Yes or No......did they survive the plane crash from start?

darrenw5094

So much confusion over the island/limbo thing for me because, i will be honest, i didn't watch a whole lot of Lost, but i am curious and now confused as to wether the characters dead or alive when they first were on the island?

Might seem like obvious to some people.:)

Psychedelic

YES

darrenw5094

Psychedelic wrote: »

YES

They survived the plane crash and the island life was real for them.

Aldebaran

Yes, they survived the plane crash and the island life was real.

GeorgeBailey

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Might seem like obvious to some people.:)

There are plenty of things from Lost that are open to debate but I don't think they could have made it any clearer that they DID survive the plane crash.
The conversation between Jack and his father alone should tell you this:

Lostpedia wrote:

He opens the coffin but it is empty. His father is in the room. Jack tells him he doesn't understand because Christian died and how can he be here now. Christian simply asks, "How are you here?" Jack realizes that he died too. They embrace tearfully and say they love each other. ♪ When Jack expresses confusion, Christian explains that they are real, Jack's life was real, the people in the church are real. ♪
Jack and Kate, Charlie and Claire - moving on.
Jack becomes upset, but Christian reassures him, explaining that "everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some before you, some long after you." Christian further explains they are all here now because "There is no now, here", and that Eloise's church is a place they all made together to find each other, because the most important part of Jack's life was the time spent with these people. They made it so they could find each other, remember, and "move on."

Penn

Yes. Otherwise, why would they have met up in the "purgatory" timeline so they could all "move on" together? If everyone had died straight away, then they wouldn't have known each other. Not to mention the fact that some of them left the island and returned. And people who weren't on the plane were on the island.

If you're going to go start talking about how it was all someone's dream in their dying moments after the plane crash, or it was all purgatory, you may as well say that there was never any plane crash in the beginning. That nothing on the show ever happened. The producers have constantly said that the island is real and it is not purgatory. What happens on the island, happened for real. Only the timeline introduced in Season 6 where everyones life was different and they all eventually get flashes of the island and make their way to the church together and "move on" together was purgatory. Because what happened on the island was so important to all of them. If they all died in the plane crash, Desmond, Penny, Juliet and Ben wouldn't have been in it because they weren't on the plane.

I know a lot of things on Lost are left open to interpretation, but I fail to see how anyone can say that they all died in the original plane crash

darrenw5094

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I know a lot of things on Lost are left open to interpretation, but I fail to see how anyone can say that they all died in the original plane crash

Some people argue with me that they died in the original plane crash.

Tragamin2k2

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Some people argue with me that they died in the original plane crash.

tell em ther fools :pac::pac:

darrenw5094

Tragamin2k2 wrote: »

tell em ther fools :pac::pac:

They are calling me a fool.:mad: The feckers.

Island is real, survivors are real, plane crash was real. I am keeping it real people.

Tragamin2k2

darrenw5094 wrote: »

They are calling me a fool.:mad: The feckers.

Island is real, survivors are real, plane crash was real. I am keeping it real people.

Alot of people been doing this since it ended. Noticed it in a few of the threads here and on facebook. One of my friends after watching it said to me "so season 1-5 was for nothing then" :cool: They are either trying to get a reaction from ya or didnt watch the show/never really paid attention.

TonyD79

These same people probably dont get the ending to the Sopranos either even though it was quite clear.:o

Perhaps the post credits scene showing the wreckage on the beach confused some people thinking that was part of the final act and not just a homage?

Mr.Nice Guy

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

seadnamac

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

Finally, a bit of sense. I wouldn't argue that Jack imagined everything either, most of the evidence would suggest otherwise. But everything's open to interpretation.

murpho999

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

Find this very strange interpetation.

All the people in the church were on the flight except for 3 people.

Aaron was on the flight, but happened to be still inside Claire.

Juliet was there as she was connected to Sawyer and was also very important to the story.

Des & Penny were the only ones not in Season 1, but it was Desmond who was the connection between the island and the alt time and was very important so that is why he was there, Penny, who Jack did not know before the flight as he only met Desmond in the stadium, is the only one who was never on the island but is linked to Desmond strongly.

I really don't understand how people can think that they died on the plane at all. To me it was made abundantly clear that the alt-timeline was for after their deaths.

Mr.Nice Guy

murpho999 wrote: »

Find this very strange interpetation.

All the people in the church were on the flight except for 3 people.

Aaron was on the flight, but happened to be still inside Claire.

Juliet was there as she was connected to Sawyer and was also very important to the story.

Des & Penny were the only ones not in Season 1, but it was Desmond who was the connection between the island and the alt time and was very important so that is why he was there, Penny, who Jack did not know before the flight as he only met Desmond in the stadium, is the only one who was never on the island but is linked to Desmond strongly.

I really don't understand how people can think that they died on the plane at all. To me it was made abundantly clear that the alt-timeline was for after their deaths.

True it was made clear that this was the case, and as I said before I personally am inclined to believe Christian's interpretation that the island events were real. However, just trying to play Devil's Advocate here, is it really beyond the realms of possiblity that it was all imagined by Jack? I'm just posing the question.

Personally my view is that some sort of purgatory type ending was initially envisioned when the show was first created. I think that in a way the sideways from S6 were a tool to bring about a variation on that kind of ending. It begs the question though whether the writers decided to go through with their own ending - yet do so in such a way that made it seem remarkably like the ending initially planned. I don't think this is a far-fetched notion. As I said I think it was deliberately left open to interpretation.

For example, consider this bit of dialogue between Jack and Desmond which could have huge significance:

DESMOND: This doesn't matter, you know.

JACK: Excuse me?

DESMOND: Him destroying the island, you destroying him. It doesn't matter. You know, you're gonna lower me into that light, and I'm gonna go somewhere else. A place where we can be with the ones we love, and not have to ever think about this damn island again. And you know the best part, Jack?

JACK: What?

DESMOND: You're in this place. You know, we sat next to each other on Oceanic 815. It never crashed. We spoke to each other. You seemed happy. You know, maybe I can find a way to bring you there too.

JACK: Desmond, I tried that once. There are no shortcuts, no do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me, I know. All of this matters.

So we have Desmond saying it DOESN'T matter and Jack saying it DOES matter.

Just to repeat once more, not saying this theory is what I think is the story of the show. I don't. But...I do think people should think twice before placing all their faith in purgatory Christian's account. I wouldn't totally rule it out the way some are doing.

Moro Man

If the flash sideways is Purgatory and the Island is real, explain Jack's son

Average-Ro

Moro Man wrote: »

If the flash sideways is Purgatory and the Island is real, explain Jack's son

He's not real.

the_barfly1

I reckon the answer to the OP's question is yes AND no.
I could be way off, but by applying a little bit of logic and assuming that the "writers" comments about using the same ending planned from the beginning quoted by Sad Prof in another thread are true:
I reckon the writers had originally planned for the island to be purgatory land. It makes sense- the good ones being taken early- the impossibility of childbirth to kids conceived on island (dead people cant create life) Aaron would have been dead too so thats why Claire could give birth...
I think when they realised they had a few more seasons to fill that they decided to change their plans and invented the flash sideways in season 6 to re-incorporate their originally planned ending in a different way.
Maybe that final scene was supposed to take place on-island in Mr Eko's church?

Yeah. So thats my two cents anyway, think it makes some sense.

Spiritoftheseventies

So they survived the plain crash yet the smoke monster appeared in the first episode?

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So they survived the plain crash yet the smoke monster appeared in the first episode?

Yes, as all that was in the island not the alt-timeline. Smokie was on the island for 2000 years at that stage so why wouldn't he be there when the plane crashed?

I've seen a few of your posts and I don't mean to be smart or rude here but I don't think you get the show at all.

Spiritoftheseventies

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes, as all that was in the island not the alt-timeline. Smokie was on the island for 2000 years at that stage so why wouldn't he be there when the plane crashed?

I've seen a few of your posts and I don't mean to be smart or rude here but I don't think you get the show at all.

Regardless of what you think, smokie being on the island when they crashed means they were dead. It then becomes purgartory. Thats my opinion.
The beaufy of Lost is that people can interpret it in different ways. Well done by the way on getting the show.

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Regardless of what you think, smokie being on the island when they crashed means they were dead. It then becomes purgartory. Thats my opinion.
The beaufy of Lost is that people can interpret it in different ways. Well done by the way on getting the show.

How does it mean they were dead? Smokie was there all the time and people can live with Smokie around.

I really don't see your logic on this at all? Are you saying that you have to be dead to be around Smokie?

Spiritoftheseventies

The presence of the smoke monster in that episode suggested that they died. Re incarnation would be another theme here.

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

The presence of the smoke monster in that episode suggested that they died. Re incarnation would be another theme here.

Can you please explain how you think that the presence of the smoke monster means that they died?

Spiritoftheseventies

murpho999 wrote: »

Can you please explain how you think that the presence of the smoke monster means that they died?

Well I guess if crashed on a plain and was then chased by a smoke monastery I would be guessing that maybe I hadnt survived.
Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.
Know this show was "sci fi" but that would be my spin on it anyway.

Essien

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Well I guess if crashed on a plain and was then chased by a smoke monastery I would be guessing that maybe I hadnt survived.
Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.
Know this show was "sci fi" but that would be my spin on it anyway.

Im gonna have to agree with murpho999 here, what your saying makes zero sense. What happened on the island was very much real, one thing we need to accept given its a sci fi show is that the monster was very much real too. Its presence does not imply the losties were dead.
Where has it been accepted that they were in purgatory at this stage?

Spiritoftheseventies

What Im saying that if you or me landed on that island it would be accepted that the Smoke Monster is as such a super natural being/entity.
The Island was a mystical place, no one was able to locate it which suggests that those who did find it was operating in another dimension.

Essien

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

What Im saying that if you or me landed on that island it would be accepted that the Smoke Monster is as such a super natural being/entity.
The Island was a mystical place, no one was able to locate it which suggests that those who did find it was operating in another dimension.

So Widmore was dead all along going by that logic, again your not making any sense, your putting 2+2 together and coming up with 5. Its pretty clear they were not dead from the start, it would render the ending pointless. These people were important to each other due to events that happened in their real (albeit strange) lives.

20goto10

The creators have already said the Island was not purgatory. But they had to say that when people figured it out at series 3! So I prefer to stick to the original plan that they died in the plane crash. It's not very exciting but it gives answers. Otherwise the whole thing was just made up filler with no purpose to the plot. Saying its just sci-fi and doesn't need to be explained doesn't cut it when we are talking about plot critical situations. Situations for which whole series were based on.

Killer Pigeon

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

... maybe we'll never know. I think the whole point of Lost was so that the audience would be lost at the end of the series and indeed throughout the series. Thus the name Lost.

Essien

Some people are really trying to make it a hell of a lot more complicated than it is.

They survived the plane crash.
They all died sooner or later.
They all ended up in purgatory so they could move on together.

I really don't see what else there is too it.