Yes or No......did they survive the plane crash from start?

darrenw5094

So much confusion over the island/limbo thing for me because, i will be honest, i didn't watch a whole lot of Lost, but i am curious and now confused as to wether the characters dead or alive when they first were on the island?

Might seem like obvious to some people.:)

Psychedelic

YES

darrenw5094

Psychedelic wrote: »

YES

They survived the plane crash and the island life was real for them.

Aldebaran

Yes, they survived the plane crash and the island life was real.

GeorgeBailey

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Might seem like obvious to some people.:)

There are plenty of things from Lost that are open to debate but I don't think they could have made it any clearer that they DID survive the plane crash.
The conversation between Jack and his father alone should tell you this:

Lostpedia wrote:

He opens the coffin but it is empty. His father is in the room. Jack tells him he doesn't understand because Christian died and how can he be here now. Christian simply asks, "How are you here?" Jack realizes that he died too. They embrace tearfully and say they love each other. ♪ When Jack expresses confusion, Christian explains that they are real, Jack's life was real, the people in the church are real. ♪
Jack and Kate, Charlie and Claire - moving on.
Jack becomes upset, but Christian reassures him, explaining that "everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some before you, some long after you." Christian further explains they are all here now because "There is no now, here", and that Eloise's church is a place they all made together to find each other, because the most important part of Jack's life was the time spent with these people. They made it so they could find each other, remember, and "move on."

Penn

Yes. Otherwise, why would they have met up in the "purgatory" timeline so they could all "move on" together? If everyone had died straight away, then they wouldn't have known each other. Not to mention the fact that some of them left the island and returned. And people who weren't on the plane were on the island.

If you're going to go start talking about how it was all someone's dream in their dying moments after the plane crash, or it was all purgatory, you may as well say that there was never any plane crash in the beginning. That nothing on the show ever happened. The producers have constantly said that the island is real and it is not purgatory. What happens on the island, happened for real. Only the timeline introduced in Season 6 where everyones life was different and they all eventually get flashes of the island and make their way to the church together and "move on" together was purgatory. Because what happened on the island was so important to all of them. If they all died in the plane crash, Desmond, Penny, Juliet and Ben wouldn't have been in it because they weren't on the plane.

I know a lot of things on Lost are left open to interpretation, but I fail to see how anyone can say that they all died in the original plane crash

darrenw5094

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I know a lot of things on Lost are left open to interpretation, but I fail to see how anyone can say that they all died in the original plane crash

Some people argue with me that they died in the original plane crash.

Tragamin2k2

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Some people argue with me that they died in the original plane crash.

tell em ther fools :pac::pac:

darrenw5094

Tragamin2k2 wrote: »

tell em ther fools :pac::pac:

They are calling me a fool.:mad: The feckers.

Island is real, survivors are real, plane crash was real. I am keeping it real people.

Tragamin2k2

darrenw5094 wrote: »

They are calling me a fool.:mad: The feckers.

Island is real, survivors are real, plane crash was real. I am keeping it real people.

Alot of people been doing this since it ended. Noticed it in a few of the threads here and on facebook. One of my friends after watching it said to me "so season 1-5 was for nothing then" :cool: They are either trying to get a reaction from ya or didnt watch the show/never really paid attention.

TonyD79

These same people probably dont get the ending to the Sopranos either even though it was quite clear.:o

Perhaps the post credits scene showing the wreckage on the beach confused some people thinking that was part of the final act and not just a homage?

Mr.Nice Guy

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

seadnamac

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

Finally, a bit of sense. I wouldn't argue that Jack imagined everything either, most of the evidence would suggest otherwise. But everything's open to interpretation.

murpho999

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me people are putting an awful lot of faith in Christian's explanation. I actually think it is possible that Jack did imagine up all the events of the show. I'm inclined to believe Christian personally but I believe this was purposely left open to interpretation by the writers, probably because this was the initial plan for the show when it was first set up.

A lot of people have wondered why the likes of Lapidus weren't there in the church and again I reckon this was deliberate. I think this is an accurate list of those who were there with Jack in the church: Christian, Kate, Hurley, Libby, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, Penny, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, Sayid, Boone, Shannon, Locke, Rose and Bernard.

Note that most of these people were either on the flight or known to Jack previously, like Des and Penny (from the stadium). As far as I can see only Juliet and Aaron were not there on the initial flight. I guess this could be explained by saying Juliet was his invented wife (as was the case in the sideways) and that Aaron was a manifestation of his desire to be a father figure.

Again I'd like to stress this is NOT what I think is the story of the show. I'm just saying I think it was carefully orchestrated so that people could interpret it in this way. Unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious I don't see why this notion should be so readily dismissed.

Find this very strange interpetation.

All the people in the church were on the flight except for 3 people.

Aaron was on the flight, but happened to be still inside Claire.

Juliet was there as she was connected to Sawyer and was also very important to the story.

Des & Penny were the only ones not in Season 1, but it was Desmond who was the connection between the island and the alt time and was very important so that is why he was there, Penny, who Jack did not know before the flight as he only met Desmond in the stadium, is the only one who was never on the island but is linked to Desmond strongly.

I really don't understand how people can think that they died on the plane at all. To me it was made abundantly clear that the alt-timeline was for after their deaths.

Mr.Nice Guy

murpho999 wrote: »

Find this very strange interpetation.

All the people in the church were on the flight except for 3 people.

Aaron was on the flight, but happened to be still inside Claire.

Juliet was there as she was connected to Sawyer and was also very important to the story.

Des & Penny were the only ones not in Season 1, but it was Desmond who was the connection between the island and the alt time and was very important so that is why he was there, Penny, who Jack did not know before the flight as he only met Desmond in the stadium, is the only one who was never on the island but is linked to Desmond strongly.

I really don't understand how people can think that they died on the plane at all. To me it was made abundantly clear that the alt-timeline was for after their deaths.

True it was made clear that this was the case, and as I said before I personally am inclined to believe Christian's interpretation that the island events were real. However, just trying to play Devil's Advocate here, is it really beyond the realms of possiblity that it was all imagined by Jack? I'm just posing the question.

Personally my view is that some sort of purgatory type ending was initially envisioned when the show was first created. I think that in a way the sideways from S6 were a tool to bring about a variation on that kind of ending. It begs the question though whether the writers decided to go through with their own ending - yet do so in such a way that made it seem remarkably like the ending initially planned. I don't think this is a far-fetched notion. As I said I think it was deliberately left open to interpretation.

For example, consider this bit of dialogue between Jack and Desmond which could have huge significance:

DESMOND: This doesn't matter, you know.

JACK: Excuse me?

DESMOND: Him destroying the island, you destroying him. It doesn't matter. You know, you're gonna lower me into that light, and I'm gonna go somewhere else. A place where we can be with the ones we love, and not have to ever think about this damn island again. And you know the best part, Jack?

JACK: What?

DESMOND: You're in this place. You know, we sat next to each other on Oceanic 815. It never crashed. We spoke to each other. You seemed happy. You know, maybe I can find a way to bring you there too.

JACK: Desmond, I tried that once. There are no shortcuts, no do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me, I know. All of this matters.

So we have Desmond saying it DOESN'T matter and Jack saying it DOES matter.

Just to repeat once more, not saying this theory is what I think is the story of the show. I don't. But...I do think people should think twice before placing all their faith in purgatory Christian's account. I wouldn't totally rule it out the way some are doing.

Moro Man

If the flash sideways is Purgatory and the Island is real, explain Jack's son

Average-Ro

Moro Man wrote: »

If the flash sideways is Purgatory and the Island is real, explain Jack's son

He's not real.

the_barfly1

I reckon the answer to the OP's question is yes AND no.
I could be way off, but by applying a little bit of logic and assuming that the "writers" comments about using the same ending planned from the beginning quoted by Sad Prof in another thread are true:
I reckon the writers had originally planned for the island to be purgatory land. It makes sense- the good ones being taken early- the impossibility of childbirth to kids conceived on island (dead people cant create life) Aaron would have been dead too so thats why Claire could give birth...
I think when they realised they had a few more seasons to fill that they decided to change their plans and invented the flash sideways in season 6 to re-incorporate their originally planned ending in a different way.
Maybe that final scene was supposed to take place on-island in Mr Eko's church?

Yeah. So thats my two cents anyway, think it makes some sense.

Spiritoftheseventies

So they survived the plain crash yet the smoke monster appeared in the first episode?

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So they survived the plain crash yet the smoke monster appeared in the first episode?

Yes, as all that was in the island not the alt-timeline. Smokie was on the island for 2000 years at that stage so why wouldn't he be there when the plane crashed?

I've seen a few of your posts and I don't mean to be smart or rude here but I don't think you get the show at all.

Spiritoftheseventies

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes, as all that was in the island not the alt-timeline. Smokie was on the island for 2000 years at that stage so why wouldn't he be there when the plane crashed?

I've seen a few of your posts and I don't mean to be smart or rude here but I don't think you get the show at all.

Regardless of what you think, smokie being on the island when they crashed means they were dead. It then becomes purgartory. Thats my opinion.
The beaufy of Lost is that people can interpret it in different ways. Well done by the way on getting the show.

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Regardless of what you think, smokie being on the island when they crashed means they were dead. It then becomes purgartory. Thats my opinion.
The beaufy of Lost is that people can interpret it in different ways. Well done by the way on getting the show.

How does it mean they were dead? Smokie was there all the time and people can live with Smokie around.

I really don't see your logic on this at all? Are you saying that you have to be dead to be around Smokie?

Spiritoftheseventies

The presence of the smoke monster in that episode suggested that they died. Re incarnation would be another theme here.

murpho999

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

The presence of the smoke monster in that episode suggested that they died. Re incarnation would be another theme here.

Can you please explain how you think that the presence of the smoke monster means that they died?

Spiritoftheseventies

murpho999 wrote: »

Can you please explain how you think that the presence of the smoke monster means that they died?

Well I guess if crashed on a plain and was then chased by a smoke monastery I would be guessing that maybe I hadnt survived.
Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.
Know this show was "sci fi" but that would be my spin on it anyway.

Essien

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Well I guess if crashed on a plain and was then chased by a smoke monastery I would be guessing that maybe I hadnt survived.
Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.
Know this show was "sci fi" but that would be my spin on it anyway.

Im gonna have to agree with murpho999 here, what your saying makes zero sense. What happened on the island was very much real, one thing we need to accept given its a sci fi show is that the monster was very much real too. Its presence does not imply the losties were dead.
Where has it been accepted that they were in purgatory at this stage?

Spiritoftheseventies

What Im saying that if you or me landed on that island it would be accepted that the Smoke Monster is as such a super natural being/entity.
The Island was a mystical place, no one was able to locate it which suggests that those who did find it was operating in another dimension.

Essien

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

What Im saying that if you or me landed on that island it would be accepted that the Smoke Monster is as such a super natural being/entity.
The Island was a mystical place, no one was able to locate it which suggests that those who did find it was operating in another dimension.

So Widmore was dead all along going by that logic, again your not making any sense, your putting 2+2 together and coming up with 5. Its pretty clear they were not dead from the start, it would render the ending pointless. These people were important to each other due to events that happened in their real (albeit strange) lives.

20goto10

The creators have already said the Island was not purgatory. But they had to say that when people figured it out at series 3! So I prefer to stick to the original plan that they died in the plane crash. It's not very exciting but it gives answers. Otherwise the whole thing was just made up filler with no purpose to the plot. Saying its just sci-fi and doesn't need to be explained doesn't cut it when we are talking about plot critical situations. Situations for which whole series were based on.

Killer Pigeon

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

... maybe we'll never know. I think the whole point of Lost was so that the audience would be lost at the end of the series and indeed throughout the series. Thus the name Lost.

Essien

Some people are really trying to make it a hell of a lot more complicated than it is.

They survived the plane crash.
They all died sooner or later.
They all ended up in purgatory so they could move on together.

I really don't see what else there is too it.

TonyD79

Essien wrote: »

Some people are really trying to make it a hell of a lot more complicated than it is.

They survived the plane crash.
They all died sooner or later.
They all ended up in purgatory so they could move on together.

I really don't see what else there is too it.

Since all the Island mysteries wernt explained in the end the people who believe the writers should have explained them prefer to rely on that it wasnt real.

Hrududu

I'm astonished by the number of people that didn't seem to watch the show at all. The number of them that said things like "they were dead all along" is ridiculous.

Mitch Connor

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Its accepted they were in purgatory at this stage.

If you are talking about the island, and i think you are, then NO. It is certainly NOT accepted at this stage.

Loads of people say this is incorrect. the writers of the show included.

Mitch Connor

20goto10 wrote: »

The creators have already said the Island was not purgatory. But they had to say that when people figured it out at series 3! So I prefer to stick to the original plan that they died in the plane crash. It's not very exciting but it gives answers. Otherwise the whole thing was just made up filler with no purpose to the plot. Saying its just sci-fi and doesn't need to be explained doesn't cut it when we are talking about plot critical situations. Situations for which whole series were based on.

so you want the writers to actually explain that evil can be personified.

Crapola, if you can believe in purgatory to begin with then you have to accept life after death, ghosts, heaven, hell, demons etc - at which point choosing to flat out discount any possibility that God/Satan Good Guy/Bad Guy could have any effect on reality, is mind boggling.

The island was real - it was a place of mystery, not everything on it can be explained or understood scientifically, just as we couldn't properly explain how Jesus walked on water, or turned water in to wine, or how God parted the red sea for moses or countless other things from the bible and pretty much any other religious belief system - these things are simply 'explained' by beings (be they God or whatever) having more power than humans and being able to do things humans can not do - and being able to effect the world in ways we can not.

If you want a scientific answer to everything, you are not going to get it. If you want a full explanation of everything, you are not going to get it. Things have been explained (and stated by the writers) as much as they will be at this point and expecting full and complete scientific answers is unreasonable at this point. Some things have to be taken on faith - such as the properties of the island.

molloyjh

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

20goto10

Mitch Connor wrote: »

so you want the writers to actually explain that evil can be personified.

Crapola, if you can believe in purgatory to begin with then you have to accept life after death, ghosts, heaven, hell, demons etc - at which point choosing to flat out discount any possibility that God/Satan Good Guy/Bad Guy could have any effect on reality, is mind boggling.

The island was real - it was a place of mystery, not everything on it can be explained or understood scientifically, just as we couldn't properly explain how Jesus walked on water, or turned water in to wine, or how God parted the red sea for moses or countless other things from the bible and pretty much any other religious belief system - these things are simply 'explained' by beings (be they God or whatever) having more power than humans and being able to do things humans can not do - and being able to effect the world in ways we can not.

If you want a scientific answer to everything, you are not going to get it. If you want a full explanation of everything, you are not going to get it. Things have been explained (and stated by the writers) as much as they will be at this point and expecting full and complete scientific answers is unreasonable at this point. Some things have to be taken on faith - such as the properties of the island.

I'm not looking for scietific answers to a fictional story. don't be ridiculous. I'm saying the creators changed their mind along the way. If you apply the theory that they died on the plane then alot of the show makes sense. Its a good versus evil story. They got found out at a very early stage and had to change the story. At this stage it was clear that tagging people along, making questions with no answers, was what sold the show. So they went hell for leather on it.

We are actually agreeing on one thing, there is no meaning to the mysteries - that is exactly my point!! you say thats a good thing I say thats a bad thing. But there can be no argument that it all had no meaning. It was made up with the purpose to add mystery and there was never any intenions to answer any of it. I'm sure they sat down and tried to think of a way out of the mess they had created but there simply was no way out. They stuck to the only tangible thing they had - the characters. OH and asked a few new questions and answered those, so people would go ahh look, they have answered some questions.

And for the record, a mystery story without any answers makes a very poor mystery story. In fact, it doesn't even deserve to be called a mystery or even a story. It's called made up rubbish. Pure and simple.

RolandIRL

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

a good point, and at least you explained it with reason...not like some people who just say "they died at the start. end of" but i think you're wrong.

i think that the flash-sideways was purgatory, because in it, they did not know they were dead (in another life, brotha) and they had to remember (via some circumstance such as kate delivering claire's baby) what their other life was so they would realise how important they were to each other and accept that they were dead and ready to move on. Jack was last to remember as he wasn't ready yet.

Jack's son could be a way of jack resolving his daddy issues. it wasn't something he could resolve in his life but only in his afterlife when he had a son.

jin and sun's child was their way of remembering what happened to them as juilet scanned sun's baby. they remembered and moved on readily.

christian's speech explains a lot but if it was in jack's head, then that doesn't count, i suppose.
i don't think that the flash-sideways was happening in parallel as jack was dying. i think it took place after he died

seadnamac

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

That's an interesting theory. It could also have been a way for Jack to feel as if his impending death is/was worth it. After all Jack doesn't really know why he has had to protect this island, so on some level there could be some doubt as to if what he is dying for, is actually important.

Afterall, giving his life is the ultimate sacrifice and by his subconscious creating this sideways world in the immediate moments before his death, where all the people he has known on the island have found happiness and love, he can die at peace with himself and with what he has done, whether or not it actually really was worth it.

conorhal

Oceanic 815 crashed. Some of its souls awoke in a realm that is neither heaven nor hell. It’s purgatory, (as JJ Abrahams defines it of course). The island is the only place that a troubled soul can be judged, or more accurately, tested and choose its judgement.
The Island if you will is like purgatory’s court room, MIB is the prosecutor, and Jacob acts as a senior council for the defence. The others are perhaps the jury. Some, like Richard serve as penance because they are not ready to be judged.
As Jacob pointed out, all the candidates were in some way themselves, alone, lost and incomplete, so in my take on the show, Jack Shepherd and his fellow travelers were brought there to resolve their unresolved live, and choose between heaven and hell.
But, they also had the option to choose neither. These purgatorial souls could also choose to remain in limbo, which is to say, anywhere beyond the island, which is a ‘special place’ because it is the only place in limbo where redemption for the soul can be achieved.
Some went back and forth between worlds (worlds that occupied different realities – the backward, forward, sideways realities) but these places are no more ‘real’ then the Island, they are just escapes from judgement, so while you could ‘escape’ the Island and go back to ‘reality’, that is the equivalent of becoming a ghost haunting your former life remaining unaware of your own death (kind of like taking the blue pill in the Matrix). This would explain the gnawing feeling that Jack and the others had that they had made a mistake by leaving the Island and why Jacob was so insistent that they not leave, even going so far as to venture into limbo to entice them back. Outside the island is a place of forgetting, loosing your purpose, or your path to heaven.
The flash sideways universe is a place created by those that understand that they are dead but not quite ready to move on without their loved ones or others who have not yet come to the realization that they have died. Others like Eloise for example are aware that they are dead but choose to wait in this ‘ante-room for the judged’ and enjoy its artificial reality, a bit like The Matrix 1.0 as explained by agent Smith, a place that’s a little too perfect and thus prone to having its illusion cracked because it’s a ‘temporarily constructed reality’ that the mind bucks and easily rumbles. This false reality is most easily rumbled when its purpose is spent and the judged are ready to leave it.
So, all these realities are false, and in that regard the Island is ‘real’.

Mitch Connor

molloyjh wrote: »

I wasn't an avid Lost fan. I followed it over the years enough to keep up pretty much with the overall story-line. My take matches up to most peoples as follows:

1. They survived the crash and most of the series was real.
2. The alt-reality was in Jacks head. I don't believe it was purgatory or whatever it was Jacks subconcious dealing with his death. I'll go into that more after.
3. Those that escaped on the plane survived.
4. Not everything about the island or on the island needs to be explained. It bugs the hell out of me that people need to have explanations for everything. Sometimes things are better a mystery.

Now back to point 2. Watching the last episode I thought the conclusion of many of the characters story-arcs in the alt-reality was some of the most moving TV I'd seen in a long time. The Jin and Sun piece in particular was amazing. And while I can see how Christians explanation at the end makes a certain amount of sense the one thing I can't tie back in is the fact that Jack was the central character to all of that.

He was the last to realise he was dead despite the fact that he knew full well as he was dying that he was dying (and went down to the light accepting his fate). Kate and Sawyer survived yet they were able to deal with it far quicker, and more readily, than Jack. I think it was Jacks need for a happy ending for everyone that drove the alt-reality. And the alt-reality was playing out in Jacks head alongside what was really happening on the island, which is why everyone slowly but surely started to realise they were dead as Jack was beginning to accept his own fate. It was only as he was dying (or facing up to it) that the whole "everyone is already dead" came into it.

And what would be the point in Jin and Suns baby surviving in the alt-reality if they were all already dead. To me this was Jack reacting to their real death by creating a reality for himself where they survived and were set to live a happy life having not crashed on the island. And all of the couples from the island hooked up in the alt-reality as though they were destined for one another, which to me suggests Jack was just linking them all up regardless of the real-world. That's why there were no other characters in the alt-reality (other than the son which I'll get to) other than those from the island.

Jacks regret at not believing Locke manifested itself in his curing Locke in the alt-reality. The son he never had is best explained with this explanation rather than a limbo type one.

What does anyone else think?

For me, Jack is the central charactor for the alt time line because he is the central character to the program in general.

I don't understand why people would have memories of their lives brought to them in such a way just to please Jack. If they had got together as hint of destiny - got together just because they belonged, then I would understand that line of thought, but they all got together because of their memories of their lives and the feelings they had for each other while alive. For me, that is key. The characters in purgatory have memories of their real lives, and memories that Jack was not privy too. Hurley asked Ben to be his number 2 after jack had gone - no way Jack could have known about it, and Hurley and Ben talk about it in the alt time line. To me, that is another clear indicator that the island is real, and the alt time line is not a place simply made up by Jack as he is dieing.

Also, Charlie realised he was dying when he drowned - and chose to die by going there in the first place in order to keep claire safe. Same with Sayid. There are a number of lost characters who knew they were dying and had accepted it before dying, so what makes it special about Jack that he didn't cop on quickly so it must be his dream.

For me, Christian explains all of this, quite clearly - people are just chosing to ignore what he said and I don't understand that.

instantiTunes

Firstly Lost was an awesome show, I don't think they will every be one like it again.


My Opinions on the show and the finale are simple.


The plane crashed

The only person we know for sure was in the plane crash was Jack. he was the start and the finish.

Chritian "Hey, kiddo."
Jack "Dad?"
Chritian "Hello, Jack."
Jack "I don't understand...you died."
Chritian "Yes, I did."
Jack "Then, how are you here right now?"
Chritian "How are YOU here?"
Jack "I died, too?"

Everything that happen after the plane crash, Jack's and all the other characters life's and history's, the flashbacks, flashforwards, sideways world, smoke monsters, polar bears, the others, The Dharma initiative EVERYTHING was created by him (like some kind of life flashing before your eyes just before you are about to die).

Christian "This is a place that you--that you all made together--that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed them and they needed you."

All the other characters were people he knew throughout his real life before the plane crash, and he needed them to help him.

"To remember....and let go"

Their storys and how they arrived at the island wether it was on the plane or not were also created by him.

Jack "Kate--she said we were leaving."
Chritian "Not leave--No--Moving on."

Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.

Essien

Some aspects of Lost and it's ending are open to interpretation, not open to completely making stuff up! We were told in black and white that what happened on the island was real, I really just can't see where people are getting all these other notions from.

kevodaly

'Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.'

Why did he change clothes along the way?

And what airplane was that taking off as he died?

I think there are lots of things that were left open for debate .. which obviously worked ...but I believe based on the Christian/Jack conversation at the end that what happened on the island was real.

instantiTunes

Essien wrote: »

Some aspects of Lost and it's ending are open to interpretation, not open to completely making stuff up! We were told in black and white that what happened on the island was real, I really just can't see where people are getting all these other notions from.

When were we told in BLACK and WHITE that what happen on the Island was real?

Here in back and white for you is exactly what was said -

Jack "Are you real?"
Christian "I sure hope so...yeah I'm real, your real, everything thats every happened to you is real, All those people in the church...they're real, too."

No mention that they were on the Island or that the island really existed.

All the people and everything that happened were real too Jack.

instantiTunes

kevodaly wrote: »

'Simple:

Jack was in the plane crash, he climb from the wreckage and walked/struggled his way in to the bamboo field. When he could final go no further, he fell to the ground, then he Died.'

Why did he change clothes along the way?

And what airplane was that taking off as he died?

I think there are lots of things that were left open for debate .. which obviously worked ...but I believe based on the Christian/Jack conversation at the end that what happened on the island was real.

You don't know he changed his clothes, we didn't ever see what he was actually really wearing before the plane crash.

we only ever saw what happen in the, I'll call it life flashing before you eyes stage (between when he open his eye in the 1st episode and close it in the last one). the same goes for the plane. it was just all create by Jacks dying mind

Essien

instantiTunes wrote: »

When were we told in BLACK and WHITE that what happen on the Island was real?

Here in back and white for you is exactly what was said -

Jack "Are you real?"
Christian "I sure hope so...yeah I'm real, your real, everything thats every happened to you is real, All those people in the church...they're real, too."

No mention that they were on the Island or that the island really existed.

All the people and everything that happened were real too Jack.

We were told in that underlined part ffs. He says "everything" does he really need to specify that it includes the island? Where is there any indication that the other characters were all imagined by Jack? Did he imagine all their flashbacks too?

spiggotpaddy

a man in a wheel chair can walk. a fat man does'nt lose weight. no rescuers
ever come.
the only way the magic can be explained is there was none.
the show was a dying man.

Essien

spiggotpaddy wrote: »

a man in a wheel chair can walk. a fat man does'nt lose weight. no rescuers
ever come.
the only way the magic can be explained is there was none.
the show was a dying man.

Well, that explains every sci fi movie or tv series I've ever seen then, all dead people.

This is getting quite retarded.

jasonb

Would the epliogue that's gonna to be on the DVD, which apparently shows Hurley being 'number 1', also be proof that only the 'Flash Sideways' was 'purgatory' as it shows what happened on the Island after Jack dies? Or will that all be in Jack's mind as well?

J.

molloyjh

whiteman19 wrote: »

a good point, and at least you explained it with reason...not like some people who just say "they died at the start. end of" but i think you're wrong.

i think that the flash-sideways was purgatory, because in it, they did not know they were dead (in another life, brotha) and they had to remember (via some circumstance such as kate delivering claire's baby) what their other life was so they would realise how important they were to each other and accept that they were dead and ready to move on. Jack was last to remember as he wasn't ready yet.

Jack's son could be a way of jack resolving his daddy issues. it wasn't something he could resolve in his life but only in his afterlife when he had a son.

jin and sun's child was their way of remembering what happened to them as juilet scanned sun's baby. they remembered and moved on readily.

christian's speech explains a lot but if it was in jack's head, then that doesn't count, i suppose.
i don't think that the flash-sideways was happening in parallel as jack was dying. i think it took place after he died

I recognise my theory has holes, but to be fair every theory does. You say Jack's son could just be him resolving his daddy issues, but that would then make the son a creation of Jacks mind, which would be a hole in that the purgatory theory.

Mitch - in answer to your question re peoples memories I think Jacks subconcious created the alt-reality when he tried to destroy Swan Station to prevent the crash ever happening. He then imagined what would have happened after the plane landed in LAX. In this alt-reality Kate doesn't go to jail but instead helps Claire - she had helped deliver Claires baby on the island. Jack, who realised that Locke was right about the island before detonating the bomb, imagines himself curing an irreversible spinal injury, probably because he felt guilty about how he had treated Locke.