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DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No.

    The financial windfall isn't huge and goes to Comreg/Government.

    The Pay TV idea was never viable, on many levels. Read the thread :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    watty wrote: »
    No.

    The financial windfall isn't huge and goes to Comreg/Government.

    The Pay TV idea was never viable, on many levels. Read the thread :)

    Watty did You read My post:confused:

    I meant Irish DTT carrying pay channels free to the consumor paid for by whoever used the masts and the spectrum if Comreg/Govt did not take whatever 'spoils' they may have got.

    Who owns the airwaves?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    yes. The sums don't come close. The windfall might only cover one year, or might be an illusion.

    If there was the deal you suggest no-one would bid. The revenue from the Telecom services would not cover the costs.

    Governments own the Airwaves. Broadcasters and others are licensed by the Government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    watty wrote: »
    yes. The sums don't come close. The windfall might only cover one year, or might be an illusion.

    If there was the deal you suggest no-one would bid. The revenue from the Telecom services would not cover the costs.

    Governments own the Airwaves. Broadcasters and others are licensed by the Government.

    So even at the height of the SelfishTiger it was not going to be viable?:(

    Makes Me wonder why ASO ever seemed like a good idea to anybody!:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I'm confused by this 'Test Launch' idea. Either the minister is misquoted (unlikely but possible), or he is confused (likely), and does not understand that the testing has been going on for nearly two years (since 1st Aug 1998) after two years of 'trials' after many previous 'tests' dating back ten years. I know that the present government is trying to launch a 'knowledge economy' but surely after ten years of tests and trials, they now have enough knowledge to not need any more 'tests' or 'trials', and should just launch what they have. It is all there, it works, and covers 90% of the population. (More than can get TV3!)

    Could this latest wobble be something to do with TV3 and their reluctance to pay out any money for DTT until they absolutely have to?

    The BAI should tell them to pay up or lose the licence.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu



    Could this latest wobble be something to do with TV3 and their reluctance to pay out any money for DTT until they absolutely have to?

    The BAI should tell them to pay up or lose the licence.
    Sam.I don't think You will find a single poster that will disagree You there!:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    Just sent an email to get clarification post October 31st. Possibly its a public test rather than engineering test with perhaps an information campaign from then. It might also give the BAI time to retender a competition and get commercial launch up and running too. No doubt RTÉ have to operate on the basis of no partner for now. Then good and well if one joins it. Up-to-now it probably based its plan on a partner. One possibility is that the BAI may open the competition up to more than one multiplex license ie 3 possible. The field should thin now and it would allow someone like Sky to bid for just 2 muxes or just 1 mux perhaps. I suspect that the BAI will probably leave the door open to anyone wishing to apply for a multiplex license and then negotiate with them on that basis and also RTÉ NL. That way a mux can be taken or left for later usage. A consortium may not want to have all 3 muxes. I suspect Sky may go for it if its retendered with Eircom for the remaining multiplex. IE. Eircom 1 mux, Sky 2 muxes.

    You may think commercial DTT is dead. It might be for afew weeks. But the BAI no doubt have 3 muxes to license. Nowt to stop them retendering again. Rather than 3 muxes, allowing seperate operators may work and be more attractive to Eircom and Sky. There is time to full launch if its just testing in October!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    ynotdu wrote: »
    Sam.I don't think You will find a single poster that will disagree You there!:D
    I totally disagree.
    Why should TV3 pay for a kings ransom for DTT transmission facilities when the STB hasn't even been agreed upon so very few people even have an opportunity pick up TV3 on DTT. TV3 are dead right to keep their cash until the launch.


  • Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Clearly Eamon ryan and his script writing officials haven't a clue what they are talking about and are woefully out of touch.

    Next they'll be telling us that their advisors are warning that dtt is dangerous and banned in several countries... :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭pa990


    if this drags out any longer.. we might as well adopt T2.


    i mean seriously, its gone so far beyond a joke.

    Smart economy my arse


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    pa990 wrote: »
    if this drags out any longer.. we might as well adopt T2.


    i mean seriously, its gone so far beyond a joke.

    Smart economy my arse

    I think we might aswell adopt T2 at this stage. Of course adds more cost now. But by that time most of UK will have T2 so they'll be well down in price. Would certainly make testing straightfoward ie Freeview HD would be= Saorview. Hell why not call it Saorview HD at launch even if we haven't the channels in HD yet cos it'd be a selling point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Text of the first question now up
    Telecommunications Services

    23. Deputy Simon Coveney asked the Minister for Communications; Energy and Natural Resources the way he intends the facilitate the rollout of a commercial digital terrestrial television platform here in view of the break down of the tendering process in recent weeks [23543/10]

    Deputy Eamon Ryan: Part 8 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 provides for the development of digital terrestrial television, DTT, in Ireland and for the closure of the national analogue TV network. In addition, the 2009 Act requires the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, to provide for the development of commercial digital terrestrial television services.

    As the Deputy is aware a competition for a commercial DTT service provider was initiated by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland in 2008. Three applicants were shortlisted. In July 2008, the BCI announced its intention to enter into negotiations with Boxer DTT Limited, the highest placed consortium. Boxer withdrew from the process in April 2009. As a result, negotiations commenced with the next placed bidder, the OneVision consortium.

    In April 2010, BAI withdrew the contract offer from OneVision as that consortium was unable to reach agreement with the network operator, RTÉNL for the provision of transmission services. Following this, the BAI offered the contract to the third place consortium, Easy TV in May but, as the Deputy is aware, that consortium declined the offer.

    I regret that the BAI process did not result in a commercial DTT operator as it would have delivered additional consumer choice. As a result of the outcome of the BAI’s commercial DTT process, I am in detailed discussions with the BAI, ComReg and RTE to consider the broadcasting, telecommunications and spectrum policy issues that arise. Meanwhile, it is important to note that commercial DTT is not essential to provide for analogue switch-off. It is the transition from free-to-air analogue to free-to-air digital that will yield the digital dividend. RTE’s plans for the national DTT service are advancing.

    In this regard, I signed an order, SI 85 of 2010, under section 129 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 requiring RTE to launch its DTT service to approximately 90% of the population by 31 October 2010. RTE advises me that it is on target to meet this date. The 2009 Act also requires RTE to provide the full national digital service by the end of 2011 or such date as I may specify. I have informed RTE that the date for the provision of a full national digital terrestrial television service is 31 December 2011. In conjunction with this, the memorandum of understanding I signed earlier this year with the United Kingdom will facilitate co-ordination around the roll-out of digital terrestrial television and analogue switch-off with Northern Ireland.

    I would like to set out clearly today that we will be switching off our analogue system in the final quarter of 2012. I look forward to that event and the ability it gives us to get other broadband services and other service up and running, in particular across rural Ireland.

    Deputy Simon Coveney: This is an issue we have been raising for about 15 months, ever since Boxer DTT Limited pulled out of the tendering process. People have been warning the Minister that this fiasco was likely to happen. The proposition for DTT in Ireland was that a commercial operator would provide channels on four of six multiplexes and that RTE would provide free-to-air channels on two of the multiplexes, providing eight to ten channels. The infrastructure to facilitate all of that was to be paid for by RTE and on the back of that it would get a revenue stream from a commercial DTT operator. That process has now collapsed.

    I want to ask the Minister a number of specific questions. First, I agree with him that the focus must now be to ensure that we meet our legal obligations under the targets which have been set for analogue switch-off. If that means leaving a potential commercial operator for the current time then so be it. What is the Minister’s Department doing now to prepare the approximately 1 million people who receive their television service on an RTE analogue platform at the current time for the arrival of digital terrestrial television within 18 months? Some 22% of households or 32% of televisions are affected.

    Deputy Eamon Ryan: We are progressing. We are starting the DTT service in October 2010, which is a crucial time. It will take time to test it and get it right before it is fully launched in a public way, that is, where we are pushing and selling it to the public. We are now on a tight time line. That gives us two and a half years from now before we switch off. It will be tight to get public awareness campaigns in place in order to inform people how it happens. Crucially, we have to first get the DTT service up and running. We had a series of meetings today and last week with RTE, the BAI and ComReg and we have set out a project management course, in terms of getting set top box regulations in place and clarity around which standards should be in place and what channels we will put on our public service.

    When they are up and running we will engage in the very serious job of letting the Irish public know how it will be able to switch over. It is a two and a half year project. I very much regret that we were not able to get a commercial operator up and running, but given that we have not done so it is incumbent on us now to get our digital terrestrial service up and running, to let the Irish public know that and to see a whole range of enhanced services on it, such as higher definition television.

    Deputy Simon Coveney: It is important that the Minister recognise that even though he is talking about DTT being made available from October 2010 onwards, the reality is that nobody will be accessing it from October. We do not even have set top boxes. We do not know what they will look like, how much they will cost, who will make them, who will provide them or who will install them. There is total uncertainty around how we can access digital television. Even though RTE has to have the infrastructure and capacity to broadcast digital terrestrial television from October to, potentially, 90% of the population, none of the 1 million or so people who will need to have DTT installed in their homes, ready to go by the time analogue switch-off happens, will have it in October. Let us not pretend that they will. At best, they will potentially have it in the first quarter of next year. Would the Minister agree with me on that?

    My final question concerns the cost of all of this. Is the Minister satisfied that RTE has already spent €40 million putting in place an infrastructure which it thought it would get a revenue stream from? The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that it has a commitment to spend another €30 million. How does the Minister propose that be funded?

    Deputy Eamon Ryan: The Deputy is correct; we start in October and it will take a number of months to get it technically correct, have all the standards in place and make sure the set top boxes work before it is properly launched widely to the public, although it will be available from October. I am told that set top boxes and other kit is ready to go. We needed clarity on that, and it was unfortunate we could not have it as the commercial bidding process was in train. As soon as that came to an end I brought in RTE, the BAI and ComReg. I set up a working group for us to get the technical standards and other arrangements in place in order that we will have digital terrestrial television in the autumn and we will meet, with absolute certainty, our switch-off schedule which is the end of 2012. We have until then to get the Irish public ready for the switch over.

    In terms of the €40 million cost, costs are incurred. There are certain advantages if there is a not a full six mix solution; I would prefer if there was one but if there is not some of the transmission costs and technical arrangements are easier with just a public service offering. Crucially, the economic benefit to the State from us switching off our analogue system is a multiple of that cost, in terms of the new transition system. There is an initial cost to RTE but in the long run there is a real benefit for the country, in terms of switching on a digital system and switching off our analogue system, and RTE is aware of that.

    Still on track as before, that RTÉ online report created a lot of unnecessary confusion.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    carrolls wrote: »

    I totally disagree.
    Why should TV3 pay for a kings ransom for DTT transmission facilities when the STB hasn't even been agreed upon so very few people even have an opportunity pick up TV3 on DTT. TV3 are dead right to keep their cash until the launch.

    No one has mentioned a king's ransome. TV3 have not even got full analogue coverage. DTT will be cheaper than analogue, but I would be surprised if it was not in addition to analogue during dual illimination.

    iDTVs work satisfactorily for most people at the present time. Most iDTVs that have MPEG4 are already HD. The problem with STBs is that the SAORview spec calls for HD and some STBs have MPEG4 @ level3, not MPEG4 @level4. This will give trouble as they will work for the current broadcasts, but could not receive a broadcast in HD. RTE may decide to actually go with HD from launch.

    Certification will become as issue for some manufacturers, but the large ones will just pay up and update over the air. Grey imports will always be a bit of a risk, but they will sell if they appear to work and are cheap enough. Aldi and Lidl are selling TVs which do not claim to even have a digital tuner, let alone a MPEG4 one. Brittish retailers sell UK kit here with no mention of compatibilty, or any way of finding out.

    It is the silence from RTENL and RTE that is the source of all this confusion. Few in the media are intersted in publicising this, and fewer are bothered to get the facts.

    Not surprising the minister is confused.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The problem with STBs is that the SAORview spec calls for HD and some STBs have MPEG4 @ level3, not MPEG4 @level4. This will give trouble as they will work for the current broadcasts, but could not receive a broadcast in HD. RTE may decide to actually go with HD from launch.

    MPEG4 AVC (H.264) video decoding up to High Profile at Level 4 (HDTV) is in the spec.

    See this previous post.


  • Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me...
    Has simon coveny never heard of mpeg 4 tv's either?

    What sort of opposition spokesperson is he?


  • Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In terms of the €40 million cost, costs are incurred. There are certain advantages if there is a not a full six mix solution; I would prefer if there was one but if there is not some of the transmission costs and technical arrangements are easier with just a public service offering. Crucially, the economic benefit to the State from us switching off our analogue system is a multiple of that cost, in terms of the new transition system. There is an initial cost to RTE but in the long run there is a real benefit for the country, in terms of switching on a digital system and switching off our analogue system, and RTE is aware of that.

    Sorry for getting all religious but jesus mary and joseph where did he come up with that codswallop? It's rubbish and gibberish of the worst order... :rolleyes:
    These guys would make more sense.
    God and Ryan is paid for this?

    yes-minister.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Tell me...
    Has simon coveny never heard of mpeg 4 tv's either?

    What sort of opposition spokesperson is he?

    Didn't think he was that clueless until I read that debate between him and the Minister.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deputy Eamon Ryan: The Deputy is correct; we start in October and it will take a number of months to get it technically correct, have all the standards in place and make sure the set top boxes work before it is properly launched widely to the public, although it will be available from October. I am told that set top boxes and other kit is ready to go. We needed clarity on that, and it was unfortunate we could not have it as the commercial bidding process was in train. As soon as that came to an end I brought in RTE, the BAI and ComReg. I set up a working group for us to get the technical standards and other arrangements in place in order that we will have digital terrestrial television in the autumn and we will meet, with absolute certainty, our switch-off schedule which is the end of 2012. We have until then to get the Irish public ready for the switch over.

    In terms of the €40 million cost, costs are incurred. There are certain advantages if there is a not a full six mix solution; I would prefer if there was one but if there is not some of the transmission costs and technical arrangements are easier with just a public service offering. Crucially, the economic benefit to the State from us switching off our analogue system is a multiple of that cost, in terms of the new transition system. There is an initial cost to RTE but in the long run there is a real benefit for the country, in terms of switching on a digital system and switching off our analogue system, and RTE is aware of that.


    Apart from the few mallapropisms, clearly he has shown a lack of understanding. RTENL have spent nearly two years installing and commissioning the network. [Great work, lads] They have also been testing and sorting the technical matters, and have now moved onto HD testing. There cannot be much more to do. Even if there is more testing to do, that could be carried on using the 3 spare muxes.

    If it is such a real benefit to the nation to switch off analogue, why is he allowing it to be postponed until 'the last quarter of 2012'.

    Did he never question why it took nearly a year for each bidder to back off. Did the department not query why each decided to walk?

    Why is it more important to set up the BAI than to launch DTT?

    :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

    I despair.


  • Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Agreed Sam.
    If doctors were like this we'd all be dead.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Cush wrote: »
    MPEG4 AVC (H.264) video decoding up to High Profile at Level 4 (HDTV) is in the spec.

    See this previous post.

    What I am saying is that a number of STBs, such as the PICNIC box is only SD. The Neotion CAM is only SD. THey work for now but are not HD and will not work with the DTT if RTE launch an HD service. There are many posts on here about UK tellies that get the sound but not the picture. I am just warning people that they should be wary of such products.

    No STBs are certified SAORview. Not yet anyway. The SAORview spec also calls for a CAM slot which will not now be needed as we will have no commercial encryption. Will that be ammended?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The SAORview spec also calls for a CAM slot which will not now be needed as we will have no commercial encryption. Will that be ammended?

    The CAM slot is required for iDTVs with displays larger than 30 cm by EU Directive, the Saorview spec indcates they are optional for all other devices.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Cush wrote: »
    The CAM slot is required for iDTVs with displays larger than 30 cm by EU Directive, the Saorview spec indcates they are optional for all other devices.

    I was talking about STBs. The CAM increases the cost by a lot. Obviously iDTVs need a CAM, but a simple STB without a CAM would be a lot cheaper to manufacture.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    The Rhino wrote:
    In conjunction with this, the memorandum of understanding I signed earlier this year with the United Kingdom will facilitate co-ordination around the roll-out of digital terrestrial television and analogue switch-off with Northern Ireland.
    So basically The Memorandum Of Understanding has been whittled down to "We'll switch off our analogue if you switch off yours"
    Wasn't really worth getting out of bed on Feburary 1st was it Ryan? Or any bloody day for that matter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The slot only adds about €2. Don't confuse a slot with a CAM.

    The CAM is the PCMCIA style module that has the decoder. It can be expensive. Depends on which system it's for. The viewing card goes in CAM.

    There is no requirement to have built in CAM on any size TV. CAMs are PayTV provider specific. It's the cheap slot for a CAM that is mandatory for > 30cm TVs

    Having a built in slot FOR a CAM should now be mandatory on all TVs and setboxes.

    There are no proper Living room TVs now less than 80cm = 32" widescreen. 30cm is a 12" portable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The MOU always meant very little. Just a formalisation of what we have had for nearly 50 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    watty wrote: »
    The MOU always meant very little.
    It looks like it.
    But the amount of fanfare it generated on Feburary 1st seems at odds with that.

    http://www.businessandleadership.com/owner-manager/news/article/19589/leadership/irish-uk-governments-sign-digital-tv-switchover-pact


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The SAORview spec also calls for a CAM slot which will not now be needed as we will have no commercial encryption. Will that be ammended?
    I was talking about STBs. The CAM increases the cost by a lot. Obviously iDTVs need a CAM, but a simple STB without a CAM would be a lot cheaper to manufacture.

    STBs don't require a CAM or slot as per the Saorview spec. iDTVs don't need a CAM unless you want to subscribe to a pay service but the slot is required by Directive. When or if pay TV DTT services launch here STBs with on board CAS may become available and so negate the requirement for CAM or slot.
    watty wrote: »
    Having a built in slot FOR a CAM should now be mandatory on all TVs and setboxes.
    Possible now with the new CI+ standard. Even for Sky and UPC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Next they'll be telling us that their advisors are warning that dtt is dangerous and banned in several countries... :rolleyes:

    Do a search of the Dáil record in the late 90's, they were all getting a little confused DTT or DDT.

    For example
    Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny): ...

    The Bill will open the floodgates to a certain extent. We will be able to access many new stations if DTT comes into play. When I saw the letters “DTT” first, it reminded me of my youth when DDT managed to clear the country of all forms of parasites, fleas and crickets, which used keep everyone awake. DDT was magical. I hope that DTT does for television what DDT did for all the vermin that survived after the war.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    The Cush wrote: »
    Do a search of the Dáil record in the late 90's, they were all getting a little confused DTT or DDT.

    For example
    Is it any wonder then why the state is in such a dire mess when we have out of touch, lying, clueless, overpaid, arrogant, corrupt, ignorant snobs running the country who have little regard for what the general public really needs or wants and who care very little about the publics opinions. Everything in this country is dragged out not just the twelve year saga since 1998 with Irish DTT, even tribunals at the tax payers expense while they are chauffeur driven around the country with their large expense accounts and look down their noses at us and wouldn't know their mpegs from the clothes pegs on a clothes line or what DTT all means. Don't give yourselves migraine headaches or get in to bad health because of stress worrying about why the cabbages in government make empty promises and can never come close to live up to our expectations of what we all expect of them, you're all better than that, learn from past history, they are a disgrace and a lost cause. :D Only in Ireland! Things have become worse instead of better. How many of the people in four channel or eight channel land will be six feet under before Irish DTT will be officially launched and will never get to see it? Talk about pulling the wool over our eyes. I wonder will some ballad singer in the country go as far as to write a comical song about the trials, tests and tribulations of Irish DTT from when it first started the trials in MPEG2, Eamonn, the failure to sign a commercial agreement and the eventual ASO. :rolleyes: The millions in tax payers money that have been fizzled away over the last 12 years on such a farce. Easy come easy go, well maybe a few years back but not now. God help us all!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Every Sky box I had, did in fact have a rear module slot. In it was a connector physically compatible with CAM behind a blank plate. I believe it was in case either Sky was forced to accommodate another PayTV CAM on the box or that the internal CAM was so compromised that a card update alone was not enough.


This discussion has been closed.
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