[US/IRL] 6x17/18 - "The End" (2.5 Hour Series Finale) [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Mitch Connor · 25-05-2010 10:30AM

Berkut wrote: »

I'll let you off with that I suppose

I still feel cheated in that I hoped this show was more than a simple story about people dying, in limbo and moving on.

it was about more than that. 5 seasons had nothing to do with it, and half the sixth season had nothing to do with it. Only in the FST were they dead. The show was about the island and the need to protect it, the need for Jack to become a man of faith in order to do so, and for Hurley to accept his destiny as the eventual protector.

Blazer · 25-05-2010 10:33AM

10 years time we'll still be arguing about it.
It's like those who argue American Physco is a classic and others that hate it because he was

actually dreaming it all

FutureGuy · 25-05-2010 10:33AM

9

prinz wrote: »

Oh yeah you're right, it was just the defining theme in her own life (searching for Des) in her lovers life (Des stuck there and helped save it), her fathers life (lived there as a young adult, spent his life looking for it to go back and died there), her mothers life (lived there as an other, killed her own son there, manned the DI post that could actually find the island, was central to sending the losties back to it), her brothers life (went to island, was killed by his mother above)..... but you're right was obvious she didn't give a rats ass. :rolleyes:

Saved me from typing the obvious. Cheers.

De Bhál · 25-05-2010 10:38AM

7

Sorry if these questions have been answered already - too many pages to go back reading.

Why did locke say to Jack he had no son?

The people who flew from the island at the end, what's the story there?

Mitch Connor · 25-05-2010 10:39AM

De Bhál wrote: »

Sorry if these questions have been answered already - too many pages to go back reading.

Why did locke say to Jack he had no son?

The people who flew from the island at the end, what's the story there?

In reality (the first 5 seasons and the island part of the 6th) Jack had no son.

We don't know what the story is with those that left the island at the end, they simply left the island - we don't see what happens after.

Penn · 25-05-2010 10:40AM

9

seadnamac wrote: »

I think a lot of people, including myself disagree with that. As far as I'm concerned they introduced all these mysteries to get people to watch the show and to keep people watching the show. By that reasoning, is it not fair to say that a large portion of their audience was in it for the mystery? And if so, would it not be reasonable to suggest that if that's why people are watching the show, then that's what the show becomes about, at least to some degree?

But like I said, would any explaination have been good enough. Black smoke monster. Nothing could ever truly explain that because it isn't possible.

And while I agree with your point on some level, I'd be of the opinion that all the mystery etc to get people watching was to het people attached to the characters stories. As someone said, would you have watched 48 people sitting on a beach all day talking? The more people watch, the more they become attached to the characters. Nearly everyone has a favourite character ( Lapidus survived and was awesome in the finale

)

I guess we're not going to agree. I was happy with the story about the characters, and I was happy with the story about the island and the mysteries, because no real explaination would have been good enough. It's just a magical island on a tv show. No explaination needed

seadnamac · 25-05-2010 10:40AM

5

prinz wrote: »

Characters don't work too well in a vacuum. If they had spent everyday sitting on the beach looking at the sea would it ever have been made? Like every tv show and every film there's a plot to add interest, it doesn't mean that the plot supercedes the characters as the focus of the show.

I get that but I think you're simplifying it way too much. And you quoted me by the way (who said it was directed at me?)....

randomchild · 25-05-2010 10:41AM

9

God that was amazing, can understand why many people did not enjoy it, but I think it was an amazing and quite a brave way to finish the series. Favourite episode of the entire series and a well deserved 10/10.

How Soon Is Now · 25-05-2010 10:43AM

8

De Bhál wrote: »

Sorry if these questions have been answered already - too many pages to go back reading.

Why did locke say to Jack he had no son?

The people who flew from the island at the end, what's the story there?

Jacks ''son'' was something that was created in his purgatory to fill a gap he was missing.
Maybe cause of his own issues with his father or maybe another part of his life he felt wasnt complete.

We didnt get there after island story we assume they died at some stage but all we know is the main characters were only ones in the church so who knows what happened with the rest?

Blazer · 25-05-2010 10:44AM

seadnamac wrote: »

I get that but I think you're simplifying it way too much. And you quoted me by the way (who said it was directed at me?)....

let it off...some people need to put other people down just so they can feel all brainy and smug

At the end of the day..it's just a tv show that relied on smoke and mirrors and denials/lies to hide the fact that it wasn't so clever after all.

De Bhál · 25-05-2010 10:46AM

7

Mitch Connor wrote: »

In reality (the first 5 seasons and the island part of the 6th) Jack had no son.

We don't know what the story is with those that left the island at the end, they simply left the island - we don't see what happens after.

Thanks for the reply

So where did the son come from or for what reason?

PCros · 25-05-2010 10:48AM

9

Berkut wrote: »

At the end of the day..it's just a tv show that relied on smoke and mirrors and denials/lies to hide the fact that it wasn't so clever after all.

Keep telling yourself that ;-)

Resi12 · 25-05-2010 10:49AM

9

De Bhál wrote: »

Thanks for the reply

So where did the son come from or for what reason?

+1, I have no idea about that as well. Weird purgatory.

Mitch Connor · 25-05-2010 10:49AM

De Bhál wrote: »

Thanks for the reply

So where did the son come from or for what reason?

imagination maybe, need maybe - we don't know for sure. Maybe he was there, as said a few posts up, to help Jack reconcile his father issues (something he needed to do) - Jack's mother mentions that Jack is very like Christian and that his relationship with his son is very like that of Christian and Jack, so maybe that is the part the son plays within Jack's purgatory.

Penn · 25-05-2010 10:50AM

9

De Bhál wrote: »

Thanks for the reply

So where did the son come from or for what reason?

I think jacks son was just a way of allowing jack to deal with the issues he has with his father, as he is now a father with a son.

JP Liz V1 · 25-05-2010 10:50AM

9

What happened with Michael and Walt? Why were they not at the end with Jack and the others?

pug_ · 25-05-2010 10:51AM

7

Okay I may as well ask some questions, seeing as people seem to have a lot of answers

Why did a nuclear explosion create an alternate reality/Purgatory where the Island is on the bottom of the ocean and all of the main characters had an upbringing that was fundamentally different to their Island characters?

Why is there an island at all? As in what's it's purpose other than as a vehicle to create a show and populate with characters?

What happens when the light goes out other than the island sinks? If flash sideways is to be believed then nothing, or is that just because it's more of an afterlife? and if flash sideways is just an afterlife why make reference to the sunken island at the very start of season 6?

Why did the light turn MIB into a smoke monster, do nothing to Desmond other than make him a bit tired from what I can see (and why is Desmond immune to the effects of the electromagnetism anyway?), and just move Jack to a different part of the Island to die?

Why was Syaid resurrected from the dead? MAy have already been answered I just can't remember that one.

What is the light, other than some kind of stuff that's in all of us, and a great source of electromagnetism? Does it have a purpose other than to just exist? Where did this great source of light come from? The one thing that seems to make it exist (the stone) looks to be man made, so who made it? why? how did they know to make it? what was the world like before it existed if it's in some way necessary?

They're just a few questions raised by season 6 alone, there are plenty of others from other seasons, but well I figure one season at a time is enough to be working on where lost is concerned

They're not character questions I know, but I figure if you're going to create a world, populate it with characters, and base a huge part of the plot-lines around the mysteries of the island, then it'd be nice to understand what the whole point of everything they were doing over the last 6 years was other than to protect a mysterious light and wind up in a purgatory they themselves created.

prinz · 25-05-2010 10:52AM

9

De Bhál wrote: »

Thanks for the reply
So where did the son come from or for what reason?

Came from Jack's imagination so he could try to resolve some of his own daddy/son issues.

Blazer · 25-05-2010 10:54AM

PCros wrote: »

Keep telling yourself that ;-)

I will

I also suggest people better start cooling their heads (me included) as there's currently a lot of condescension in here.
There's a lot of people happy with the ending...there's a lot of people angry at the ending which doesn't mix well

Either one doesn't make you any less intelligent or any more intelligent.

prinz · 25-05-2010 10:55AM

9

Berkut wrote: »

Either one doesn't make you any less intelligent or any more intelligent.

Being angry with the ending is one thing, being angry because some things weren't resolved when they clearly were is another, being angry because TV doesn't reflect real life... that's another entirely. Some people can't seem to be able to enjoy it for what it was, a TV show.

JerryHandbag · 25-05-2010 10:55AM

5

Just one of many questions that came to mind....why was alternative/purgatory Daniel Faraday trying to convince Desmond while they were prepping for the concert, that they were in fact in another alternative timeline?? He said he may have set off the nuke and they were in another timeline now.....why would he say this if they were in this "afterlife"

Its this afterlife/purgatory crap that I just don't get....Jacks father said they "created" it themselves....what right down to the fine details like Hurleys jeep? The crockery on Sayid's brothers kitchen table? Sun getting shot, Locke getting his back cut open? None of that was real? Just some kind of limbo? So basically half of season 6 was some kind of dream-ish non-reality spiritual realm.....NOT what I expected from a sci-fi show!! Looking at it from a scientific rather than religious viewpoint, the ending does not sit well with me, especially after what was a great season and brilliant finale (up until that tacky schmaltzy church scene) :rolleyes:

Edit: I gave it a 6 originally, the more I think about it, thats a generous score!

How Soon Is Now · 25-05-2010 10:55AM

8

Berkut wrote: »

I will

I also suggest people better start cooling their heads (me included) as there's currently a lot of condescension in here.
There's a lot of people happy with the ending...there's a lot of people angry at the ending which doesn't mix well
Either one doesn't make you any less intelligent or any more intelligent.

True which is why maybe we should agree to disgree not everyone is gonna come to the same conclusion about something so long and complex.

Dont mean the show ****ed up or copped out on us we just all have our own ways of understanding the story.

pug_ · 25-05-2010 10:57AM

7

prinz wrote: »

Came from Jack's imagination so he could try to resolve some of his own daddy/son issues.

Try telling that to the mother, I'm sure she'd have loved to hear that one while in labour

Then again labour only lasts about a minute in purgatory.

PCros · 25-05-2010 10:57AM

9

I loved it, it was a great ending and as pointed out before it was not dumbed down for everybody to understand like alot of shows these days.

One thing though which I didnt get why were Sawyer and Kate in the church if they got away safely in the plane?

De Bhál · 25-05-2010 10:57AM

7

prinz wrote: »

Came from Jack's imagination so he could try to resolve some of his own daddy/son issues.

ok that makes sense or sounds good anyway.

Thanks to those for the replys.

Laois_Man · 25-05-2010 10:59AM

2

Helix wrote: »

fcuking purgatory

they all died when the plane crashed in the first episode

that is PATHETIC

I can't believe the abount of people who have misunderstood it like this.

They did NOT die in the Plance crash.
Go back and look again at Christian explaining the situation to Jack.....Some died before him....some died long after him. They did not die in the plane crash - they all came together again after their eventual deaths.

Still way too many holes in the story and questions which were'nt answered.....NOT because the writers were clever enough to keep some stuff open to debate, rather because they were just stupid time fillers that were just there to drag it all out for 6 years!

prinz · 25-05-2010 10:59AM

9

pug_ wrote: »

Try telling that to the mother, I'm sure she'd have loved to hear that one while in labour Then again labour only lasts about a minute in purgatory.

There is no time in purgatory

PCros wrote: »

One thing though which I didnt get why were Sawyer and Kate in the church if they got away safely in the plane?

They died sometime later in life off the island. But their connection to the island the other people there was the defining time in their lives.

seadnamac · 25-05-2010 10:59AM

5

prinz wrote: »

Came from Jack's imagination so he could try to resolve some of his own daddy/son issues.

Yet Christian told Jack everything that had ever happened to him and everyone he had ever known was real?

How Soon Is Now · 25-05-2010 11:00AM

8

PCros wrote: »

I loved it, it was a great ending and as pointed out before it was not dumbed down for everybody to understand like alot of shows these days.

One thing though which I didnt get why were Sawyer and Kate in the church if they got away safely in the plane?

They died at some stage we just didnt see it.
Theres no timeline in the purgatory all they really needed was to find there connection and when they found this they were finished they could move on.

tobehonestwithy · 25-05-2010 11:00AM

8

a good answer from a writer (not a LOST writer), makes more sense now

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding

[US/IRL] 6x17/18 - "The End" (2.5 Hour Series Finale) [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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[US/IRL] 6x17/18 - "The End" (2.5 Hour Series Finale) [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]