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Psychotherapy/Counselling- Starting out, help!

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    #32
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    You're right krankykitty....with statutory registration coming in, it's really important to have a qualification which is recognised. See the sticky about statutory registration.


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    #33
    emnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭emnic


    Hi!
    I am wondering if anyone can help me. I am looking to do a course that qualifies me to be a counselling clinician. I have a Psychology BA from UCD, and an MSc in Counselling Studies from the University of Edinburgh. My MSc was one year long and was a taught programme and consisted of a research dissertation and numerous hours of taught theory and some practical workshops with other students. This MSc does not provide a full professional training to work as a counsellor or psychotherapist in the United Kingdom, and it therefore does not include any clinical placements. It is accredited by COSCA, the professional body for counselling and psychotherapy in Scotland.

    The two options I am looking into are:
    the Doctorate in Counselling Psychology at TCD - I had an interview but won't hear back for a few weeks - but I'm not counting on being offered a place;
    And the diploma in integrative counselling and psychotherapy in IICP - I have an interview in June - I knowthis course is accredited by IACP - but I am unsure how good this is. If anyone has done this course I would love to hear from you.


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    #34
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    emnic wrote: »
    And the diploma in integrative counselling and psychotherapy in IICP - I have an interview in June - I knowthis course is accredited by IACP - but I am unsure how good this is. If anyone has done this course I would love to hear from you.

    You should be aware that IICP is quite reality therapy focused. I did their foundation course there before. Their diploma being only 2 years is a plus for many people, but the reality therapy focus would be a minus in my book.

    It being an undergraduate course and only 2 years duration will likely be an issue when statutory regulation comes in. Read the submission of the psychotherapy regulating bodies for future statutory regulations:
    http://www.psychotherapy-ireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/download-registration-of-psychological-therapies-submission-september-2008.doc

    For someone who has a degree in psychology and a Masters you may wish to consider future proofing yourself in the course you choose. You have options which others choosing a course like IICP may not. Doing such a course would not result in you being eligible to get the European Certificate of Psychotherapy, and would leave you undertrained if the submission on statutory regulation came into being.

    If you can't get the doctorate in Trinity you may wish to do a postgraduate diploma / Masters with the likes of DCU, Tivoli, or Turning point. It might turn out to be a good idea to do a course which will allow you to become accredited with the Irish Council for Psychotherapy and get the ECP.

    Some people training in counselling don't have the options you have, having the undergraduate diploma in IICP as the fallback for a doctorate in counselling psychology is understandable in respect of having a fallback option, but its rather like having a PLC course as a fallback option if you don't get a Masters imo.


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    #35
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    Are you not looking into any other recognised psychology options eg clinical? Not only are the psychology courses widely recognised, but they are also probably better....(ducks under parapet)

    Certainly the career options for psychologists are better defined, and much better paid.


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    #36
    emnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭emnic


    I haven't ruled out clinical... It's just i'm only 23 and I'm restless... I want to get moving on a career! Clinical is so tough to get into! I haven't had enough practical experience to be offered a place and I think my age would stand against me. And besides my end goal is to be a psychotherapist and i do not wish to work with individuals with severe psychiatric issues. Although I prefer the conditions of a clinical doctorate... Like being funded by the hse... I feel there are many routes to the end product i'm looking for. Anyways! I have an interview for the tivoli institute tomorrow so if anyone has any suggestions I'd appreciate it...


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    #37
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    JuliusCaesar wrote: »
    Are you not looking into any other recognised psychology options eg clinical? Not only are the psychology courses widely recognised, but they are also probably better....(ducks under parapet)

    Certainly the career options for psychologists are better defined, and much better paid.

    To be fair, there is no need to duck on that one;), I having being advising people for years to look at psychology for the reasons you state above. If they are interest in psychotherapy they can do further training then.


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    #38
    learning2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭learning2010


    Hi, I'm looking at doing the diploma IICP, my reasons for doing it are basically out of interest but in the back of my mind I'd like to think it would equip me with the skills to become a counsellor as a career/vocation. I have a foundation course but don't have an undergrad in psycotherapy but am wondering is IICP not considered reputable at diploma level based on the comments below? It's IACP recognised.
    Are there generally career opportunities after these courses.?

    hotspur wrote: »
    You should be aware that IICP is quite reality therapy focused. I did their foundation course there before. Their diploma being only 2 years is a plus for many people, but the reality therapy focus would be a minus in my book.

    It being an undergraduate course and only 2 years duration will likely be an issue when statutory regulation comes in. Read the submission of the psychotherapy regulating bodies for future statutory regulations:
    http://www.psychotherapy-ireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/download-registration-of-psychological-therapies-submission-september-2008.doc

    For someone who has a degree in psychology and a Masters you may wish to consider future proofing yourself in the course you choose. You have options which others choosing a course like IICP may not. Doing such a course would not result in you being eligible to get the European Certificate of Psychotherapy, and would leave you undertrained if the submission on statutory regulation came into being.

    If you can't get the doctorate in Trinity you may wish to do a postgraduate diploma / Masters with the likes of DCU, Tivoli, or Turning point. It might turn out to be a good idea to do a course which will allow you to become accredited with the Irish Council for Psychotherapy and get the ECP.

    Some people training in counselling don't have the options you have, having the undergraduate diploma in IICP as the fallback for a doctorate in counselling psychology is understandable in respect of having a fallback option, but its rather like having a PLC course as a fallback option if you don't get a Masters imo.


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    #39
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    learning2010 wrote: »
    Hi, I'm looking at doing the diploma IICP, my reasons for doing it are basically out of interest but in the back of my mind I'd like to think it would equip me with the skills to become a counsellor as a career/vocation. I have a foundation course but don't have an undergrad in psycotherapy but am wondering is IICP not considered reputable at diploma level based on the comments below? It's IACP recognised.
    Are there generally career opportunities after these courses.?

    It is considered reputable, in the sense that it is IACP accredited. As things currently stand it is fine for carving out a career as a counsellor. Where someone has the option of becoming a psychologist instead (as the person I responded to does) then that it clearly the better option from an opportunity and financial perspective.

    The issue of future statutory regulation is something which ought to be considered seriously by anyone undertaking a course in counselling. As I said IICP as an undergraduate 2 year diploma is not up to the standard suggested in the submission on regulation. We don't know what will happen in the future in respect of statutory regulation.

    If nothing changes then you will still be able to become a counsellor by taking such a course.

    The issue of career opportunities is another issue. If you're looking to make money then don't become a counsellor. It's a struggle for most.


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    #40
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    hotspur wrote: »
    If you're looking to make money then don't become a counsellor. It's a struggle for most.

    I'm beginning to think this quote could be a sticky by itself.

    Thanks H!


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    #41
    learning2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭learning2010


    What does that means. What's a sticky?


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    #42
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    learning2010 wrote: »
    What does that means. What's a sticky?

    They are the information threads at the top of the page. The never move from the top as new posts are added, they are stuck there, hence stickies. Well that's my explanation of them;)


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    #43
    Andrew_Wray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭Andrew_Wray


    Fembo wrote: »
    Hey all,
    I'm a graduate of UCC, with a Masters in Arts. Graduated about 2 years ago, and in the mean time, have become really drawn to becoming a psychotherapist. However, after researching all the different avenues I'm now totally confused. Between IACP, IAPP, NCII, I can't figure out where to start. Obviously I don't want to waste time or money doing a course that won't be recognised, but at this stage I'm not even sure who I'm meant to be recognised by!!
    HELP!

    contact the Metanoia Psychotherapy Training Institute in Ealing, West London who are very well respected internationally to provide training in person centred counsellng and psychotherapy in Rogerian counselling, Transactional Analysis and Gestalt and Integrative Psychotherpay

    my own advice is to avoid what are known as the analytical modalities though these do suit the ambitions of a lot of people

    it depends if you want to be of the greatest assistance to you client or want to be seen as 'an expert' - the only expertise you ought to aspire to is to be an expert facilitator for those people who come to you for help to facilitate them to sort out for themselves their own problems

    counsellors and psychotherapists do not sort out other people's problems

    advisors do that

    society doe also need psychiatrists who will take responsibility for the rest of us to look after people who are a danger to themselves of to others From Andrew retired accredited psychotherapist - Metanoia trained


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    #44
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Hi,

    I am looking for advice for my girlfriend. She is a qualified rehabilitation psychologist from Germany (Higher Degree). She worked as a rehabilitation psychologist in a rehabilitation clinic for one year followed by a year in a public hospital as a child psychologist (both jobs in Germany).

    She cannot work as a psychologist here as it does not look likely the PSI would accredit her qualification (and we don't have the money to throw away just to be told no - plus she does not have a postgrad).

    She is looking at doing an Honours Degree in Counselling and Psychotheraphy so that she can possibly get a proper job here.

    I have three questions that maybe someone could answer:
    1. Are Counselling and Psychotheraphy (with regards to the qualification) properly recognised as forms of treatment? (I hope nobody takes offence to me asking this question)

    2. Are there actually jobs out there or do most people have to start their own clinics? (do the HSE hire Counsellors or health insurance companies pay for visits to counsellors?) I am hestitant that we would pay 20k for a degree that doesn't result in a job or a return of the investment.

    3. There seems to be a number of accrediting bodies. Which body would be best to go with so that her qualification would be recognised european-wide (so that if we go back to Germany it might be of some use)? They all seem to claim that theirs is but I am skeptical. I like the NCII as it is HETAC awarded but I am not sure still.

    Thanks for any help/advice.


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    #45
    DeltaBeta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭DeltaBeta


    Hi KrankyKitty, I saw on a previous thread that you mentioned statutory regulation of counselling is on its way, could you give me some detail about this? Is it pending or being mooted? Thanks


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    #46
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    Axer,
    1) Yes, obviously psychotherapy is a properly recognised form of treatment.

    2) The HSE do hire counsellors as do many other agencies, many work as self-employed. There are a lot of counsellors out there, they are not a scarce resource.

    3) You are on the wrong track with NCII. Don't be confused about what HETAC is and isn't. HETAC accredit educational courses, they have nothing to do with accreditation of professions, and their accrediting of a course means nothing in respect of that course being well regarded by any psychotherapy accrediting body. All the psychotherapy courses your girlfriend could do will be accredited by some 3rd level institute in Ireland, UK, or HETAC.

    If she wants to ensure that her qualification will be respected internationally then she should ensure that it will allow her to be eligible for the European Certificate of Psychotherapy which is given out by the European Association for Psychotherapy. In Ireland the accrediting body which hands it out is the Irish Council for Psychotherapy:
    http://www.psychotherapy-ireland.com/
    You can go to the European Association for Psychotherapy website and find out what kind of training is required to get the ECP and match courses from here which suit.

    Delabeta, you can read about the proposals for statutory regulation here (download 1st link for the submission to the government by the psychotherapy bodies recommending it):
    http://www.psychotherapy-ireland.com/2008/10/psychological-therapists-call-on-government-to-introduce-statutory-registration-for-their-professions-in-ireland/

    No idea what the current prospect of it coming in is, but with the UK having introduced it I'm going to guess that it will happen in some form at some stage.


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    #47
    Emmmms
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Emmmms


    hey guys,

    Maybe you can help me, i'm in a similar situation to fembo, im 23 and have an joint arts degree in english & psychology & sociology and a masters in sociology. I'm wanting to pursue a career in psychotherapy, i did some psychoanalysis in my undergrad so feel suited to psychoanalytic psychotherapy. Having just gotten rejected from the MSc in psychoanalytic psychotherapy from ucd today i'm now unsure as to what to do next. Ucd suggested i do the hdip in psychotherapy studies, however this seems to just provide an introduction to psychotherapy which i feel i dont need as im already familiar with its priciples. They also told me i was too young to undertake this course at 23, and that i need to acquire clinical expereince, however im unsure how to realise this requirement without any training in the area. I've looked at the dbs masters but am unsure about it, whether its highly regarded etc..

    if anyone could recommend what my best options are it'd be greatly appreciated


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    #48
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    Odysseus is our resident psychoanalyst so hopefully he'll read your post and give you some guidance.

    Just to say in terms of getting into a Masters in psychoanalytic psychotherapy at this late stage maybe take a look at Independent Colleges:
    http://www.independentcolleges.ie/faculties_and_courses/arts/ma_in_psychotherapy_level_9.html

    You will probably get good attention in this course too, I know someone doing it during the day and I think you can count the number of students in her class on one hand.


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    #49
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Emmmms wrote: »
    hey guys,

    Maybe you can help me, i'm in a similar situation to fembo, im 23 and have an joint arts degree in english & psychology & sociology and a masters in sociology. I'm wanting to pursue a career in psychotherapy, i did some psychoanalysis in my undergrad so feel suited to psychoanalytic psychotherapy. Having just gotten rejected from the MSc in psychoanalytic psychotherapy from ucd today i'm now unsure as to what to do next. Ucd suggested i do the hdip in psychotherapy studies, however this seems to just provide an introduction to psychotherapy which i feel i dont need as im already familiar with its priciples. They also told me i was too young to undertake this course at 23, and that i need to acquire clinical expereince, however im unsure how to realise this requirement without any training in the area. I've looked at the dbs masters but am unsure about it, whether its highly regarded etc..

    if anyone could recommend what my best options are it'd be greatly appreciated

    The clinical MA in DBS is considered a good course within the psychoanalytic community, if you have studied psychoanalysis already you should get access to it. Some people who have completed the MSc in UCD think they have done a better course than the MA. I know people who have done both, I think content wise they are roughly the same.

    As Hotspur noted the HDip or MA in the Independant college would be another option. I'm running late for work at the moment, if you want any extra info I can answer any more questions later on.


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    #50
    lookingaround
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭lookingaround


    hotspur wrote: »
    This is completely untrue and you sound like a shill for NCII with your 1st post. Nobody who knows anything about the area is putting their money on NCII.

    Many counselling training programmes are accredited by universities and thus don't need HETAC to accredit their awards. Also there are other non-university accredited colleges which have their counselling qualifications accredited by HETAC.

    Also, and more importantly, being accredited by HETAC for their educational programme is irrelevant to whether they are or will be considered a serious professional body representing counsellors. Currently they are not.

    NCII take kids out of school after their leaving cert for their courses. This is a complete joke and ought to illustrate for any serious person that this is not a body which engages in even ethical practice, never mind best practice.

    WOW what an interesting 'spat', here! I have a few friends studying with NCII, they offer programmes around the country and one friend is studying with them in Dublin and one in Galway. However, there are clearly strong views in relation to NCII. Interestingly one of my friends undertaking their Masters programme with NCII is professionally accredited with IACP and she says there are others accredited with other bodies too. If you follow some of the posts in relation to this issue I think that you will find some considerable difference in relation to people's perception of being members of many of the professional bodies so it might be interesting to consider where some of these views of NCII are comming from.

    In relation to the Psychological Therapies Forum NCII is one of the 15 (I think) professional bodies sitting on that body and I assume like the other 14 bodies it fully subscribes to the suggested standards. Those standards suggest that counsellors be educated to Level 8 on the National Framework of Educational Standards and psychotherapists to Level 9 into the future, yet many of the 'professionally accredited' programmes on some of the siteds I have seen are at lower levels that those, yet they seem acceptable to the relevant bodies for professional membership.

    Professional bodies are not the competent authorities in relation to such programmes, other than to determine what is acceptable to themselves. In many ways it is like a golf club setting their own rules of membership, but when they then declare that courses are 'accredited' it presents them with an air of authority. I find it somewhat disturbing that many of them have accredited programmes at a level lower that that which they suggest as the minimum reguirements in the document you refer to.

    In any event, it is important for any potential student of counselling or counselling to know that under the Universities Act the Universities have legitimate competence to award such degrees within the University sector and outside that sector, HETAC are the competent authority in Ireland under statute.

    Essentially any professional body decides itself on the appropriateness of programmes for membership of their own body, thats all! That is a significant difference and those undertaking programmes need to be conscious of both these things. Either the Universities or HETAC (in the Institutes of Technology or Independent Colleges) determine the acceptable standard of all of their programmes - all of which are educational programmes and many of which prepare people for professional practice. They all do so against best international standards, so to denigrade any programme which is accredited by the appropriate and competent statutory authority is somewhat problematic in my view, especially in an unregulated sector. When programmes are considered by either any of the Universities or HETAC, they invite a panel of experts, both professional and academic to consider the programme on fairly stringent criteria. The process does not just involve members of any professional body alone. They do so accross a number of disciplines and ones such as nursing, medicine and others which have the one thing counselling and psychotherapy badly needs, namely statutory regulation, so 'dismissing' HETAC or University approved programmes is somewhat disingenuous.


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    #51
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    lookingaround wrote: »
    I have a few friends studying with NCII,

    lookingaround wrote: »
    so 'dismissing' HETAC or University approved programmes is somewhat disingenuous.

    I'm the one being disingenuous? You're not someone who has "a few friends studying with NCII" you are obviously involved with them and the above detailed description is marketing not a forum post by someone who has any commitment to the spirit of the community in which boards operates.

    Your 3 posts have all been NCII marketing. You're almost certainly a shill, and it reflects very poorly on NCII if they sanction this kind of undercover marketing.


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    #52
    lookingaround
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭lookingaround


    Hotspur,

    I find your assumptions about me to be intriguing. If you are involved in any form of psychosocial engagement with clients I sure hope you don't make the same assumptions about them so quickly. that would be really scary.

    I certainly have friends studying with NCII and by and large their experiences are positive. I have done no marketing for them whatsoever. One of my friends pointed out to me last February I think, some of the stuff that was going on public fora in relation to their programme and the professional body with which I am professionally accredited and in the interests of equity and fairness I felt that a balanced response and an informed presentation of issues relating to professional and academic accreditation should be made by way of a response. That's all. Plain and simple.

    If you read my post carefully (other than a few typos) it is an opinion and explanation for those making enquiries about their choices and I don't believe unballanced.

    You are equally correct that I am not a regular contributor to 'boards' of any kind, so I hope you will excuse that, but frankly I find the tone of the response one that is intended to silence divergent opinion and in my view that is just wrong. SO perhaps you might be tolerant of divergant opinions to your own


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    #53
    lookingaround
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭lookingaround


    By the way I also have absolutely no idea what a 'shill;' is, but I'm relatively sure it is not complimentary


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    #54
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    lookingaround wrote: »
    By the way I also have absolutely no idea what a 'shill;' is, but I'm relatively sure it is not complimentary

    You could have found out in less time by Googling it than it took you to write the quoted post. A shill, in respect of Internet fora, is someone pretending to be a poster who is unconnected with an organisation or product and who stimulates discussion of it or effectively engages in positive marketing on their behalf.

    At least we now know that you are not just a random person who happens to have a few friends studying with NCII, that is the impression you chose to give initially. It's not personal, but it is the culture of Internet fora for members to take unkindly to single issue posters whose sole aim is to promote an organisation or product. Whether you are or are not employed by NCII as a marketer your behaviour is functionally identical to someone who would be.

    Nobody, and I really do mean nobody, would view your posts as being balanced. You arrived specifically, by your own admission, to promote NCII in the face of criticism of it. Nothing wrong with that if you are not connected with them beyond ordinary membership with them, and nothing wrong with it if you are and you are upfront about it. You are not being balanced, but neither I am, it's okay to have a particular view and disagree. The only thing that isn't okay is being a shill.

    Anyway, I don't wish to continue us arguing (as I'm sure you don't either) as it serves no purpose on this forum. We'll wait until the another in the long line of first time posters pops up to ask about NCII. Funny how that only happens with NCII.


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    #55
    lookingaround
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭lookingaround


    hotspur wrote: »
    Nobody, and I really do mean nobody, would view your posts as being balanced. You arrived specifically, by your own admission, to promote NCII in the face of criticism of it. Nothing wrong with that if you are not connected with them beyond ordinary membership with them, and nothing wrong with it if you are and you are upfront about it. You are not being balanced, but neither I am, it's okay to have a particular view and disagree. The only thing that isn't okay is being a shill.

    Anyway, I don't wish to continue us arguing (as I'm sure you don't either) as it serves no purpose on this forum. We'll wait until the another in the long line of first time posters pops up to ask about NCII. Funny how that only happens with NCII.


    Thank you for your response and clarification of what a 'shill' is. Im not one in that case. YOu are of course entitled to your opiniion of me and that's fine with me, but your conclusion that 'nobody' would view my contribution as unbalanced is somewhat of a sweeping generalisation I think.

    Anyway I have no interest in arguing with anyone nor am I trying to 'promote' NCII. You are also entitled to your suspiciousness and I am entitled to my view that the level of suspiciousness you demonstrate in relation to my contribution is potentially problematic and misplaced. However you are also correct that I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else. The assumption that only those who are 'within' the club of a particular forum are deemed to be 'genuine' contributors or those entitled to a perspective on a topic is somewhat bizzare in my view. anyway the best of luck and I look forward to making the odd contribution to this forum in the future, but I do not intend spending my life here!!


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    #56
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    However, Lookingaround, every single one of your 6 posts is to do with NCII. So it can be seen that your entire agenda on boards is to do with NCII. You are not engaging with any other topic on boards at all. That say something, and yes, shill does come to mind.


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    #57
    lookingaround
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭lookingaround


    Well likewise if that is what you think, that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion but it is untrue. I made one posting in February I think and again in the current thread, but the other postings are responses to assumptions about me. I have no intention of spending my life on Boards of any sort but if there is a topic that someone either brings to my attention, which happened in this situation or one I want to post on, I will do so, other than that I am very happy to look at and read postings, which I do occasionally. I genuinely did not think I would have to defend myself if making a posting of an opinion or responding to someone's query. I'm experiencing this as a little like cyberbullying to attempt to silence dissenting opinions. Either the opinion is valid or not or the information provided accurate or not. I have no problem with disagreement or anyone rubbishing my opinion or challenging evidence. I assume you support evidence as you seem to have been pointing someone else towards the NICE guidelines on PTSD. I do read postings, but I don't choose to engage in much of the verbal jousting that seems to go on. Surely that's my choice without having my 'behaviour' analysed and parsed. It is unacceptable to make assumptions about me or anyone else based on limited or in this case no valid evidence to support ill informed opinions. Anyway, I don't really want to continue with this, I've given my opinion, tried to provide some perspective to a discussion and as far as I'm concerned that's it. I'm not promoting anything, not marketing anything, wasn't atempting to hide anything (I'll remind you that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar), people can view my opinions and contribution as they choose. I can't change anyone's opinion and have no interest in trying really, but in light of some of the disparaging opinions presented around the value of third level programmes, I felt it was fair to make comment. I also felt it was fair to infer that being disparaging about any of these programmes (and I didn't single out NCII in this regard, the argument applies to all Higher Educational Institutes) is unfair. After all the Psychological Therapies Forum has recommended that programmes and the educational standards should be at Primary Degree and Masters Level as appropriate. That is not a 'defense' or promotion of any single third level institution. It is a statement of fact about generic trends in the fields of counselling and psychotherapy and such programmes can only be offered by or through approved Third Level Institutions. My postings are not a defense of NCII, they are a commentary on trends in this field and they utilise NCII as an exemplar where appropriate. I don't know how much more clearly I can say this but I hold no candles for either any individual educational provider, regulatory body or professional body, but I do not like to see ill informed commentary that might influence any person's choice of career or progression. I've equally seen today (when I looked through it) negative commentary on PCI's programmes and based on what I know of their graduates, I'm not convinced some of the comments about their programmes are fair either, but there seems to be more polarised views and dispariging comments here relating to NCII and that's why I chose to respond to that thread. I value the concepts of fairness and equity and would like to think that others in the broad counselling.
    , psychotherapy and mental health field would also value those things , respect divergent opinions and accept a reasonable 'defense'. continued 'defense' of my position would be futile and perhaps counterproductive, so all I can say as I watch Denmark take a beating from the underdogs, is I do not intend to continue doing this. I wish you well and stand over my postings


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    #58
    krankykitty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭krankykitty


    Cyberbullying, really?

    I didn't read it so much as people having a problem with dissenting opinions, rather that someone has joined Boards with the seeming sole agenda of promoting/defending/shilling/whatever about NCII. As other posters have said, that's perfectly fine once you are up front about it.

    I think at some stage or another ALL of the psychotherapy training courses have been criticised or discussed in some way or another. Nobody has a problem with different opinions once they are discussed in a rational manner. However, you've got to see what Hotspur etc is talking about - you yourself said you joined Boards to defend "your friends" training course, and every post since then has been about that same course. That's a lot of interest for something that you say you're not yourself involved in! Can you see why people might think your posts are shilling?

    It seems every time psychotherapy training is being discussed here someone seems to join boards to talk about NCII and it's getting a bit boring at this stage.


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    #59
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Is there this much in fighting between all the associations? Kind of puts people off going into this field and makes it hard to know which organisation to be associated with if everyone is biased. Can anyone give the honest low down of what is what and so on? and who is who?


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    #60
    hotspur
    Registered Users Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭hotspur


    Yes the bickering and sniping among psychotherapy accrediting organisations and training programmes is somewhat endemic. However I'm not sure I agree that it puts off genuinely interested people in getting into the field.

    I'll give you a brief sketch of who is who. None of the following are statutory regulators.

    The PSI is the accrediting organisation for psychologists, so counselling psychologists and clinical psychologists will be accredited by them. The legislation is on the books for a statutory registration board to accredit and regulate them in the future.

    Psychiatrists have the Irish College of Psychiatry.

    Psychotherapists and counsellors have lots. There is:

    Irish Council for Psychotherapy - they are an umbrella organisation comprised of:

    Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT)

    The Family Therapy Association of Ireland (FTAI)

    The Irish Analytical Psychology Association (IAPA)

    The Irish Association of Humanistic & Integrative Psychotherapy (IAHIP)

    The Irish Constructivists Psychotherapy Association (ICPA)

    The Irish Forum for Psychoanalytic Psychotherapists (IFPP)

    The Irish Forum for Child & Adolescent Psychotherapy (IFCAPP)

    The Irish Group Analytic Society (IGAS)

    The Irish Psychoanalytic Association (IPAA)

    The Northern Ireland Institute of Human Relations (NIIHR)

    Among them IAHIP would be the biggest non-psychoanalytic group. There would have been some sniping over the years between them and the IACP as two of the largest groups who accredit your average humanistic and integrative therapist. Their accreditation standards are higher than the IACP's because IAHIP require that training be at postgraduate level unlike IACP which admits those without a degree.

    IACP - are one of, if not the biggest, accrediting bodies in the country. I've always thought of them as being more on the counsellor side of the traditional counsellor - psychotherapy thing.

    The Irish Association for Psychotherapy in Primary Care - accredit therapists who work in primary health care settings. They are relatively new, their accreditation standards are very high, and I have no clue how big their membership is.

    The Irish Association of Alcohol and Addiction Counsellors - they accredit therapists who work in addiction.

    There are religious kind of ones such as:
    ACCORD Catholic Marriage Care Service
    The National Association for Pastoral Counsellors and Psychotherapists

    I'll mention The Association for Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy in Ireland or Odysseus will get annoyed :) A lot of them are into Lacan.

    There's the The Irish Gestalt Society, The Irish Association for Cognitive Analytical Therapy, Institute of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy Ireland (small group of REBT'ers), a few hypnotherapy ones some of which claim to also be psychotherapy, NCII.

    And I'm sure there are others.

    Any prospective trainee should consider that their course should meet the standards laid down by the submission to the government on statutory regulation. So that means postgrad level for a start. They should consider that their course would ultimately enable them to reach the level to get the European Certificate of Psychotherapy. They should also consider that their training will get them accredited and respected by bodies unconnected to the training course itself.

    At the moment this probably means aiming to join the ICP after training.

    A lot of the sniping is low level and usually restricted to people involved in the organisation of the bodies. NCII is the only body I know of which explicitly markets that their courses are more legitimate than any of the others.

    If you don't have a degree before starting your therapy training then you will be looking at joining the IACP usually, and many people with degrees choose to train in an IACP accredited course and choose to join them after. If you're into psychoanalysis then there are lots of ICP affiliated bodies to choose from or APPI. Otherwise it's usually some IPC body, often IAHIP.

    The situation is ludicrous tbh. There's also tension about money. For example PCI college which usually leads to IACP membership would have taken a lot of money away from courses accredited by IAHIP.

    It would be nice to say that it's all just sillyness, and mostly it is, but there are yahoos out there too. We need statutory regulation imo. At least that would stop the organisations with bad standards claiming they train and accredit therapists.


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    #61
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Thanks hotspur for that excellent post.


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