Solidarity with Israelis

djsomers · 06-06-2010 12:09am #1

Has anyone ever stopped to think what all this hatred towards Israel is doing to the innocent people of Israel who have to live with this terror? I am completely against the illegal blockade of Gaza and the Israeli government's handling of affairs. But there is too much anti-Jew anti-Muslim anti-everthing going around. People should take a step back and see things for how they really are. I am sure there are a lot of anxoius Jews in Israel right now who the world should be showing solidarity with. Has anyone got any opinions or suggestions as to how things should change to get things in order instead of this blind fear mongering and hate?

hinault · 06-06-2010 12:11am

No.

gandalf · 06-06-2010 12:15am

What blind fear mongering.

If you are talking about criticism of the Flotilla operation most people are outraged by the blatant disregard for International Law displayed by Israel as well as the outright brutality of the assault.

If you are talking about the Blockade of Gaza. Apart from the legality of it, how can it be claimed to be just about keeping weapons out of the territory when you look at the list of prescribed items.

I have criticised Israel because of these not for any other reason. The majority of people on this site would have similar reasons I warrant.

mike65 · 06-06-2010 12:32am

In before the PLO-mods lock!

Mayo Exile · 06-06-2010 12:57am

djsomers wrote: »

I am sure there are a lot of anxoius Jews in Israel right now

????

With c.3000 tanks, 1200 self propelled artillery pieces, 800+ combat aircraft and anywhere beween 75 and 400 nuclear warheads under their control allied to a trigger happy mentality, why would any Jews in Israel be anxious? It's the Palestinian people and Israel's neighbours who are anxious alot more of the time me thinks.

Breadzer · 06-06-2010 1:01am

you sir are an idiot

youcrazyjesus! · 06-06-2010 1:03am

djsomers wrote: »

Has anyone ever stopped to think what all this hatred towards Israel is doing to the innocent people of Israel who have to live with this terror? I am completely against the illegal blockade of Gaza and the Israeli government's handling of affairs. But there is too much anti-Jew anti-Muslim anti-everthing going around. People should take a step back and see things for how they really are. I am sure there are a lot of anxoius Jews in Israel right now who the world should be showing solidarity with. Has anyone got any opinions or suggestions as to how things should change to get things in order instead of this blind fear mongering and hate?

Point me to one post that's "anti-Jew" or even "anti-Muslim".

(Btw I believe there was a single post on one thread and the user was subsequently banned).

Mayo Exile · 06-06-2010 1:06am

Breadzer wrote: »

you sir are an idiot

Ignoring your personal attack, do you have an actual point to make? There was a bit of dark humour in the post, but as dlofnep rightfully suggests below is it their government's behaviour which may be making alot of Jews in Israel anxious rather than Hamas etc?

dlofnep · 06-06-2010 1:16am

I have empathy for the average Israeli. I think everybody should watch Hashmatsa by Israeli documentary maker -Yoav Shamir. While it addresses the abuse of the anti-semitic card, you get to see the Israeli mindset a little clearer. It will make you empathise more with the average Israeli for sure.

But yes, I do feel sorry for the Israeli people. But their Government is doing everything it possibly can to hurt them. They are taught at a very young age to fear the world, and that the world is against them. They grow up feeling as victims, and as such - cannot fathom that anyone who attacks their country could be a victim.

It's a very complex issue - and it's obviously very hard to get to the root of, because most people (myself included at times) are emotionally driven - resulting in reactionary politics.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-06-2010 7:36am

dlofnep wrote: »

I have empathy for the average Israeli. I think everybody should watch Hashmatsa by Israeli documentary maker -Yoav Shamir. While it addresses the abuse of the anti-semitic card, you get to see the Israeli mindset a little clearer. It will make you empathise more with the average Israeli for sure.

But yes, I do feel sorry for the Israeli people. But their Government is doing everything it possibly can to hurt them. They are taught at a very young age to fear the world, and that the world is against them. They grow up feeling as victims, and as such - cannot fathom that anyone who attacks their country could be a victim.

It's a very complex issue - and it's obviously very hard to get to the root of, because most people (myself included at times) are emotionally driven - resulting in reactionary politics.

+1.

I've a few Israeli friends, and have spent a lot of time in Israel and your post sum's up the ordinary Israeli on the street 100%.

They are brought up to believe the outside world is against them and have what feels to them to be a genuine fear of it.

dlofnep thats a very good summing up of the Israeli people IMO.

me_right_one · 06-06-2010 8:09am

djsomers wrote: »

Has anyone ever stopped to think what all this hatred towards Israel is doing to the innocent people of Israel who have to live with this terror? I am completely against the illegal blockade of Gaza and the Israeli government's handling of affairs. But there is too much anti-Jew anti-Muslim anti-everthing going around. People should take a step back and see things for how they really are. I am sure there are a lot of anxoius Jews in Israel right now who the world should be showing solidarity with. Has anyone got any opinions or suggestions as to how things should change to get things in order instead of this blind fear mongering and hate?

Yes. Long ago, the country we now know as Isreal was just part of some kings jurastiction. There were people there who followed the Jewish religion, people who were pagans, in time Christians, Muslins etc. all inhabiting this place. The Jewish followers were not necessarily a race, or related to each othe any more than they were related to the muslins living in the locality. They were all just arabs living on that particular piece of planet Earth.

Over time, people spread, as they do. Along came the idea of a religious state. Pakistan went for it, so did Iran, England went for protestantism, and if we're honest, Ireland was a religious state too. We were a catholic state, no doubt about it.

WW2 came along, and hitler had an irrational hate of anyone who happened to follow the Jewish faith, for some reason. It could have been anybody, but he hated Jews. After WW2, all the Jews of the world seemed to come together, and claim a type of racial commonality. Nonesense of course. Then they just picked "Isreal" out of their folklore, much akin to Tir-na-nog, and decided they were going to hipocritically do what had been done to them, target a place and wipe out its inhabitants, and set up a religious state. They randomly picked Palestine.

So, solutions to this problem: 1)Admit they were wrong, ask for forgivness off the Palestinian natives, and just all live together as a secular nation with religious freedom under a democratic national palestinian government, or 2)Go back from wherever they (their previous generation of settlers)came from. America, Russia, Germany, Poland, France, and even Palestine.

As for this victimisation complex, its the native Palestinians who are the victims. Dont the isreali's see the hypocricy? I think its much like the North of Ireland. When a group invade, and know they are clearly in the wrong, they tend to dig the heels in more in desparation. Does the average Isreali agree with what their govt is doing? Do they ever? Do they always? Do they see themselves as being perfectly in the right to be there? Or are there any sane, just minded Isreali's out there who acknowledge how wrong their occupation of Palestine is?

halkar · 06-06-2010 10:37am

me_right_one wrote: »

..
WW2 came along, and hitler had an irrational hate of anyone who happened to follow the Jewish faith, for some reason. It could have been anybody, but he hated Jews. After WW2, all the Jews of the world seemed to come together, and claim a type of racial commonality. Nonesense of course. Then they just picked "Isreal" out of their folklore, much akin to Tir-na-nog, and decided they were going to hipocritically do what had been done to them, target a place and wipe out its inhabitants, and set up a religious state. They randomly picked Palestine.
..

Palestine was not randomly picked. Zionist movement started around end of 19th century during Ottomans decline along with the nationalism in Balkans. Palestine was under Ottomans rule for over 400 years where muslims, jews, christians and other religions lived in relative peace.

Zionism timeline..

History of Jerusalem

From above article it is clearly present that the only period of time where religious tolerence possible was during muslim rules ( Caliphates and Ottoman).

As much as the current and past events are being twisted around religions it is politics that destroying Palestine and Israel.

Macha · 06-06-2010 10:55am

halkar wrote: »

Palestine was not randomly picked. Zionist movement started around end of 19th century during Ottomans decline along with the nationalism in Balkans. Palestine was under Ottomans rule for over 400 years where muslims, jews, christians and other religions lived in relative peace.

Actually, a tract of land in Uganda was considered at one stage. Palestine was largely chosen because it was under British mandate and as such could be relatively easily handed over.

halkar · 06-06-2010 11:15am

taconnol wrote: »

Actually, a tract of land in Uganda was considered at one stage. Palestine was largely chosen because it was under British mandate and as such could be relatively easily handed over.

From Wiki

During the First Zionist Congress, the following agreement, commonly known as the Basel Program, was reached:

Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

1.The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Palestine of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers.
2.The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country.
3.The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness.
4.Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism.[23]
"Under public law" is generally understood to mean seeking legal permission from the Ottoman rulers for Jewish migration. In this text the word "home" was substituted for "state" and "public law" for "international law" so as not to alarm the Ottoman Sultan

The "Uganda" proposal
In 1903, the British Colonial Secretary, Joseph Chamberlain, suggested the British Uganda Programme, land for a Jewish state in "Uganda" (in today's Uasin Gishu District, Eldoret, Kenya). Herzl initially rejected the idea, preferring Palestine, but after the April 1903 Kishinev pogrom, Herzl introduced a controversial proposal to the Sixth Zionist Congress to investigate the offer as a temporary measure for Russian Jews in danger. Despite its emergency and temporary nature, the proposal proved very divisive, and widespread opposition to the plan was fueled by a walkout led by the Russian Jewish delegation to the Congress. Nevertheless, a committee was established to investigate the possibility, which was eventually dismissed in the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905. After that, Palestine became the sole focus of Zionist aspirations.

Any other location other than Palestine was not in Zionists agenda.

Macha · 06-06-2010 12:08pm

halkar wrote: »

Any other location other than Palestine was not in Zionists agenda.

There have been a series of attempts on Boards to portray all Jews as united under Zionism and now all Zionists to be a united movement. Some Zionists agreed, some didn't. They were splits within the movement, as with any movement.

All three major Western religions can lay claim to the land currently occupied by Israel & Palestine. To my mind, that's proof enough that religion should not be the basis for making these kinds of decisions.

Even Ben Gurion, acknowledged the inherent antagonistic element of his plans:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army

johnnyskeleton · 06-06-2010 1:51pm

halkar wrote: »

From above article it is clearly present that the only period of time where religious tolerence possible was during muslim rules ( Caliphates and Ottoman).

Jerusalem today has Christians, Muslims and Jews living together in relative peace, notwithstanding that it is currently occupied by Israel. Temple Mount is divided into areas where only Jews, only Muslims, Jews & Christians and Muslims & Christians can go. This was set up by the Israelis and works reasonably well. There were also periods where it was held by the Muslims when they would not allow Jews into the city.

halkar · 06-06-2010 2:06pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Jerusalem today has Christians, Muslims and Jews living together in relative peace, notwithstanding that it is currently occupied by Israel. Temple Mount is divided into areas where only Jews, only Muslims, Jews & Christians and Muslims & Christians can go. This was set up by the Israelis and works reasonably well. There were also periods where it was held by the Muslims when they would not allow Jews into the city.

Not really as you describe above. I have been to Israel and Jerusalem back in 2003. Even though the tensions was not as high as now I was not allowed to visit Al Aqsa after making 4 unsuccessful attempts. I have visited all Christian and Jewish sites with no restrictions but not the Muslim sites. Even Palestinians are not allowed to Al Aqsa for regular prays depending on Israelis mood. Not to mention it is almost impossible to enter Israel for Muslims.

PeterIanStaker · 06-06-2010 3:05pm

gandalf wrote: »

I have criticised Israel because of these not for any other reason. The majority of people on this site would have similar reasons I warrant.

Yes the majority of people on here, the odd troll or wanker aside, are genuinely shocked at what happened. If it was any other country who behaved in such a manner, they would recieve similar criticism. But its sadly the case that threads degenerate into whataboutery and seeing things in black and white, and if you criticise Israel you're some sort of Islamic militant. Not all Israelis want war, neither do all Palestinians, Its just the nutters we hear about.

me_right_one · 06-06-2010 4:45pm

halkar wrote: »

Palestine was not randomly picked. Zionist movement started around end of 19th century during Ottomans decline along with the nationalism in Balkans. Palestine was under Ottomans rule for over 400 years where muslims, jews, christians and other religions lived in relative peace.

taconnol wrote: »

Actually, a tract of land in Uganda was considered at one stage. Palestine was largely chosen because it was under British mandate and as such could be relatively easily handed over.

halkar wrote: »

Any other location other than Palestine was not in Zionists agenda.

Either way, you know what I mean. Palestine was as random a place to pick for an average Austrian citizen, who happened to be a follower of the Jewish faith, as Egypt, or Syria, any other middle eastern place connected to Judaism in the Bible. There never was a "home" for all Jews. Thats like saying all Catholics should leave their various countries, and take over the Vatican!

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Jerusalem today has Christians, Muslims and Jews living together in relative peace,

This is the way it should be, only under a native, democratically elected govt.

taconnol wrote: »

Even Ben Gurion, acknowledged the inherent antagonistic element of his plans:

1 or 2 generations? Look at our situation, 800 years and counting:mad:

johnnyskeleton · 06-06-2010 5:14pm

halkar wrote: »

Not really as you describe above. I have been to Israel and Jerusalem back in 2003. Even though the tensions was not as high as now I was not allowed to visit Al Aqsa after making 4 unsuccessful attempts. I have visited all Christian and Jewish sites with no restrictions but not the Muslim sites. Even Palestinians are not allowed to Al Aqsa for regular prays depending on Israelis mood. Not to mention it is almost impossible to enter Israel for Muslims.

I was there this year and there were no problems visiting - the entry point to Temple Mount are controlled by Palestinians. Al Aqsa itself is accessable only to Muslims.

The Saint · 06-06-2010 5:43pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I was there this year and there were no problems visiting - the entry point to Temple Mount are controlled by Palestinians. Al Aqsa itself is accessable only to Muslims.

There are a number of entry points to the Al-Aqsa compound, all of which are guarded by Israeli police who control access to the compound. There is one entrance for tourists by the Western Wall where people have to go through Israeli security measures. There are certain opening times for non-Muslims and the compound is closed to non-Muslims on fridays.

Het-Field · 06-06-2010 6:27pm

The electoral habits of the Palestinian people would be the thing that troubles me the most.

halkar · 06-06-2010 6:36pm

johnnyskeleton, you are correct. I did not state it was not possible to enter Temple Mount. I was not lucky to visit ( I use word lucky as the site often gets closed with very short notice or no notice).

Jerusalem is the main reason I do not beleive there will ever be a 2 state solution in the region. It is hard to go Al Aqsa to pray for Palestinians in West Bank and probably impossible for Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinian and Israeli politicians can do all the talking for peace but Jerusalem will be the deciding point which neither side will ever agree on. Many souls died for that city throughout the history.

To me the only solution to the region is for both sides to put their differences aside and live peacefully side by side. Not all Muslims hate Jews and not all Jews hate muslims. I hope to live long enough to see the day as I do not remember a day that passing without hearing Israel - Palestine.

Denerick · 06-06-2010 6:49pm

Far too many people are eager to condemn Israel, no matter what they do. Our ivory tower affords a beautiful moral clarity - try living in a country where you face the prospect of getting killed at any time, either from rocket attack or a sucide bomber. Try being a politician or diplomat for a country whose nearest neighbour (Palestine) refuses to recognise your right to exist, who adopt the most inhumane and fundamentalist approach to the treatment of their own people, whose sheer brutality would sicken the stomach of the most self righteous left wing college student.

Israel often over-reacts or kills the wrong people. But moral superiority is a fantasy when you live in an entity under the constant risk of attack by an enemy so ferocious and intransigent to make a mockery of the very word 'diplomacy'.

I am not an Israeli apologist. Neither am I in solidarity with the Palestinians. All I do is recognise the stupidity of hairy students lecturing a nation of people under siege at every opportunity, while not even affording the Palestinian leaders even a hint of criticism.

Memnoch · 06-06-2010 7:15pm

Denerick wrote: »

while not even affording the Palestinian leaders even a hint of criticism.

Next time, before you type an indignant rant about the bias of posters or people criticisng Israel maybe you should actually spend some time reading instead of just making up crap in order to suit your preconception of prejudice.

You will seriously struggle to find many(if ANY) posters here who criticised the IDF's actions in this latest incident but have not pointed out that Hamas are a group of terrorist thugs.

The fact is that Hamas had nothing to do with this incident, which is why they are not the focus of discussion here.

Personally, I find the converse to be more palpable. Those desperate to justify Israel's actions are happy to label anyone daring to challenge the official IDF narrative of the incident as "anti-Israeli."

The same goes for this "western media bias against Israel," nonsense that seems to come up from time to time.

Macha · 06-06-2010 7:54pm

Denerick wrote: »

Israel often over-reacts or kills the wrong people. But moral superiority is a fantasy when you live in an entity under the constant risk of attack by an enemy so ferocious and intransigent to make a mockery of the very word 'diplomacy'.

Hmm, moral superiority is the very basis of Israel's existence.

Denerick wrote: »

I am not an Israeli apologist. Neither am I in solidarity with the Palestinians. All I do is recognise the stupidity of hairy students lecturing a nation of people under siege at every opportunity, while not even affording the Palestinian leaders even a hint of criticism.

And all I do is recognise the sheer arrogance of a nation that sees itself as having some special opt-out card from international law and not allowing itself to be criticised one bit.

Good article on this in the NY Times today:

The past two decades in particular have illustrated to Jews and to the world a painful premise, but one that was implicit in the Zionist idea from the beginning: If, in the words of the 1948 Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, the Jewish people have a natural right “to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign state,” then the inescapable codicil of this natural inheritance is that the Jewish people, “like all other nations,” are every bit as capable of barbarism and stupidity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/opinion/06chabon.html?ref=global-home

Het-Field · 06-06-2010 7:57pm

taconnol wrote: »

Hmm, moral superiority is the very basis of Israel's existence.

And all I do is recognise the sheer arrogance of a nation that sees itself as having some special opt-out card from international law and not allowing itself to be criticised one bit.
Good article on this in the NY Times today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/opinion/06chabon.html?ref=global-home

Do you feel the same applies to the British and US ? They flagrantly disreagard international law with the campaign in Iraq, yet we are not falling over ourselves to endorse the Iraqi system, or call for boycotts of American goods.

I think the poster in question has a point. As he says, he is neither an apologist, nor will he stand toe to toe with those who endorse the Palestinian camapign. Yesterday I saw a young girl returning from a protest march carrying a flag with the sign of peace on it, while having her face covered in the colours of the Palestinian flag. It was a sheer act of hypocracy on her part.

Memnoch · 06-06-2010 8:08pm

Het-Field wrote: »

Do you feel the same applies to the British and US ? They flagrantly disreagard international law with the campaign in Iraq, yet we are not falling over ourselves to endorse the Iraqi system, or call for boycotts of American goods.

My personal opinion is that George Bush and his cohorts as well as Tony Blair and his colleagues who persecuted this illegal war should be tried for war crimes. I feel the same for those that ordered this latest farce, and before people get all uppity, I would expect Hamas to also be held equally accountable.

Yesterday I saw a young girl returning from a protest march carrying a flag with the sign of peace on it, while having her face covered in the colours of the Palestinian flag. It was a sheer act of hypocracy on her part.

Well, in fairness, the Palestinian flag is a symbol of the palestinian people, and I for one would argue they deserve all our sympathy. Hamas might have been in charge for the last couple of years, but the misconception that support for the indentured population of palestine somehow equates to support for Hamas is disingenuous.

Het-Field · 06-06-2010 8:18pm

Memnoch wrote: »

My personal opinion is that George Bush and his cohorts as well as Tony Blair and his colleagues who persecuted this illegal war should be tried for war crimes. I feel the same for those that ordered this latest farce, and before people get all uppity, I would expect Hamas to also be held equally accountable.

Well, in fairness, the Palestinian flag is a symbol of the palestinian people, and I for one would argue they deserve all our sympathy. Hamas might have been in charge for the last couple of years, but the misconception that support for the indentured population of palestine somehow equates to support for Hamas is disingenuous.

How can it be disingenuous when they recieved almost 50% of the Palestinain vote in 2006 ? The other 50% is almost made up by Fatah alone, who, for all intents and purposes, are another terrorist organisation. This conflict is a two way thing, and we are recieving a fairly watered down, and biased view in the media. Again, it returns to the conflation of this crisis with the struggle in Northern Ireland.

dvpower · 06-06-2010 8:27pm

Het-Field wrote: »

How can it be disingenuous when they recieved almost 50% of the Palestinain vote in 2006 ? The other 50% is almost made up by Fatah alone, who, for all intents and purposes, are another terrorist organisation. This conflict is a two way thing, and we are recieving a fairly watered down, and biased view in the media. Again, it returns to the conflation of this crisis with the struggle in Northern Ireland.

And the kids? Are they terrorists too?
What about those who didn't vote at all? Terrorists?

Het-Field · 06-06-2010 8:40pm

dvpower wrote: »

And the kids? Are they terrorists too?
What about those who didn't vote at all? Terrorists?

Thats nonsense. "Wont somebody please think of the children". That argument has got in the way of proper debate on this matter. And I will have you know that Israeli kids suffer under this conflict also.

I am not calling them terrorists, im just making the point that they elect those who support, and in some cases carry out that type of thing.

I would also point out that not all Israeli's are islam hating assholes.

Solidarity with Israelis

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