Yes or No......did they survive the plane crash from start?

seadnamac

whiteman19 wrote: »

also, what would be the point of Lost, if it was just the wild dreamings of a dying man? where would the mystery be? we could just chalk all the mysteries down to the delusions of a dying man.

the character relationships would just be pointless. the island was real, they didn't die at the start, everything that happened to them was real. then they died (at different points in time) but all met at the same place (outside of time) in purgatory to remember their lives, and realise how important they were to each other, and finally to accept and move on into the light.
kinda more poetic and moving than saying it was all a dream :rolleyes:

Unfortunetly, if this was the case, the show would have made more sense....

RolandIRL

seadnamac wrote: »

Unfortunetly, if this was the case, the show would have made more sense....

yes, but it wouldn't have been as entertaining and interesting if we knew that. we still have mysteries unsolved, and it's fun to try and come up with theories that might explain them, long after the show is finished.

seadnamac

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

5 reasons the island can't be purgatory:

1. There were other people on the island, who regularly left the island and came back. And the Oceanic 6 left the island for 3 years before returning
2. People aged on the island (Widmore, Eloise, Ben)
3. What about Penny finding the island? Or Desmond calling her from the freighter?
4. The producers said in interviews that the island was not purgatory
5. Juliet was brought to the island on the sub

5 reasons the island can't be Jack's dream in his dying moments:

1. He is wearing a suit on the plane and airport before the crash, but he is shown dying in different clothes
2. Why would he dream of all these other character's backstories? Even if he dreamed they survived and he was on the island with them, why would he dream that Boone loved Shannon, or what happened between Sawyer's parents and Locke's father? Or Jacob and MIB's birth thousands of years ago?
3. Why would he dream about all the stuff that happened when he wasn't present? Like all the Dharma stations he wasn't in (The Looking Glass, The Flame, The Pearl), or what happened when he left the island for 3 years, a lot of which was happening while he was doing something else
4. Why would he also dream of the purgatory timeline where he meets up with, not only the people he dreamed he survived the crash with, but also Penny, Juliet and Ben, people who, if it was a dream, were just figments of his imagination?
5. As someone else pointed out, there is going to be a 12 minute feature on the dvd showing Ben and Hurley protecting the island after Jack's death, and what happened to them. How can Jack dream about something that happened after he died in his own dream and in real life?

I'm not arguing that the island was purgatory here, but these reasons aren't really reasons for anything. The first five can be all answered with the notion that it was all part of their purgatory experience and the second five that it was a dream. You can throw anything into a dream, they don't have to make sense.

Johnmb

Seriously though, it clearly wasn't just a dream. There was absolutely nothing in the show to indicate it was the dream of a dying man. All arguments claiming that it could be could equally be applied to any show on TV, ever! 24 is Jack Bauer's dying dream. The A Team was Murdoch's dying dream after being shot in Vietnam. Any show was the dying dream of any of the regular/main characters. It simply isn't supported by anything in the show at all. And purgatory was specifically ruled out within the show (as far as the island being it is concerned) as well as by the writers.

Penn

seadnamac wrote: »

I'm not arguing that the island was purgatory here, but these reasons aren't really reasons for anything. The first five can be all answered with the notion that it was all part of their purgatory experience and the second five that it was a dream. You can throw anything into a dream, they don't have to make sense.

Found this on Lostpedia:

In an interview with UGO in the middle of Season 4's production, Damon finished the interview by stating "The one thing that Carlton and I are steadfast on saying over and over again, and that we're not lying about is that the show is not all a dream. It's happening in the real world, there are real stakes, you're not going to get to the end and cut to black and suddenly realize that this was all sort of a fantasy. That's the only thing that we sort of need to get out there in the world, because it does diffuse a lot of wacky theories."

koHd

Johnmb wrote: »

Seriously though, it clearly wasn't just a dream. There was absolutely nothing in the show to indicate it was the dream of a dying man. All arguments claiming that it could be could equally be applied to any show on TV, ever! 24 is Jack Bauer's dying dream. The A Team was Murdoch's dying dream after being shot in Vietnam. Any show was the dying dream of any of the regular/main characters. It simply isn't supported by anything in the show at all. And purgatory was specifically ruled out within the show (as far as the island being it is concerned) as well as by the writers.

Yes. They ruled it out after it was the most widely talked about theory on the internet

It's pretty obvious they are playing it off as the whole island thing was during normal everyday life me and you are living. But, I don't think it started that way.

Johnmb

koHd wrote: »

Yes. They ruled it out after it was the most widely talked about theory on the internet

It's pretty obvious they are playing it off as the whole island thing was during normal everyday life me and you are living. But, I don't think it started that way.

Even ignoring what the writers said in interviews, there is nothing within the show that indicates it was all a dream. Nobody woke up. And even the last scene with Jack dying, we already seen what happens after he died, so it can't even be claimed that the dream ended with his death rather than with someone waking up.

RolandIRL

koHd wrote: »

Yes. They ruled it out after it was the most widely talked about theory on the internet

It's pretty obvious they are playing it off as the whole island thing was during normal everyday life me and you are living. But, I don't think it started that way.

i think you're right. purgatory was the most popular theory for the island so the writers just put a spin on it. very clever too.

the dream thing was also a popular theory. remember when lucozade sponsored Lost on RTE, they had this weird chick saying "it's all in the mind of the sole survivor - an air hostess". i'd say the writers changed it so people would keep guessing.

koHd

Johnmb wrote: »

Even ignoring what the writers said in interviews, there is nothing within the show that indicates it was all a dream. Nobody woke up. And even the last scene with Jack dying, we already seen what happens after he died, so it can't even be claimed that the dream ended with his death rather than with someone waking up.

Not a dream. Purgatory.

I believe, by definition, purgatory is a very real place that souls go to. Not a dream land. Everybody(soul) in purgatory is a seperate real being, with their own thoughts and story, and not just a mind creation of one soul in purgatory.

If you watch just season one back, and maybe season two, believing the island to be purgatory, I believe you could make a solid case for it. That's probably, IMO, because the writers started off with that as the idea.

I believe they changed the direction of the show once the island being purgatory idea was common knowledge among fans.

ziggy

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RolandIRL

but they're all connected to the losties and were part of their group. dessie, penny, and others were connected so it makes sense (amid all the mystery, i know!) for them to move on with the others

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

darrenw5094

I think the original idea of Lost was for a plane crash with survivors that lasted for around 5 series. The end of the story WAS known before the first episode by the original writer (or who ever thought of the Lost concept). The story concluded with a huge twist that nobody saw coming. The twist WAS that the island was purgatory all along.

Problem #1 for the writers........Lost fans realised the twist from as early as season 3. Writer have to sit down at end of season 3 and come up with a new ending because his secret finale twist is now been busted by the viewers.

I could be wrong on that idea, but i am just glad that purgatory on the island was not the answer and the end of Lost. What a farce that would have been for Lost fans.

astrofool

seadnamac wrote: »

I'm not arguing that the island was purgatory here, but these reasons aren't really reasons for anything. The first five can be all answered with the notion that it was all part of their purgatory experience and the second five that it was a dream. You can throw anything into a dream, they don't have to make sense.

You do know that Lost isn't actually real, so it really is a dream of some earth bound writer? And that your reasoning here, can be applied to any fictional tv series ever.

There was nothing in the show that pointed to the writers wanting the Island experience to be perceived as a dream.

cooker3

darrenw5094 wrote: »

I think the original idea of Lost was for a plane crash with survivors that lasted for around 5 series. The end of the story WAS known before the first episode by the original writer (or who ever thought of the Lost concept). The story concluded with a huge twist that nobody saw coming. The twist WAS that the island was purgatory all along.

Problem #1 for the writers........Lost fans realised the twist from as early as scene 3. Writer have to sit down at end of episode 1 and come up with a new ending because his secret finale twist is now been busted by the viewers.

I could be wrong on that idea, but i am just glad that purgatory on the island was not the answer and the end of Lost. What a farce that would have been for Lost fans.

FYP.

seadnamac

astrofool wrote: »

You do know that Lost isn't actually real, so it really is a dream of some earth bound writer? And that your reasoning here, can be applied to any fictional tv series ever.

There was nothing in the show that pointed to the writers wanting the Island experience to be perceived as a dream.

Really? Jesus, that had completely passed me by. And my reasoning here can be applied to any fictional TV series ever....that also contains a seperate timeline running concurrently to the main one. Which isn't many.

What I was referring to anyway was the theory that the flash sideways was all a dream of Jacks in the moments before his death, not the actual island life itself. Which is what the original poster who brought it up was suggesting. It then got misinterpreted by another poster.

Edit: and by his death, I mean his death at the end of the last episode, not the beginning of the first.

lmahoney79

Everyone is talking about purgatory and afterlife......what about the Island's actual purpose which I think is also central to story....to me....this is Lost.....

Island had light in centre which kept balance of good and kept evil at bay. MIB wanted to escape but couldnt as was protected by Jacob. Jacob brought plane and characters to Island to be possible candidates to take over protecting the Island. Jacob was killed, Jack took over, Desmond temporarily turned off the light, therefore MIB becomes mortal and is killed, Jack turns light back on, sacrificing himself. Hurley takes over with Ben and Des. Jack dies, others escape on plane. All characters eventually die, ones who have dies before wait in purgatory (flash sideways) for others to die so they can all meet up again and move on to the afterlife.

Im sure plenty of people will have other opinions, this was just mine. ;-)

astrofool

seadnamac wrote: »

Really? Jesus, that had completely passed me by. And my reasoning here can be applied to any fictional TV series ever....that also contains a seperate timeline running concurrently to the main one. Which isn't many.

What I was referring to anyway was the theory that the flash sideways was all a dream of Jacks in the moments before his death, not the actual island life itself. Which is what the original poster who brought it up was suggesting. It then got misinterpreted by another poster.

Edit: and by his death, I mean his death at the end of the last episode, not the beginning of the first.

We could also interpret the end of the sopranos as the universe ceasing to exist. The writers didn't put in anything to indicate that the sideways timeline was a dream of one person. In fact, I don't see how they could ever, through the program alone, factually state that it wasn't a dream, other than it splitting to the writers and them to state it factually, before going back (and even that could be interpreted as a dream if you wanted to).

At least I can see how religious nuts manage to justify their ideas.

seadnamac

astrofool wrote: »

We could also interpret the end of the sopranos as the universe ceasing to exist. The writers didn't put in anything to indicate that the sideways timeline was a dream of one person. In fact, I don't see how they could ever, through the program alone, factually state that it wasn't a dream, other than it splitting to the writers and them to state it factually, before going back (and even that could be interpreted as a dream if you wanted to).

At least I can see how religious nuts manage to justify their ideas.

Great input. Thanks for that.

FredBloggs

koHd wrote: »

. Every possible explanation of the show has huge holes in it though. This is because it was poorly written. The writers were definitely more talented at character development than sci-fi.

Totally agree with you. I loved Lost, loved its characters, loved its individual stories.... but when you step back the overall story line makes little sense and is riddled with inconsistencies. I do think that very early on, as has been posted here, the writers figured people were on to them re the island's purpose and changed it. But at that stage they should have sat down and planned the whole thing. instead they went for scenes that would have immediate dramatic effect but no overall significance. These they could just put down to "one of the shows mysteries" and never bother explaining. Eg the outrigger scene, Libby in Santa Rosa in Hurley's flashback etc. Each of them individually is of little significance but overall it points to sloppy writing. Much better if you could look back at past episodes and say "now I understand what they were getting at".