position.
To do so, is shooting one self in the foot from the get-go.

OP, you could be losing out BIG time and I also disagree with your latter off-hand comment.

aha! have you found out now. so you employ people to go through boards and have a response for everything that you're interested in? that would explain how you manage to post so feckin often!!
and they're probably all french supermodels too. max age 25. years of hands on experience indeed!

Einstein

jayok wrote: »

It's infrastructure stuff, so MCSE, CCNA, CCSE, etc.

The purpose of the qualifications is two fold. One to demonstrate ability and two to demonstrate motivation.

Take the example of the guy with 6 years experience in telecoms. No academic or formal qualification achieved in that time. What do that say to a prospective employer? FWIW I interviewed the guy and basically during the time he went merrily along doing his task. However, he didn't attempt to move-up or progress, just happily filling out his day.

I think you need to open your eyes a little..

Lets look at it this way, a person in the IT game for 8 or 9 years with the odd exam, relevant to his specialty behind him, probably has more interest in the particular job he's doing, compared to the freshman from college with the degree, who was forced to put something down on his CAO form, and possibly ended up getting a place in a course which may not even have been his first choice...

I have no degree or "formal" qualification. Does that mean I'm lazy and have no goals to progress?

Your generalising kinda sucks tbh :rolleyes:

jayok

soups05 wrote: »

sorry op that ^^^^ was a flashback to jan 09 when i had to take redundancy cos my company outsourced to holland. seems they have better educated people over there who will work for less than me.

luckly i had a second job at the weekends which quickly became my main income.

before ranting about the irish being un-ed-u-may-cated just think that sometimes it the fault of employers who prefer to have a job done than to have to wait for someone with the right degree etc to come along.

It's easy to blame the employers and indeed some employers have failed in this regard for providing opportunity for employees to upskill. But ultimately it's the responsibility of the individual to progress themselves.

The outsourcing of your job to Holland is an example of the problem.

Really, what grating me now is that some people are still not attempting to seek any further qualifications. Belief that my X years or experience should suffice.

danbohan

Fuhrer wrote: »

Because "I do a good job" is a lot hard skill to market?

i tell you one thing friend , i fired more guys with qualifications than guys without , not saying they are not needed they certainly are but they are not be all and end all

Chairman Meow

Im easily qulaified for that :cool:

pm plz

KingLoser

7 years IT experience, no formal qualifications. Have to laugh at some of the things the graduates in my company do.

Your thread is kinda broke OP.

edit: unless an A+ counts?

Banned Account

jayok wrote: »

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

Two months without filling it and you have time to post on Boards.ie - sounds like a pretty unnecessary position to be.

Chairman Meow

Wait a minute, the op says 'nothing too hectic, couple years experience, couple of qualifications', then busts out thats you need an MSCE, CCNA, and CCSE??
Youre having a laugh mate, dont think you even know what you want in this job

Biggins

ballsymchugh wrote: »

aha! have you found out now. so you employ people to go through boards and have a response for everything that you're interested in? that would explain how you manage to post so feckin often!!
and they're probably all french supermodels too. max age 25. years of hands on experience indeed!

1. Get that snotty chip off your shoulder, it does you no credit.

2. I've worked damn hard (just like many here) for years to create businesses and now I am able to take a back seat and relax a bit more. Managers/on-site supervisors are great things you know.
Sorry if that irks you.

swe_fi

I have hired people based on 5 min telephone interviews

I have hired people based on 3 extensive interviews (because I was forced to do this)

It is almost impossible to tell if a person will be good for you, qualifications or not.

jayok

Einstein wrote: »

I think you need to open your eyes a little..

Lets look at it this way, a person in the IT game for 8 or 9 years with the odd exam, relevant to his specialty behind him, probably has more interest in the particular job he's doing, compared to the freshman from college with the degree, who was forced to put something down on his CAO form, and possibly ended up getting a place in a course which may not even have been his first choice...

I have no degree or "formal" qualification. Does that mean I'm lazy and have no goals to progress?

Your generalising kinda sucks tbh :rolleyes:

I don't know you therefore I have no idea what your motivation or goals are.

But if you were applying for this job and completed no exams, unless your CV was outstanding, you'd be skipped, yes.

ballsymchugh

Biggins wrote: »

1. Get that snotty chip off your shoulder, it does you no credit.

2. I've worked damn hard (just like many here) for years to create businesses and now I am able to take a back seat and relax a bit more. Managers/on-site supervisors are great things you know.
Sorry if that irks you.

woah, relax biggins. i have no chips on either shoulder. maybe a misunderstood sense of humour?!
like you, i've worked damn hard to get where i am now. still have a bit to go before i can take a back seat but i know i'll get there too.

Einstein

jayok wrote: »

The outsourcing of your job to Holland is an example of the problem.

Or maybe it was cheaper labour?

jayok wrote: »

Really, what grating me now is that some people are still not attempting to seek any further qualifications. Belief that my X years or experience should suffice.

Why does that grate you?
Are you comparing potential employees to yourself and if they dont have enough letters after their name they havn't got the motivation or the will to do a god job and move up in the world?
News flash. Some people are quite happy workin for the man.

Faith+1

Wazdakka wrote: »

In 5 years time the guy cleaning the underside of the jacks in coppers is going to have a bloody doctorate in theoretical physics.

Who say's they haven't one already! :rolleyes:

Einstein

jayok wrote: »

...
But if you were applying for this job and completed no exams, unless your CV was outstanding, you'd be skipped, yes.

Because this is thread is in AH and not work and empoyment, i'm gonna go right out and say that post is quite retarded, and as Biggins mentioned earlier, you have no idea what your missing out on regarding the possible employees you've overlooked.

prinz

danbohan wrote: »

its part same smug mentality that has landed the Celtic tiger cubs in the biggest sh1t in Europe if not the world , get over yourselves .

I think you'll find the 'Celtic Tiger Cubs' were for the most part chancers who thought they could turn their hand to anything and make easy money. A huge amount of my LC year would have gone from school straight to the workforce where there was loads of money to be made. They are the real 'tiger cubs'.

Pittens

Experience should matter more than the certs. May depend on the role, but I wouldnt turn down a google employee if he just had a good degree and years working in Google with good refs for the guy with a job somehwhere else and google certifications.

In fact, if someone has ignored the certs, and done some shareware, or has something he can show off, all the better.

Biggins

ballsymchugh wrote: »

woah, relax biggins. i have no chips on either shoulder. maybe a misunderstood sense of humour?!
like you, i've worked damn hard to get where i am now. still have a bit to go before i can take a back seat but i know i'll get there too.

Good to hear - and I apologise if I came back a bit too strong too.

The OP might consider taking more so, advantage of trial work periods/short contract timings.
If everything works out in the long run, more longer periods of employment could be entered into.

(It by the way, gives the employee the advantage too of finding out if they indeed like the place they work in or for.
They can then exit if wish, with clean good grace without an exit blemish on their record)

jayok

Einstein wrote: »

Why does that grate you?
Are you comparing potential employees to yourself and if they dont have enough letters after their name they havn't got the motivation or the will to do a god job and move up in the world?
News flash. Some people are quite happy workin for the man.

It does so because I want to fill a position with a candidate that hold both qualifications and experience. I believe my criteria are not that strict, yet of the CVs I received there seems to be a general lack of qualifications.

I am not trying to compare myself to anyone, or never would - each to their own. But why should a minimum entry be lowered?

seamus

jayok wrote: »

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

There's a half-and-half problem here. Employers think that because there's a recession on they can offer much lower salaries and get away with it.

Qualifications prove that at some point you took a test in a subject and passed it. It doesn't guarantee that they remember anything about that subject. If one candidate had six years experience working as a network tech, but no certifications, and another had a CCNA but hadn't looked at a router in two years, I would take the first candidate over the second; hands down.
If you had two candidates with equally long experience except one was certified and the other wasn't, I would still only give him a slightly higher rating on account of the fact that someone bothered to pay for him to go take an exam.

If you're getting 1000 CVs from people with 6+ years experience and you think that none of them are qualified for the job, then you're clearly looking for someone with specialist skills and €35k just won't cut it. You need to attract them from another job and offering average industrial wage is not going to do that.

Employers, you are NOT as attractive as you think.

danbohan

prinz wrote: »

I think you'll find the 'Celtic Tiger Cubs' were for the most part chancers who thought they could turn their hand to anything and make easy money. A huge amount of my LC year would have gone from school straight to the workforce where there was loads of money to be made. They are the real 'tiger cubs'.

fair enough , but in my experience the really arrogant cubs were the ones with some worthless degree from some unheard of college who thought they were hot sh1t

jayok

Einstein wrote: »

Because this is thread is in AH and not work and empoyment, i'm gonna go right out and say that post is quite retarded, and as Biggins mentioned earlier, you have no idea what your missing out on regarding the possible employees you've overlooked.

So because you don't meet the minimum requirements for the job, the post is retarded?

If employees are that outstanding, the pursuit of qualification are normally not an issue.

ToxicPaddy

Qualifications dont mean a lot if you dont have a clue what you're doing..

A few years ago a company I worked in got in a "senior" infrastructure engineer, this guy had MCSE, CCNP, RedHat, Checkpoint, etc, basically qualifications coming out of his ears..

He couldnt even install and configure Windows on a server, I had less than 2 years experience in IT at the time and would wipe the floor with him knowledge wise.. he was getting paid 3 times what I was and didnt have a clue.. Needless to say he didnt last long.

In the end they got in a guy with and MCSE and nothing more, just a good few years of experience.. worked a treat and a sound guy too..

I know a lot of companies see IT as a necessary evil and have them there as they need them and nothing more, dont want to spend money on them and certainly dont want to upskill them and these exams are expensive to do.

If you're ignoring people just because they dont have the right qualifications, then you're making one big mistake.. experience counts for everything, sometimes people cant afford or dont have the time to do qualifications, or else their former employers dont invest in them.. there are a variety of reasons.

Granted with the current economic climate you're going to get everyone applying for everything, but do look at the guys who have experience, you might be overlooking a complete gem just because he doesnt have a degree.

Tox

fryup

this thread reminds me of a Bernard Manning joke......

an irishman goes looking for a job on a building site in london..

he approaches the gaffer and asks is there any jobs going??

the gaffer says yes whats your name ...

the irishman says Paddy Mulligan

the gaffer says how do you spell that??

the irishman says stick you job up your arse!!

dvpower

jayok wrote: »

So we've a job position available in our company I'm trying to fill. Nothing too hectic, salary circa €35k. It's in IT and we're looking for somebody with a couple of years experience and some qualifications.

Now, the thing is, this position has been advertised for the last two months and we've about 1,000 CVs in, but the quality of candidates out there is extremely poor.

What we've been getting is plenty of people with say 4-8 years "experience" in the relevant industry, but no formal qualifications. For example, there's one individual with 6+ years in a telecoms company, but left school and did no further education (be it degree or professional). This is a joke, it seemed in the boom years, jobs were so plentiful that nobody bothered to progress in qualifications, etc. Even now, some of the candidates are not even looking to progress themselves.

This doesn't appears to be unique to IT, but as I speak to colleagues in other industries (accounting, etc) they are suffering the same. Plenty of people, but none actually qualified.

So people, if you don't hold any further qualifications beyond your school or degree, get moving.

Ireland, you are NOT as qualified as you think

Rant over.

Let me see...

You're looking to pay €35k for an IT role to a candidate who has a degree and a couple of years experience and some further qualifications. You've got 1000 applications, but you can't find a suitable candidate.

Have you considered that it might be you, not them?

General Zod

you want a CCNA/MCSE qualified level of candidate for "some IT work" and are only offering 35k?

jayok

seamus wrote: »

There's a half-and-half problem here. Employers think that because there's a recession on they can offer much lower salaries and get away with it.

......

Employers, you are NOT as attractive as you think.

I agree, I had envisaged someone with say 2 years experience AND some qualification (e.g. MCPs, CCNAs, etc) filling the role. At this target market I imagined that €35k was fair. I don't see the position being worth more than that.

With the company we have a continuous training for all employees to pursue qualifications and the pursuit of such is tied to a performance (hence pay related). This suits both employee and employer. And of course we have to e attractive too. So I accept all of that.

Einstein

jayok wrote: »

So because you don't meet the minimum requirements for the job, the post is retarded?

If employees are that outstanding, the pursuit of qualification are normally not an issue.

It's your attitude as an employer IMO.

So even though I have 11+ years experience in IT, a couple of MCP's, but don't have the academic background of a degree etc, you're gonna throw my CV out..?
Me thinks you have lots to learn about how the IT industry works.

jayok

General Zod wrote: »

you want a CCNA/MCSE qualified level of candidate for "some IT work" and are only offering 35k?

I want a someone with some demonstration of qualifications. CCNA/MCSE, etc are just examples an few MCPs will do.

Only €35k? Jeez, I'm not looking for a heart surgeon.

jayok

Einstein wrote: »

It's your attitude as an employer IMO.

So even though I have 11+ years experience in IT, a couple of MCP's, but don't have the academic background of a degree etc, you're gonna throw my CV out..?
Me thinks you have lots to learn about how the IT industry works.

Ahhh... you see you do have both experience and qualifications (MCP's). Your previous post said no qualifications.

In this industry 16 years, quite familiar with it, thank you.

kudo

I work in IT also. I have a degree and a masters and a couple of other qualifications. I would still rate relevant experience higher than qualifications after a certain amount of experience. The majority of knowledge comes from working within an industry. This cannot be taught in a University or Institute Of Technology.
Because a person has not chosen to pursue other qualifications while working could simply be down time/money factors.

I've a degree, two years experience in hedgefund accounting and I turn 23 in september. I rock.

I've learned a fekload more from experience than degree Op so I think you're missing out on some of these cvs. Nearly anyone will say this..

Einstein

€35k for 2 years exp with MCP (not so much CCNA) in the current market isn't actually that bad of an offer.
It's no direspect to you personally. I just can't fathom your generalisation of people with no qualifications, assuming they have no goals or motivation.

BigEejit

I knew a guy back in the late '80s who had a very good degree in electronics (with masters iirc), who had never touched a soldering iron in his life and amusingly burned the palm of his hand on his first attempt at actually making something that he had designed on paper.

And after he spent an entire week trying to get it working, I was given the job and did it in ~15 minutes.... At the time I was in my leaving cert year and this was a part time job for me. He got sacked after a few months because he was hopelessly inept.

Some degrees lend themselves to getting people trained in their forthcoming jobs and having a good understanding of how to go about doing things. Other degrees test how good the students memory is.

If someone has been doing a job in a demanding environment (possibly on shift) then usually there is buggerall opportunity/management foresight to get the employees trained.

Also, its not that much of a leap of imagination to see managements thinking "They are doing the job now, why train them because they will only move on to better jobs elsewhere and I will have to spend time finding their replacement"

Overheal

ballsymchugh wrote: »

aha! have you found out now. so you employ people to go through boards and have a response for everything that you're interested in? that would explain how you manage to post so feckin often!!
and they're probably all french supermodels too. max age 25. years of hands on experience indeed!

well not that biggins seems the type but, when you're successful, you gotta show it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T8Gxk7vbec

seamus

jayok wrote: »

I agree, I had envisaged someone with say 2 years experience AND some qualification (e.g. MCPs, CCNAs, etc) filling the role. At this target market I imagined that €35k was fair. I don't see the position being worth more than that.

I've seen job posts like this before I think they're a little bizarre.
Yes, €35k is a good salary for someone who's two years in the workforce.

The problem is that you're looking for certifications from people who are barely out of college. Graduates don't leave college and instantly go and get certified. They almost all end up working in some support role for at least a year before a company moves them up to admin or something similar. At some point after that the company then encourages them to take exams and go and get certifications. But 90% of the time, they'll have been working with the technology for a number of years before they get the certification.

I'm aware that some companies take it fresh IT recruits, sit them in front of a mountain of books and get them to sit 10 certificate exams before they even look at a computer, but these are few and far between.

Grads and young workers can't afford the €1k+ it costs to train for and get each cert, so you'll find very few people so fresh out of college *and* with industry qualifications.

I'm a little bit surprised that you're turning down people with 6+ years experience in what you're looking for, and at the same time saying that you'd be happy with someone who has only 2 years experience, so long as they're certified. I think you're insane for not leaping on someone with the experience if you can get them at the price you're offering.