Yes or No......did they survive the plane crash from start?

TonyD79 · 27-05-2010 10:49AM

Essien wrote: »

Some people are really trying to make it a hell of a lot more complicated than it is.

They survived the plane crash.
They all died sooner or later.
They all ended up in purgatory so they could move on together.

I really don't see what else there is too it.

Since all the Island mysteries wernt explained in the end the people who believe the writers should have explained them prefer to rely on that it wasnt real.

Hrududu · 27-05-2010 12:28PM

I'm astonished by the number of people that didn't seem to watch the show at all. The number of them that said things like "they were dead all along" is ridiculous.

Mitch Connor · 27-05-2010 01:02PM

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.

If you are talking about the island, and i think you are, then NO. It is certainly NOT accepted at this stage.

Loads of people say this is incorrect. the writers of the show included.

Mitch Connor · 27-05-2010 01:10PM

20goto10 wrote: »

The creators have already said the Island was not purgatory. But they had to say that when people figured it out at series 3! So I prefer to stick to the original plan that they died in the plane crash. It's not very exciting but it gives answers. Otherwise the whole thing was just made up filler with no purpose to the plot. Saying its just sci-fi and doesn't need to be explained doesn't cut it when we are talking about plot critical situations. Situations for which whole series were based on.

so you want the writers to actually explain that evil can be personified.

Crapola, if you can believe in purgatory to begin with then you have to accept life after death, ghosts, heaven, hell, demons etc - at which point choosing to flat out discount any possibility that God/Satan Good Guy/Bad Guy could have any effect on reality, is mind boggling.

The island was real - it was a place of mystery, not everything on it can be explained or understood scientifically, just as we couldn't properly explain how Jesus walked on water, or turned water in to wine, or how God parted the red sea for moses or countless other things from the bible and pretty much any other religious belief system - these things are simply 'explained' by beings (be they God or whatever) having more power than humans and being able to do things humans can not do - and being able to effect the world in ways we can not.

If you want a scientific answer to everything, you are not going to get it. If you want a full explanation of everything, you are not going to get it. Things have been explained (and stated by the writers) as much as they will be at this point and expecting full and complete scientific answers is unreasonable at this point. Some things have to be taken on faith - such as the properties of the island.

molloyjh · 27-05-2010 01:32PM

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

20goto10 · 27-05-2010 01:52PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

so you want the writers to actually explain that evil can be personified.

Crapola, if you can believe in purgatory to begin with then you have to accept life after death, ghosts, heaven, hell, demons etc - at which point choosing to flat out discount any possibility that God/Satan Good Guy/Bad Guy could have any effect on reality, is mind boggling.

The island was real - it was a place of mystery, not everything on it can be explained or understood scientifically, just as we couldn't properly explain how Jesus walked on water, or turned water in to wine, or how God parted the red sea for moses or countless other things from the bible and pretty much any other religious belief system - these things are simply 'explained' by beings (be they God or whatever) having more power than humans and being able to do things humans can not do - and being able to effect the world in ways we can not.

If you want a scientific answer to everything, you are not going to get it. If you want a full explanation of everything, you are not going to get it. Things have been explained (and stated by the writers) as much as they will be at this point and expecting full and complete scientific answers is unreasonable at this point. Some things have to be taken on faith - such as the properties of the island.

I'm not looking for scietific answers to a fictional story. don't be ridiculous. I'm saying the creators changed their mind along the way. If you apply the theory that they died on the plane then alot of the show makes sense. Its a good versus evil story. They got found out at a very early stage and had to change the story. At this stage it was clear that tagging people along, making questions with no answers, was what sold the show. So they went hell for leather on it.

We are actually agreeing on one thing, there is no meaning to the mysteries - that is exactly my point!! you say thats a good thing I say thats a bad thing. But there can be no argument that it all had no meaning. It was made up with the purpose to add mystery and there was never any intenions to answer any of it. I'm sure they sat down and tried to think of a way out of the mess they had created but there simply was no way out. They stuck to the only tangible thing they had - the characters. OH and asked a few new questions and answered those, so people would go ahh look, they have answered some questions.

And for the record, a mystery story without any answers makes a very poor mystery story. In fact, it doesn't even deserve to be called a mystery or even a story. It's called made up rubbish. Pure and simple.

RolandIRL · 27-05-2010 02:13PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

a good point, and at least you explained it with reason...not like some people who just say "they died at the start. end of" but i think you're wrong.

i think that the flash-sideways was purgatory, because in it, they did not know they were dead (in another life, brotha) and they had to remember (via some circumstance such as kate delivering claire's baby) what their other life was so they would realise how important they were to each other and accept that they were dead and ready to move on. Jack was last to remember as he wasn't ready yet.

Jack's son could be a way of jack resolving his daddy issues. it wasn't something he could resolve in his life but only in his afterlife when he had a son.

jin and sun's child was their way of remembering what happened to them as juilet scanned sun's baby. they remembered and moved on readily.

christian's speech explains a lot but if it was in jack's head, then that doesn't count, i suppose.
i don't think that the flash-sideways was happening in parallel as jack was dying. i think it took place after he died

seadnamac · 27-05-2010 02:15PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

That's an interesting theory. It could also have been a way for Jack to feel as if his impending death is/was worth it. After all Jack doesn't really know why he has had to protect this island, so on some level there could be some doubt as to if what he is dying for, is actually important.

Afterall, giving his life is the ultimate sacrifice and by his subconscious creating this sideways world in the immediate moments before his death, where all the people he has known on the island have found happiness and love, he can die at peace with himself and with what he has done, whether or not it actually really was worth it.

conorhal · 27-05-2010 02:42PM

Oceanic 815 crashed. Some of its souls awoke in a realm that is neither heaven nor hell. It’s purgatory, (as JJ Abrahams defines it of course). The island is the only place that a troubled soul can be judged, or more accurately, tested and choose its judgement.
The Island if you will is like purgatory’s court room, MIB is the prosecutor, and Jacob acts as a senior council for the defence. The others are perhaps the jury. Some, like Richard serve as penance because they are not ready to be judged.
As Jacob pointed out, all the candidates were in some way themselves, alone, lost and incomplete, so in my take on the show, Jack Shepherd and his fellow travelers were brought there to resolve their unresolved live, and choose between heaven and hell.
But, they also had the option to choose neither. These purgatorial souls could also choose to remain in limbo, which is to say, anywhere beyond the island, which is a ‘special place’ because it is the only place in limbo where redemption for the soul can be achieved.
Some went back and forth between worlds (worlds that occupied different realities – the backward, forward, sideways realities) but these places are no more ‘real’ then the Island, they are just escapes from judgement, so while you could ‘escape’ the Island and go back to ‘reality’, that is the equivalent of becoming a ghost haunting your former life remaining unaware of your own death (kind of like taking the blue pill in the Matrix). This would explain the gnawing feeling that Jack and the others had that they had made a mistake by leaving the Island and why Jacob was so insistent that they not leave, even going so far as to venture into limbo to entice them back. Outside the island is a place of forgetting, loosing your purpose, or your path to heaven.
The flash sideways universe is a place created by those that understand that they are dead but not quite ready to move on without their loved ones or others who have not yet come to the realization that they have died. Others like Eloise for example are aware that they are dead but choose to wait in this ‘ante-room for the judged’ and enjoy its artificial reality, a bit like The Matrix 1.0 as explained by agent Smith, a place that’s a little too perfect and thus prone to having its illusion cracked because it’s a ‘temporarily constructed reality’ that the mind bucks and easily rumbles. This false reality is most easily rumbled when its purpose is spent and the judged are ready to leave it.
So, all these realities are false, and in that regard the Island is ‘real’.

Mitch Connor · 27-05-2010 03:15PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

For me, Jack is the central charactor for the alt time line because he is the central character to the program in general.

I don't understand why people would have memories of their lives brought to them in such a way just to please Jack. If they had got together as hint of destiny - got together just because they belonged, then I would understand that line of thought, but they all got together because of their memories of their lives and the feelings they had for each other while alive. For me, that is key. The characters in purgatory have memories of their real lives, and memories that Jack was not privy too. Hurley asked Ben to be his number 2 after jack had gone - no way Jack could have known about it, and Hurley and Ben talk about it in the alt time line. To me, that is another clear indicator that the island is real, and the alt time line is not a place simply made up by Jack as he is dieing.

Also, Charlie realised he was dying when he drowned - and chose to die by going there in the first place in order to keep claire safe. Same with Sayid. There are a number of lost characters who knew they were dying and had accepted it before dying, so what makes it special about Jack that he didn't cop on quickly so it must be his dream.

For me, Christian explains all of this, quite clearly - people are just chosing to ignore what he said and I don't understand that.

instantiTunes · 27-05-2010 04:14PM

Firstly Lost was an awesome show, I don't think they will every be one like it again.

My Opinions on the show and the finale are simple.

The plane crashed

The only person we know for sure was in the plane crash was Jack. he was the start and the finish.

Chritian "Hey, kiddo."
Jack "Dad?"
Chritian "Hello, Jack."
Jack "I don't understand...you died."
Chritian "Yes, I did."
Jack "Then, how are you here right now?"
Chritian "How are YOU here?"
Jack "I died, too?"

Everything that happen after the plane crash, Jack's and all the other characters life's and history's, the flashbacks, flashforwards, sideways world, smoke monsters, polar bears, the others, The Dharma initiative EVERYTHING was created by him (like some kind of life flashing before your eyes just before you are about to die).

Christian "This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you."

All the other characters were people he knew throughout his real life before the plane crash, and he needed them to help him.

"To remember....and let go"

Their storys and how they arrived at the island wether it was on the plane or not were also created by him.

Jack "Kate--she said we were leaving."
Chritian "Not leave--No--Moving on."

Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.

Essien · 27-05-2010 04:38PM

Some aspects of Lost and it's ending are open to interpretation, not open to completely making stuff up! We were told in black and white that what happened on the island was real, I really just can't see where people are getting all these other notions from.

kevodaly · 27-05-2010 04:50PM

'Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.'

Why did he change clothes along the way?

And what airplane was that taking off as he died?

I think there are lots of things that were left open for debate .. which obviously worked ...but I believe based on the Christian/Jack conversation at the end that what happened on the island was real.

instantiTunes · 27-05-2010 04:54PM

Essien wrote: »

Some aspects of Lost and it's ending are open to interpretation, not open to completely making stuff up! We were told in black and white that what happened on the island was real, I really just can't see where people are getting all these other notions from.

When were we told in BLACK and WHITE that what happen on the Island was real?

Here in back and white for you is exactly what was said -

Jack "Are you real?"
Christian "I sure hope so...yeah I'm real, your real, everything thats every happened to you is real, All those people in the church...they're real, too."

No mention that they were on the Island or that the island really existed.

All the people and everything that happened were real too Jack.

instantiTunes · 27-05-2010 05:01PM

kevodaly wrote: »

'Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.'

Why did he change clothes along the way?

And what airplane was that taking off as he died?

I think there are lots of things that were left open for debate .. which obviously worked ...but I believe based on the Christian/Jack conversation at the end that what happened on the island was real.

You don't know he changed his clothes, we didn't ever see what he was actually really wearing before the plane crash.

we only ever saw what happen in the, I'll call it life flashing before you eyes stage (between when he open his eye in the 1st episode and close it in the last one). the same goes for the plane. it was just all create by Jacks dying mind

Essien · 27-05-2010 05:16PM

instantiTunes wrote: »

When were we told in BLACK and WHITE that what happen on the Island was real?

Here in back and white for you is exactly what was said -
Jack "Are you real?"
Christian "I sure hope so...yeah I'm real, your real, everything thats every happened to you is real, All those people in the church...they're real, too."

No mention that they were on the Island or that the island really existed.

All the people and everything that happened were real too Jack.

We were told in that underlined part ffs. He says "everything" does he really need to specify that it includes the island? Where is there any indication that the other characters were all imagined by Jack? Did he imagine all their flashbacks too?

spiggotpaddy · 27-05-2010 05:26PM

a man in a wheel chair can walk. a fat man does'nt lose weight. no rescuers
ever come.
the only way the magic can be explained is there was none.
the show was a dying man.

Essien · 27-05-2010 05:30PM

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

a man in a wheel chair can walk. a fat man does'nt lose weight. no rescuers
ever come.
the only way the magic can be explained is there was none.
the show was a dying man.

Well, that explains every sci fi movie or tv series I've ever seen then, all dead people.

This is getting quite retarded.

jasonb · 27-05-2010 05:57PM

Would the epliogue that's gonna to be on the DVD, which apparently shows Hurley being 'number 1', also be proof that only the 'Flash Sideways' was 'purgatory' as it shows what happened on the Island after Jack dies? Or will that all be in Jack's mind as well?

J.

molloyjh · 27-05-2010 06:07PM

whiteman19 wrote: »

a good point, and at least you explained it with reason...not like some people who just say "they died at the start. end of" but i think you're wrong.

i think that the flash-sideways was purgatory, because in it, they did not know they were dead (in another life, brotha) and they had to remember (via some circumstance such as kate delivering claire's baby) what their other life was so they would realise how important they were to each other and accept that they were dead and ready to move on. Jack was last to remember as he wasn't ready yet.

Jack's son could be a way of jack resolving his daddy issues. it wasn't something he could resolve in his life but only in his afterlife when he had a son.

jin and sun's child was their way of remembering what happened to them as juilet scanned sun's baby. they remembered and moved on readily.

christian's speech explains a lot but if it was in jack's head, then that doesn't count, i suppose.
i don't think that the flash-sideways was happening in parallel as jack was dying. i think it took place after he died

I recognise my theory has holes, but to be fair every theory does. You say Jack's son could just be him resolving his daddy issues, but that would then make the son a creation of Jacks mind, which would be a hole in that the purgatory theory.

Mitch - in answer to your question re peoples memories I think Jacks subconcious created the alt-reality when he tried to destroy Swan Station to prevent the crash ever happening. He then imagined what would have happened after the plane landed in LAX. In this alt-reality Kate doesn't go to jail but instead helps Claire - she had helped deliver Claires baby on the island. Jack, who realised that Locke was right about the island before detonating the bomb, imagines himself curing an irreversible spinal injury, probably because he felt guilty about how he had treated Locke.

instantiTunes · 27-05-2010 06:56PM

Essien wrote: »

We were told in that underlined part ffs. He says "everything" does he really need to specify that it includes the island? Where is there any indication that the other characters were all imagined by Jack? Did he imagine all their flashbacks too?

Yes as I said Jacks dying mind created everything including the other characters backgrounds, future, presents. Their complete storys.
The dialog between Jack and his father in the church was also create by Jack's mind, as acceptance that it was over.

I don't know if you have ever been knocked out at any stage in your life but I have, I was knock out for only around 10-15 seconds only but while I was I can tell you it felt like an age had passed and I can remember so vividly everything that happen, strange things happened but its was so real at the same time. Thats how I see Lost.

Jack was in the crash and as he was dying his mind created this other crazy/strange world that incorporated every single thing that happen in the show.

I'm not saying that your opinions are wrong, I'm just stating my own interpretation of the show.

instantiTunes · 27-05-2010 07:01PM

jasonb wrote: »

Would the epliogue that's gonna to be on the DVD, which apparently shows Hurley being 'number 1', also be proof that only the 'Flash Sideways' was 'purgatory' as it shows what happened on the Island after Jack dies? Or will that all be in Jack's mind as well?

J.

Purgatory is -
"Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for Heaven."

How can the flash sideways be Purgatory if you are say there are still live on the island. it can't be possible to be alive and in purgatory at the same time

MOH · 27-05-2010 07:16PM

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Well I guess if crashed on a plain and was then chased by a smoke monastery I would be guessing that maybe I hadnt survived.
Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.
Know this show was "sci fi" but that would be my spin on it anyway.

I'd be more worried about the smoke monks inside than the smoke monastery.

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

a fat man does'nt lose weight.

It's amazing how many people argue over points that were explained seasons ago.

TonyD79 · 27-05-2010 08:08PM

If the island wasnt real how were the the others real people? The writers have already explained that what happened on the island is real and the flashsideways is not based on a time period but a place for this group of people to meet when they die no matter it be the past(-Locke,Charlie etc) present-Jack or future ( Kate,Hurley etc) Also ABC have clarified the pictures of the crash;

"The images shown during the end credits of the Lost finale, which included shots of Oceanic 815 on a deserted beach, were not part of the final story but were a visual aid to allow the viewer to decompress before heading into the news."

Also the epilogue showing what Hurley did after Jacks death further proofs that the Island was real!

Livvie · 27-05-2010 08:14PM

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Some people argue with me that they died in the original plane crash.

Tell them to take it up with the writers - they have confirmed that the island and all its events were real, and that it was the flash sideways that wasn't.

Apologies if I'm repeating what's been said already.

Livvie · 27-05-2010 08:19PM

instantiTunes wrote: »

Firstly Lost was an awesome show, I don't think they will every be one like it again.

My Opinions on the show and the finale are simple.

The plane crashed

The only person we know for sure was in the plane crash was Jack. he was the start and the finish.
Chritian "Hey, kiddo."
Jack "Dad?"
Chritian "Hello, Jack."
Jack "I don't understand...you died."
Chritian "Yes, I did."
Jack "Then, how are you here right now?"
Chritian "How are YOU here?"
Jack "I died, too?"

Everything that happen after the plane crash, Jack's and all the other characters life's and history's, the flashbacks, flashforwards, sideways world, smoke monsters, polar bears, the others, The Dharma initiative EVERYTHING was created by him (like some kind of life flashing before your eyes just before you are about to die).

Christian "This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you."

All the other characters were people he knew throughout his real life before the plane crash, and he needed them to help him.
"To remember....and let go"

Their storys and how they arrived at the island wether it was on the plane or not were also created by him.
Jack "Kate--she said we were leaving."
Chritian "Not leave--No--Moving on."

Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.

This is from the writers themselves:

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding

Penn · 27-05-2010 08:33PM

5 reasons the island can't be purgatory:

There were other people on the island, who regularly left the island and came back. And the Oceanic 6 left the island for 3 years before returning
People aged on the island (Widmore, Eloise, Ben)
What about Penny finding the island? Or Desmond calling her from the freighter?
The producers said in interviews that the island was not purgatory
Juliet was brought to the island on the sub

5 reasons the island can't be Jack's dream in his dying moments:

He is wearing a suit on the plane and airport before the crash, but he is shown dying in different clothes
Why would he dream of all these other character's backstories? Even if he dreamed they survived and he was on the island with them, why would he dream that Boone loved Shannon, or what happened between Sawyer's parents and Locke's father? Or Jacob and MIB's birth thousands of years ago?
Why would he dream about all the stuff that happened when he wasn't present? Like all the Dharma stations he wasn't in (The Looking Glass, The Flame, The Pearl), or what happened when he left the island for 3 years, a lot of which was happening while he was doing something else
Why would he also dream of the purgatory timeline where he meets up with, not only the people he dreamed he survived the crash with, but also Penny, Juliet and Ben, people who, if it was a dream, were just figments of his imagination?
As someone else pointed out, there is going to be a 12 minute feature on the dvd showing Ben and Hurley protecting the island after Jack's death, and what happened to them. How can Jack dream about something that happened after he died in his own dream and in real life?

Livvie · 27-05-2010 08:36PM

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

5 reasons the island can't be purgatory:
There were other people on the island, who regularly left the island and came back. And the Oceanic 6 left the island for 3 years before returning

People aged on the island (Widmore, Eloise, Ben)

What about Penny finding the island? Or Desmond calling her from the freighter?

The producers said in interviews that the island was not purgatory

Juliet was brought to the island on the sub

5 reasons the island can't be Jack's dream in his dying moments:
He is wearing a suit on the plane and airport before the crash, but he is shown dying in different clothes

Why would he dream of all these other character's backstories? Even if he dreamed they survived and he was on the island with them, why would he dream that Boone loved Shannon, or what happened between Sawyer's parents and Locke's father? Or Jacob and MIB's birth thousands of years ago?

Why would he dream about all the stuff that happened when he wasn't present? Like all the Dharma stations he wasn't in (The Looking Glass, The Flame, The Pearl), or what happened when he left the island for 3 years, a lot of which was happening while he was doing something else

Why would he also dream of the purgatory timeline where he meets up with, not only the people he dreamed he survived the crash with, but also Penny, Juliet and Ben, people who, if it was a dream, were just figments of his imagination?

As someone else pointed out, there is going to be a 12 minute feature on the dvd showing Ben and Hurley protecting the island after Jack's death, and what happened to them. How can Jack dream about something that happened after he died in his own dream and in real life?

And you forgot the sixth reason.

It was the way the writers decreed it.

EDIT: Sorry, you did kind of mention that one.

RolandIRL · 27-05-2010 08:54PM

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

5 reasons the island can't be Jack's dream in his dying moments:
He is wearing a suit on the plane and airport before the crash, but he is shown dying in different clothes

Why would he dream of all these other character's backstories? Even if he dreamed they survived and he was on the island with them, why would he dream that Boone loved Shannon, or what happened between Sawyer's parents and Locke's father? Or Jacob and MIB's birth thousands of years ago?

Why would he dream about all the stuff that happened when he wasn't present? Like all the Dharma stations he wasn't in (The Looking Glass, The Flame, The Pearl), or what happened when he left the island for 3 years, a lot of which was happening while he was doing something else

Why would he also dream of the purgatory timeline where he meets up with, not only the people he dreamed he survived the crash with, but also Penny, Juliet and Ben, people who, if it was a dream, were just figments of his imagination?

As someone else pointed out, there is going to be a 12 minute feature on the dvd showing Ben and Hurley protecting the island after Jack's death, and what happened to them. How can Jack dream about something that happened after he died in his own dream and in real life?

also, what would be the point of Lost, if it was just the wild dreamings of a dying man? where would the mystery be? we could just chalk all the mysteries down to the delusions of a dying man.

the character relationships would just be pointless. the island was real, they didn't die at the start, everything that happened to them was real. then they died (at different points in time) but all met at the same place (outside of time) in purgatory to remember their lives, and realise how important they were to each other, and finally to accept and move on into the light.
kinda more poetic and moving than saying it was all a dream :rolleyes:

koHd · 27-05-2010 09:26PM

I personally am conning myself into believing the island was purgatory. As mentioned earlier in the thread; I believe the island was supposed to be purgatory, but fans of the show found this out early on. The writers then changed their direction so the ending could be something most fans wouldn't have already guessed.

I don't think this purgatory island would have been in one characters head though. I believe it was a "real" place that everyone has real experiences in.

Every possible explanation of the show has huge holes in it though. This is because it was poorly written. The writers were definitely more talented at character development than sci-fi.

Yes or No......did they survive the plane crash from start?

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