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Rape accused to be given anonymity

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  • 21-05-2010 2:06pm
    #1
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭


    Read it here

    Now obviously this is Britian but hopefully it might reflect back here eventually as a defendants identity is not protected. I really like this idea because of the reputation that sticks with victims of falsely accused rape. If a person is proven to have raped then I think the identity protection should be stripped from them. I see that rape support groups are against this :rolleyes: not surprised really. Those groups really should have more on their websites about falsely accused rape victims.


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    #2
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    AH is talking about it: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055917388


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    #3
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Ah I didn't see that but sure I think here is a good place for discussion also.

    (and don't we have 3 threads about the UCC Prof in 3 different places *shrugs* depends on who's point of view your looking for)


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    #4
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I think it would be a good thing as false or malicious accusations really harm people.Mud sticks. Its on google forever.

    The biggest one in ireland was a former nun was it not ? Nora Wall???

    merge the UCC threads -haha


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    #5
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Definately a good idea. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would be opposed to this. It only seems fair in relation to the 'innocent until proven guilty' philosophy.


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    #6
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Minette Walters has her say in the Sunday Times today.
    Galvasean wrote: »
    Definately a good idea. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would be opposed to this. It only seems fair in relation to the 'innocent until proven guilty' philosophy.

    Well take a look at some of the misandrist bile coming from some in the comments below, especially the lady chatterbox comments. Talk about one sided, but then again, why let such hate (and that's what it is, no mistake) get in the way of such blinkered views?

    Somehow I doubt that if it were women who were being discriminated in such a way she would be so gung ho! :rolleyes:


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    #7
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    LostinBlanch wrote: »
    Minette Walters has her say in the Sunday Times today.

    She talks lots of sence and is very objective as a person first and as a woman second. Thats not saying that all rape complainants lie -but some do.

    Kevin Myers criticised womens leaders last year for remaining silent over the exoneration of a man following the adult recantation of her allegations made by her as a child.

    It isn't a gender contest-it is about justice and the operation of our legal system.



    Somehow I doubt that if it were women who were being discriminated in such a way she would be so gung ho! :rolleyes:

    There has to be a balance even when wearing gender goggles -some of the feminist activists are neanderthal.

    It may even help victims come forward. You have almost 0% prosectution of female perpetrators yet.


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    #8
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    i would defineily be FOR tougher sentances for rapists, but there are a lot of false accusations of rape and the law works on the premise of being innocent until proven guilty, not visa versa and a claim of that sort could and does ruin someone's reputation for life and is in effect a punishment in itself which shouldn't (imho) be handed out before a conviction.


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    #9
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    I just saw this.

    So in this case a woman accuses a man of rape despite a judges statement that her case "lacked credibility" the man then committed suicide "when facing that allegation".

    So that same woman then sets out to frame another man for rape telling her friend "I'm going to have his body tonight" then says 'He is not going to get away with it, I've got evidence this time.'

    All this before any "rape" occured!

    I wonder will the woman in this case be brought before a court? If it was here I'd doubt it. The fact that it is in the UK might mean she does.

    IMO she should be named, even if only to warn other men that may be unlucky enough to cross her path.


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    #10
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    LostinBlanch wrote: »
    I wonder will the woman in this case be brought before a court? If it was here I'd doubt it. The fact that it is in the UK might mean she does.

    You are basing this on?


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    #11
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Proper order.A mate of mine was accused by a girl of assaulting her a number of years ago.Turned out that she made the whole thing up and ended up having charges brought against her for wasting police time (or something to that effect) but the poor guys name was blackened for years afterwards.

    Unfortunatly with things like rape it is usually a case of guilty until proven innocent.


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    #12
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Isnt that it though - a false accusation shouldnt be a gender issue and should upset women as much as men.


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    #13
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    CDfm wrote: »
    Isnt that it though - a false accusation shouldnt be a gender issue and should upset women as much as men.

    The problem is the statistics of rape conviction being low have been used to promote the idea that most guilty men get off by various groups.

    So if you get off it is not a case that you have been shown to be innocent, it becomes a case that you got off. That is the mind set most people are in with regard to rape, much more so than other crimes.


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    #14
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The problem is the statistics of rape conviction being low have been used to promote the idea that most guilty men get off by various groups.

    So if you get off it is not a case that you have been shown to be innocent, it becomes a case that you got off. That is the mind set most people are in with regard to rape, much more so than other crimes.

    It is a very difficult crime to prove and often devastating for the victim.
    I have posted before of a schoolfriend who as an adult commited suicide as a result of abuse he recieved as a child. I personally have no doubt my friend was raped but proof was something else.

    It is fairly awful that someone who is exonerated may suffer the stigma and statistics are used by people and groups with political agendas.Maybe the conviction rate is as good as it gets.

    You cant set targets for conviction rates they have to be supported by evidence.I am for tougher sentencing for rape.


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    #15
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    d'Oracle wrote: »
    You are basing this on?

    You really do not hear of accusers of false rape being brought to any sort of justice. And this sort of thing would be big news.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Isnt that it though - a false accusation shouldnt be a gender issue and should upset women as much as men.

    You'd think that but in reality it's different. Unfortunately.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I am for tougher sentencing for rape.

    I am too. For sure. Really, anybody who rapes another person deserves a spot in the lowest place in hell. Equally, a person who falsely accuses someone of rape deserves as much of a sentence as somebody found guilty of rape.


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    #16
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Teferi wrote: »
    You really do not hear of accusers of false rape being brought to any sort of justice. And this sort of thing would be big news.

    There was a recent enough case where a female garda accused a taxi driver of rape because,and I quote "he looked at me funny".Havnt heard what type of sentence she got though.

    Unfortunatly with the horrible crime that is rape,it is very hard to prove and as CDfm pointed out,its consequences can be far reaching and devestating.

    Teferi wrote: »
    I am too. For sure. Really, anybody who rapes another person deserves a spot in the lowest place in hell. Equally, a person who falsely accuses someone of rape deserves as much of a sentence as somebody found guilty of rape.

    My thoughts exactly.


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    #17
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    If you read the thread here and many similar threads it is plainly obvious that men condemn rape unresevededly.

    Then when you read commentary like this below you could be forgiven for thinking we are not part of a conspiracy

    http://www.amen.ie/Downloads/ireland_of_the_illusion_chapter18.pdf

    The legal system we have is adversorial and the defence will test the prosecutions case. We have a free press that reports this.

    I often think that those who promote the gender divide in criminal matters really open the door on this.

    I hate quoting Kevin Myers but if you ignore the rhetoric here you will see that women as well as men lie.

    We have a jury system where both men and women serve and that is there to safeguard the innocent but it is also manipulated by the guilty.



    Kevin Myers: A new piece of feminist victimhood-folderol has entered the governing ideology of this state

    By Kevin Myers

    Thursday May 13 2010


    I was writing yesterday about the striking case of the two Drimnagh girls involved in the incident which culminated in the death of two Polish male immigrants, but who have never been brought to trial. Equally striking has been the silence of the entire equality-feminist-multicultural industry on their amazing escape.
    But this is par for the course. For Irish "multiculturalism" now embodies much of our strange politico-legal value-system, and this mysterious hybrid invariably exhibits a curious partiality when it comes to adjudicating on crimes in which the perpetrator is a woman and the victim is a man. Consider the occasion when a garda found two women beating and kicking a drunk on the ground in Newbridge, Co Kildare. The garda intervened, the drunk got up, and then clobbered one of his female assailants. He was then charged with being drunk in public, and with threatening and insulting behaviour.
    Hearing details of the case, the judge said: "It seems to me that women are getting drunk and acting like alley-cats. Then they are fighting like savages. I can't say I blame the man for hitting her if she attacked him."
    Cue, your usual feminist mumbo-jumbo:

    Christine Ross of the National Women's Counci "His comments show that, in some cases, judges are in need of gender-awareness training, and training on issues involved in violence against women."Frances Fitzgerald[/COLOR][/URL] TD: The judge's comments raised "the important issue of the sensitivity of judges to violence against women". ]Jan O'Sullivan TD[/COLOR][/URL]. "It appears that the judge is defending physical violence against women."
    Breda Raggett, national president of the Irish Countrywomen's Association She called on the judge to resign, and declared his comments were highly offensive.
    [/LIST]
    Not one woman in public life condemned the undisputed assault by the women on the defenceless man. But at least he survived, unlike Corporal Gary Cotter, shot dead in his bed by his wife Norma a couple of years later. The court accepted her plea of guilty to a charge of manslaughter, and so there was no trial, even though she had carefully loaded his shotgun twice before firing both barrels into his body as he slept. Yet the judge let this killer walk free from the court, in part because she had a family -- the youngest of whom had been conceived while she was awaiting trial.
    Of course, from the feminist equality quangos in response to this extraordinary outcome -- silence. Those quangos were equally mum six years ago after Dolores O'Neill was found not guilty of murder, but guilty of manslaughter, though she had knifed her sleeping husband, Declan O'Neill, 21 times and hit him with a plumber's hammer 26 times.
    Her justification was that he was a drunk who had often abused her in the past. But the court heard absolutely no evidence about the record that he had kept of her violence towards him: of his personal notes, of conversations with his siblings about being hit over the head with various objects, including bottles.
    The court never heard how she had driven a car into him, requiring him to have treatment at Tallaght Hospital. What would they have made of such allegations when combined with the forensic evidence from the state pathologist that Declan O'Neill was a light drinker?
    It is almost beyond parody that Dolores O'Neill, the woman who knifed and bludgeoned her sleeping husband to death, was an employee of the Equality Authority. Aptly, the latest publication from a fellow quango of the Equality Authority, the Institute of Public Administration, contains an essay on 'Intimate Partner Homicide'. It begins with the risible declaration: "This chapter argues news reportage of violent crime in Ireland perpetuates gender stereotypes, particularly in its portrayal of women and its construction of binaries of 'deserving' and 'undeserving' women."
    What rubbish. Indeed, God help the newspaper that even made the disgusting suggestion that a murdered woman had ever deserved her fate. The essay then uses some incredibly meagre evidence from the media coverage of just ONE murder -- that of Jean Gilbert by her husband David Bourke after she announced she was leaving him -- to make its entire case. The essay opined: "Even articles that challenged (the husband's) account of his ordinary marriage failed to acknowledge, or indeed to entertain the possibility of, a context of (his) violence in the marriage."

    So I just think that when the issue of anonymity is raised you are dealing with gender based political ideologies that are out of kilter with the real world.

    In the real world some women lie (as do some men).


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    #18
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    The quoting of Kevin Meyers in any argument should be somehow punishable.


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    #19
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    d'Oracle wrote: »
    The quoting of Kevin Meyers in any argument should be somehow punishable.

    I know -but read the facts and cross out the b/s. It reads like two different legal systems based on gender.

    He is controvercial but if you read the comments from the female role models quoted here -you would wonder if we are in the same country or even the same dimension.

    So then when they speak on matters like anonimity for those accused rather than convicted of rape do they loose the right to be taken seriously.


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    #20
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    He has a habit of reading further into gender matters than is actually there.
    Also he likes to launch the crusades on the flimsiest of premise.

    I don't trust much that he writes.


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    #21
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    Teferi wrote: »
    You really do not hear of accusers of false rape being brought to any sort of justice. And this sort of thing would be big news.

    So baseless speculation then.
    Just as I suspected.
    "Ah sure Ireland is the worst for everything.
    Crappy Ireland."


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    #22
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    d'Oracle wrote: »
    He has a habit of reading further into gender matters than is actually there.
    Also he likes to launch the crusades on the flimsiest of premise.

    I don't trust much that he writes.

    I agree with you but here he discusses a particular incident reported and 4 seperate reactions by prominent women. I have highlighted his reportage and the comments of the judge and the women in seperate colours.
    Consider the occasion when a garda found two women beating and kicking a drunk on the ground in Newbridge, Co Kildare The garda intervened, the drunk got up, and then clobbered one of his female assailants. He was then charged with being drunk in public, and with threatening and insulting behaviour.
    Hearing details of the case, the judge said    : "It seems to me that women are getting drunk and acting like alley-cats. Then they are fighting like savages. I can't say I blame the man for hitting her if she attacked him."

    Christine Ross of the National Women's Counci "His comments show that, in some cases, judges are in need of gender-awareness training, and training on issues involved in violence against women.[/COLOR][/URL] "Frances FitzgeraldTD: The judge's comments raised "the important issue of the sensitivity of judges to violence against women". ].Jan O'Sullivan TD. "It appears that the judge is defending physical violence against women"
    Breda Raggett, national president of the Irish Countrywomen's Association She called on the judge to resign, and declared his comments were highly offensive


    [/RIGHT]
    Now I cant see anything perjorative in the judges reported comments and thats because there isn't.

    The majority of women I know would agree with the judge and not with these people who commented and who are movers and shakers in Ireland in the Irish establishment.

    So in that context what I am saying -even if you are sympathetic to some of what they say - with comments like these they loose moral authority and credibility.

    For example, I would have put the Irish Countrywomans Association up there as a sensible organisation so now I have reason to doubt that.

    And when Kevin Myers starts to sound reasonable warning bells start ringing.



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    #23
    shellyboo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    Teferi wrote: »
    I am too. For sure. Really, anybody who rapes another person deserves a spot in the lowest place in hell. Equally, a person who falsely accuses someone of rape deserves as much of a sentence as somebody found guilty of rape.


    I was agreeing with you up to this point, CDfm. I know that a false accusation can be life-destroying, but in no way is it comparable to actually being raped. I'm sorry, but it's just not. Both crimes to be sure, but not of equal measure.

    Even more so in this country, where the burden of proof (from society pressures if not in the court) is almost exclusively on the victim and not the accused - we saw a recent case where a community came out in support of a rapist when when he *was* convicted, ffs. That's the attitude we're battling against and that's why the law favours the victim. To suggest otherwise is very damaging. Let's get some perspective here.

    A measure where the accused would be anonymous until convicted sounds like it could be a key strategy in terms of getting reported rapes UP and false accusations DOWN. I can see a lot more women being comfortable with coming forward knowing that the whole thing was done in confidence.


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    #24
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    shellyboo wrote: »
    I was agreeing with you up to this point, CDfm. I know that a false accusation can be life-destroying, but in no way is it comparable to actually being raped. I'm sorry, but it's just not. Both crimes to be sure, but not of equal measure.
    Who gets to decide the measure though? And by what meter?


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    #25
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    shellyboo wrote: »
    I was agreeing with you up to this point, CDfm. I know that a false accusation can be life-destroying, but in no way is it comparable to actually being raped. I'm sorry, but it's just not. Both crimes to be sure, but not of equal measure.

    That quote wasn't mine btw. :)

    I can't understand how a rape victim feels because I havent been one but I do imagine it is fairly bleak and the level of fear must be enormous to make someone comply.

    Similarly, being accused of rape especially if remanded in custody awaiting trial must be terrifying if the allegations are false or if convicted later exonerated.

    I don't know how it should be handled.

    EDIT - I was and am truly shocked by the case you mentioned. Good for you for pointing it out.


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    #26
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    shellyboo wrote: »
    I was agreeing with you up to this point, CDfm. I know that a false accusation can be life-destroying, but in no way is it comparable to actually being raped. I'm sorry, but it's just not. Both crimes to be sure, but not of equal measure.
    not disagreeing with you there at all as i know more than the majority of men how devastating rape can be for a woman and her family (from personal experience), but every woman who falsely accuses a man of rape reduces the credibility of every actual rape victim that comes after her and increases the chances of an actual rapist getting away with it and makes it that little bit harder for them to be brought to justice.

    it's far from the same crime, but it's still a serious crime and one that hurts all women and any woman that can do that deserves to be properly punished. unfortunately, as with everything else it's not that simple.

    there's plenty of fake accusations that have more evidence than real ones, so who's to say what is true and what isn't. it's all just a horrible mess and the only way out of it is for all the false accusers to see the damage they are doing to themselves and all women and stop doing it, but that's never going to happen because these kinds of people think of nobody but themselves anyway.


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    #27
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thats an interesting point you make vibe666 and I would see shellyboo and me as essentially being on the same side and I do believe that rape is an awful crime.

    False accusations are not about "rapes" as they never happened so its in all our interests to weed them out.

    You also have sex with regrets and drunk sex where people say wtf was I thinking. Its all too easy for two otherwise consensual adults to get caught up in some modern day morality play.(Thats not excusing rapists or excusing rape in any way).

    So while rape is a very much underreported crime this is not about the underreporting issue. This is about fabricated or overreported cases.

    I think that protecting the identity of the accused is a good thing and will encourage people to come forward as well as helping those falsely accused.

    One thing that is different about this argument is that a lot of ordinary women and publications aimed at women are discussing this issue openly and outside the confines of "feminism" but on a human level.


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    #28
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    d'Oracle wrote: »
    The quoting of Kevin Meyers in any argument should be somehow punishable.

    +1

    Hearing Meyers agrees with me always causes me to deeply question what I believe :pac:


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    #29
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wicknight wrote: »
    +1

    Hearing Meyers agrees with me always causes me to deeply question what I believe :pac:

    + 1

    I feel your pain


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    #30
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    shellyboo wrote: »
    Even more so in this country, where the burden of proof (from society pressures if not in the court) is almost exclusively on the victim and not the accused - we saw a recent case where a community came out in support of a rapist when when he *was* convicted, ffs. That's the attitude we're battling against and that's why the law favours the victim. To suggest otherwise is very damaging. Let's get some perspective here.

    I am not sure I am reading this right but are you complaining about the fact the law is "innocent until proven guilty" ?

    While I agree it was absolutely disgusting how so many people in that town supported the convicted rapist I think nearly every single other person in the country was as disgusted and appalled by this behaviour, every single person I talked to about it shared my disgust anyway. So I think most people in society have the right attitude to begin with, they hate rapists and want to see harsher sentences to them but there will always be a small few of those personally involved in the case that will let their personal relationship with the victim cloud their reason on the facts.


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    #31
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I'm really struggling to see the down side to this, other than it singling out rape for special treatment.

    Not asking who agrees or not but can someone explain the actual logic of those who are dead set against this idea?


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