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Solidarity with Israelis

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    #152
    patrickk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭patrickk


    Id love to have solidarity with the Israelis but footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication makes me wonder do they think they can fool all the people all of the time.

    http://info-wars.org/2010/06/10/video-israel-defense-force-video-of-siege-of-%E2%80%98mavi-marmara%E2%80%99-hoaxed/


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    #153
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    patrickk wrote: »
    footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication

    Oh no it doesn't. (and the moon landings aren't fake either).

    Seriously people - shed the tinfoil hats. The activists on the Mavi Marmara themselves claim to have defended themselves against the IDF, and the al Jazeera footage taken before they were shut down by the IDF shows exactly the same action.


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    #154
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    patrickk wrote: »
    Id love to have solidarity with the Israelis but footage that proves ,the sky news bulletin showing soldiers been beaten is complete fabrication makes me wonder do they think they can fool all the people all of the time.

    http://info-wars.org/2010/06/10/video-israel-defense-force-video-of-siege-of-%E2%80%98mavi-marmara%E2%80%99-hoaxed/

    That 'debunking' is based almost entirely on the fact you can't see the name of the ship - on an infra-red camera at night. Infowars fail, I'm afraid - no particular surprise, either.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #155
    patrickk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭patrickk


    Thats kind of strange how does infrared camera stop seeing black on white background .See this footage proves its all big lie by the Israelis .It doesnt matter about any other footage this proves a very serious thing a fabrication of news report to the world media .I think thats very very serious and someone has to roll for this .I dont like seeing my fellow men been made a fool of .So how can anyone have solidarity with the Israelis after this footage when its a blatant fabrication with actors.Its so funny its not funny its very very serious my friends


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    #156
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    patrickk wrote: »
    Thats kind of strange how does infrared camera stop seeing black on white background .See this footage proves its all big lie by the Israelis .It doesnt matter about any other footage this proves a very serious thing a fabrication of news report to the world media .I think thats very very serious and someone has to roll for this .I dont like seeing my fellow men been made a fool of .So how can anyone have solidarity with the Israelis after this footage when its a blatant fabrication with actors.Its so funny its not funny its very very serious my friends


    Not sure you are up to date with your definition of proof, my friend.


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    #157
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Depends entirely on the infra red camera.It depends on the paint used. By its very definition infra red(or UV) cameras show a completely different set of colour values to visible light. IE white roses are jet black in UV.

    It's not a fake. The editing and timeline is "interesting" but fake? No.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #158
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....


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    #159
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    fryup wrote: »
    israel is the only democratic country in the middle east,

    Factually incorrect. Both Lebanon and Iraq are democracies. Now they certainly have there issues, but then so does Israel.
    fryup wrote: »
    all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....

    Again wrong, as mentioned earlier both Lebanon and Iraq, are democracies. Egypt is a secular dictatorship. Jordan is run by a King. Syria is again a secular dictatorship. I won't bother listing the rest.

    Also, Israel has peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan. The Arab league also made the following peace offer:

    Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

    So not surrounded by people trying to wipe it off the map either.
    fryup wrote: »
    they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

    Well, if there basis of being defensive is on the claims you made above, then being defensive make no sense, as the above claims are factually incorrect.


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    #160
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    fryup wrote: »
    israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....


    Syria is a Republic, Jordan is a monarchy that has a parliment, Lebanon is a parlimentary democracy, Egypt is a republic etc.


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    #161
    patrickk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭patrickk


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Depends entirely on the infra red camera.It depends on the paint used. By its very definition infra red(or UV) cameras show a completely different set of colour values to visible light. IE white roses are jet black in UV.

    It's not a fake. The editing and timeline is "interesting" but fake? No.
    doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*


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    #162
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    Palestine is a democracy as well, in fact the Hamas representative on Prime Time last night said they wanted new elections as soon as possible, perhaps with the aim of forming a national unity party with Fatah.


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    #163
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    patrickk wrote: »
    doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*

    :rolleyes: Sometimes I despair.

    al Jazeera footage (pre-IDF censorship) which shows the same events (5.47 onwards): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4


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    #164
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    patrickk wrote: »
    doesnt matter about infra red the ship is different in sky news report its a disgrace and shameful to see people defending this what planet are ye living on it would be funny if this issue was not so serious as people died on the ship in question and they are disrespecting us and the dead by showing a lie on television to the whole world ?!*

    Why would Israel bother fabricating their story using a different ship when they can easily do the same on the real ship which is currently moored in an Israeli dock?


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    #165
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    Why would Israel bother fabricating their story using a different ship when they can easily do the same on the real ship which is currently moored in an Israeli dock?
    Oh, sweet jesus, please don't start using logic with these fellows.
    And to think this thread started off so well................


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    #166
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    So do the HSE.

    sorry, sorry,
    Scofflaw

    Ok, so we are getting back into the old fixed positions, eh?
    Would a little humour help?
    I travel back to Scofflaw's awful attack on those nice over-paid HSE people:

    What's black and brown and looks good on a HSE Social Worker?
    A rottweiler.
    What's the difference between them?
    You can get your kid back from the rottweiler


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    #167
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    droidus wrote: »
    Palestine is a democracy as well, in fact the Hamas representative on Prime Time last night said they wanted new elections as soon as possible, perhaps with the aim of forming a national unity party with Fatah.
    There is a reason that Hamas have no opposition party in Gaza to stand against and it is most certainly not democracy.


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    #168
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    JustinDee wrote: »
    There is a reason that Hamas have no opposition party in Gaza to stand against and it is most certainly not democracy.
    You can sing it,brother.
    The sight of indiscriminate shootings and staged executions of opponents by Hamas thugs is an unfortunate aspect of daily life for palestinians in Gaza. In fact, it is not too unlike the local-level terror imposed by Sinn Fein / IRA "activists" in catholic areas of Belfast and derry, in the not too distant past, although much bloodier and more openly, with impunity, in broad daylight.


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    #169
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza?
    Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:


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    #170
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    dvpower wrote: »
    There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza?
    Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:
    The thuggery and beatings and intimidation are hourly, but the staged group or individual executions are less frequent. Should we be so pleased that it is not daily?
    Roll my whatever !


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    #171
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    dvpower wrote: »
    There are daily staged executions going on in Gaza? Why isn't this making the news?:rolleyes:

    The disposing of all opposition in Gaza by Hamas is fairly well known. Plenty of videos online showing public summary executions etc. Just one of those facts that the media like to gloss over. It doesn't sell as many papers.


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    #172
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    prinz wrote: »
    The disposing of all opposition in Gaza by Hamas is fairly well known. Plenty of videos online showing public summary executions etc. Just one of those facts that the media like to gloss over. It doesn't sell as many papers.

    You also forget the fact that Fatah tried to remove Hamas first:

    US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory

    Now Hamas are scum, but in this instance, the other guy tried to get rid of them first, and at this point, this rather inconvenient fact is well know. One group tried to over throw the democratically elected government, and as such we now have the situation we have now. So, Fatah, and there US backers are to blame for the split, as they are the ones who tried to over thrown Hamas, and they lost in Gaza, and hence why there is a split. It should also be noted Fatah, are also responsible for the deaths of Hamas people in the West Bank.


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    #173
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    Now Hamas are scum

    Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.


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    #174
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.

    Its none of my business who the Palestinians choose for leaders. I respect democracy, unlike the US and Israel. The Palestinians made there choice, one which I think is a bad one, but then I think Israel choice of government isn't any better, but it isn't really my place to support the violent over throw of either.

    Also, if Fatah were as progressive as you claim, they would have accepted the result, and not tried to over throw the Hamas, who won the elections fairly. Fatah would have been better to let Hamas try and run things, and then got there own act together and try to win the next election.

    Secondly, Fatah has got feck all for there efforts. Israel is still stealing land, and generally making Palestinian lives pretty crappy. Hopefully, what there doing will pay dividends, but I think have seen that no matter what Palestinians do, Israel will keep up with the land theft.


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    #175
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    Mayo Exile wrote: »
    Between 20 and 24 million from 1941 to 1945. And don't forget the toll inflicted in the Russian Civil War from 1918 to 1922. Estimated death toll here anywhere between 5 and 9 million, plus God knows how many more in WWI itself, forced collectivisation under Stalin etc. etc. These are figures you cant really take in.

    a few million in WWI and up to 18 million in the repressions under Stalin.

    27 million in WWII

    The figures are quite easy to take in: after WWII on average every family in the country had someone dead or seriously injured

    Some specialists think that the psychological scars from WWII are still visible in the Russian society today...


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    #176
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    fryup wrote: »
    israel is the only democratic country in the middle east, all the countries that surround it are islamic dictatorships that want to wipe israel off the map....they have every right to be defensive don't you think.....

    if Israel are a democracy, then why don't they respect the (democratic) outcome of elections in Gaza?


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    #177
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Yes, they are scum, but you seem happy enough to have them in power in Gaza whereas the progressive secular Fatah government in the west bank actually seem to be making the lives of the people there better.

    could that have something to do with the blockade on Gaza that doesn't exist for the west bank?


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    #178
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    Moomoo1 wrote: »
    if Israel are a democracy, then why don't they respect the (democratic) outcome of elections in Gaza?

    Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?


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    #179
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Irlandese wrote: »
    The thuggery and beatings and intimidation are hourly, but the staged group or individual executions are less frequent. Should we be so pleased that it is not daily?
    Roll my whatever !

    Well. I'm glad you backed away from this sillyness:
    The sight of indiscriminate shootings and staged executions of opponents by Hamas thugs is an unfortunate aspect of daily life for palestinians in Gaza.

    I wonder why you post stuff in the first place when you know it not to be true and have to retract it in your very next post.

    btw, I've no love for Hamas. Their crimes are well understood. There's no need for embelishment.


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    #180
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    reprazant wrote: »
    Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

    how does a blockade denying food items to people of Gaza help bring about the downfall of Hamas?


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    #181
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    reprazant wrote: »
    Possibly because one of the stated aims of the winner of that election is the total destruction of Israel?

    And the winner of the last election in Israel does not even recognise the right of Palestinians to have a state.

    Unlike Likud though, Hamas have repeatedly offered ceasefires and peace if Israel abides by International law and withdraws from the land that the whole world agrees they are illegally occupying.


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