Fake NCT

Ahorseofaman · 24-05-2010 04:56PM #1

My wife bought a small car for 1200 euro in feb from a long established small dealer in cork.It was nct,t til may.On ringing the nct to book it in they told us that the nct was a forgery and that it had not been nct,d since 2007.the dealer wont give us back our money claiming the guarantee is out and we have put 5000 miles on it but on talking to a solicitor friend she said that as it is illegal under the goods and services act and the road traffic act to sell an unroad worthy vehicle(it failed the nct in a spectacular fashion)we should take him to the small claims court and sue him for the cost of putting it right.it will cost about 1000 e as it needs a new cat among numerous others things.anyone one else have a similar experience and what happened in your case.
thanks
Patrick

smash · 24-05-2010 04:59PM

A new cat is cheap...

But back on topic - take him to small claims for a full refund + expenses for repairs if you've done any.

Also, do you know if the dealer was even aware of the fake disc? This might have been a scrappage car or something that they just got on trade in. What was their attitude like when you told them?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2010 05:00PM

Ahorseofaman wrote: »

My wife bought a small car for 1200 euro...(solicitor says)...we should take him to the small claims court and sue him for the cost of putting it right.it will cost about 1000 e

I think you should start the process of suing him, but settle for all your money back, including solicitors expenses. No way he'll want to defend this in court.

MagicSean · 24-05-2010 05:28PM

Report him to the gardaí for fraud. Forged documents are a serious offence.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2010 05:36PM

k_mac wrote: »

Report him to the gardaí for fraud. Forged documents are a serious offence.

Not until after you get your full refund including expenses!

firefly08 · 24-05-2010 06:06PM

It may be illegal to sell an un-roadworthy car but I'm pretty sure selling a car with forged documentation is a bit more serious! Chances are the dealer wasn't aware but I would think he's still responsible to some extent...that is the route I would be following if I were you: make him realize that it's a serious offence that he is at least partly responsible for and I think he will change his tune. Suing someone over the sale of goods act is probably going to be a tedious process, so keep that as your last resort...

My 2 cents!

langdang · 24-05-2010 07:12PM

He's either got serious neck or he hasn't thought of how bad the headline "local car dealer sells car with forged NCT documentation" would look even in a local paper. If he had any sense he'd offer ye the 1200 and take the car back off ye for a quiet life! Would this be an acceptable solution for you OP?

He probably wasn't aware of the faked NCT, I mean it's not liking pretending a car was serviced - even the most un-car-knowledgeable person is going to find out the NCT was faked sooner or later. But no matter what price you pay you expect that when you buy from a dealer it won't fail the NCT "spectacularly" so don't take any guff about "what do you expect for 1200"

lightspeed · 24-05-2010 08:10PM

get a solicitor maybe to draft a letter of your intention to sue. it may cost you a small amount im not fully sure on the cost of it but i cant imagine it would cost that much. im sure he would take it seriously then . He is probaly used to getting calls from unhapy customers and most of them dont go to the bother of taking him to court but in this case you definately should.
best of luck with it.

knifey_spoonie · 24-05-2010 08:12PM

Hello my name is Devil's Advocate.

The op has put 5000 mile's on the car. Whats to say these problems have not manifested themselves since the warranty has ran out. The big problem here is establishing that the car was in an unroadworthy condition when purchased, it don't make no difference what condition it is in now.

Any person who plans to make a living out of selling cars, would be stone wall mad to try pull a fake NCT cert. The OP said they were long established.So the chances are they did'nt know and are as clueless as the OP.

Have you looked at the NCT cert, does it look fake. Have you put it beside another NCT cert. Is it possible that there is a mistake on the behalf of NCT's.

What you all seem to be forgetting is, if this fake NCT cert thing had not come up, the OP would not have a leg to stand-on.The dealer in my eyes has nothing to answer for on the account of the car failing the NCT. He is only liable for the Fake Cert.

Merch · 24-05-2010 08:30PM

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

Hello my name is Devil's Advocate.

The op has put 5000 mile's on the car. Whats to say these problems have not manifested themselves since the warranty has ran out. The big problem here is establishing that the car was in an unroadworthy condition when purchased, it don't make no difference what condition it is in now.

Any person who plans to make a living out of selling cars, would be stone wall mad to try pull a fake NCT cert. The OP said they were long established.So the chances are they did'nt know and are as clueless as the OP.

Have you looked at the NCT cert, does it look fake. Have you put it beside another NCT cert. Is it possible that there is a mistake on the behalf of NCT's.

What you all seem to be forgetting is, if this fake NCT cert thing had not come up, the OP would not have a leg to stand-on.The dealer in my eyes has nothing to answer for on the account of the car failing the NCT. He is only liable for the Fake Cert.

he sold a car with a fake NCT! either he was aware of this meaning he is a crook, or he did it unknowingly meaning he is foolish, being ignorant of the facts isnt an excuse for breaking the law or fobbing someone off with a faulty product.
The Fake NCT has come it and it is an issue (the main issue) so your last paragraph is irrelevant. Do you run some kind of business motor or otherwise where you think this (ie shoddy, illegal service is acceptable)

slimjimmc · 24-05-2010 08:55PM

Ahorseofaman wrote: »

My wife bought a small car for 1200 euro in feb from a long established small dealer in cork.It was nct,t til may.On ringing the nct to book it in they told us that the nct was a forgery and that it had not been nct,d since 2007.the dealer wont give us back our money claiming the guarantee is out and we have put 5000 miles on it but on talking to a solicitor friend she said that as it is illegal under the goods and services act and the road traffic act to sell an unroad worthy vehicle(it failed the nct in a spectacular fashion)we should take him to the small claims court and sue him for the cost of putting it right.it will cost about 1000 e as it needs a new cat among numerous others things.anyone one else have a similar experience and what happened in your case.
thanks
Patrick

There is a legal warranty that the car must be safe, but it is not an offence under the Sale of Goods and Services Act 1980 (can't find any offence under the RTA either if there is one). It simply means you are entitled to 'redress' (usually compensation or your money back). http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html

(2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

If the car failed the NCT with dangerous defects then you can challenge on this basis, however if it failed spectacularily on a number of non-dangerous items such as the emissions test (i.e. dead cat) your car would not be road-worthy but not dangerous either. Somebody would need to certify the car as dangerous.

PS: Would the NCT allow a dangerous car to be driven home, most garages wouldn't afaik?

EPM · 24-05-2010 09:03PM

Fake cert...can you prove it? Get cert checked, then decide. If it is threaten to report it and see how it goes...for such small money I reckon he'll sort it.
Then report him. People like that give the trade a bad name

rebel.ranter · 24-05-2010 09:17PM

Sure the OP could have organized the fake NCT themselves.... That is what the car sales man could allege, is there good evidence that he did? If not then you are wasting your time reporting him.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2010 09:21PM

EPM wrote: »

Fake cert...can you prove it? Get cert checked, then decide. If it is threaten to report it and see how it goes...for such small money I reckon he'll sort it.
Then report him. People like that give the trade a bad name

Whats with everyone automatically assuming it's the dealer that put a fake disc in? It's much more likely that it was traded in to him or he bought it at auction like that.

How many dealers actualy ring up and check to see if the nct disk in the window is real. The same could be said of a tax disc.

Merch · 24-05-2010 09:56PM

Stekelly wrote: »

Whats with everyone automatically assuming it's the dealer that put a fake disc in? It's much more likely that it was traded in to him or he bought it at auction like that.

How many dealers actualy ring up and check to see if the nct disk in the window is real. The same could be said of a tax disc.

Thats not the OPS fault though, from now on in, I'll be checking NCT's are valid if buying. But you expect if it is represented as having an NCT then a business should be checking something like that, but no-one should be passing off a fake one.
If it was passed off to him as such then he should have followed that up rather than sell it on if he knew, if he didn't know he should refund the customer as his own foolishness cost him, why should the customer be faulted, ignorance isnt an excuse for poor service,

knifey_spoonie · 24-05-2010 09:56PM

Merch wrote: »

he sold a car with a fake NCT! either he was aware of this meaning he is a crook, or he did it unknowingly meaning he is foolish, being ignorant of the facts isnt an excuse for breaking the law or fobbing someone off with a faulty product.
The Fake NCT has come it and it is an issue (the main issue) so your last paragraph is irrelevant. Do you run some kind of business motor or otherwise where you think this (ie shoddy, illegal service is acceptable)

Its time for a english lesson

a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with for the sake of argument.

Not once did i say the dealer was right or his actions acceptable, so your can stop putting words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is all we are hearing is one side of the story, you do not now history behind this NCT, no one here does, All you are doing is going on preconceived misconceptions that all car salemen are crooks, scumbags or whatever other word you choose. I would like to know what you work as im sure i can come up with lots of unfair misconceptions about your profession.

To answer your question, yes i do work in the motor industry, and guess what im not a crook, I know shock horror. I work damm hard at my job, I treat all my customers with respect and honesty. I also know my customers appreciate this, as my overall customer satisfaction is at 96%.

I dont agree with the underhand ways of some dealers, but you or no one else here knows if the dealer had a hand in the NCT cert. Until it is confirmed put your pitchforks away, but by all means if it turns out he printed the fake cert, I would be the first to call him a w@anker from the tallest building.

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2010 09:58PM

Merch wrote: »

Thats not the OPS fault though, from now on in, I'll be checking NCT's are valid if buying. But you expect if it is represented as having an NCT then a business should be checking something like that, but no-one should be passing off a fake one.
If it was passed off to him as such then he should have followed that up rather than sell it on if he knew, if he didn't know he should refund the customer as his own foolishness cost him, why should the customer be faulted, ignorance isnt an excuse for poor service,

I mever said it was the op's fault. I was talking about all the people screaming for the garage to be reported ans /or sued.

Merch · 24-05-2010 10:03PM

Stekelly wrote: »

I mever said it was the op's fault. I was talking about all the people screaming for the garage to be reported ans /or sued.

? didnt you read the first post? it said the dealer effectively told them to feck off, what would you do? accept that as your answer after being sold a lemon? the dealer seems to have made his position clear, why not out him if thats how his business operates? and sue to get your money back.

Ahorseofaman · 24-05-2010 10:15PM

it failed on rear axle brake hand brake, front suspension,steering linkage(both)repeat side slip test ,emissions.he rang tonight and offered. 1 he gives me 250 euro and I sort it .2 Igive him 500 and he sorts it or 3 he will buy it back for 800.Itold him (politely) to take a short walk off a long pier.
edit; My argument is that I paid 1200 quid for a roadworthy car with a valid ntc and what I got was a piece of crap with fake ntc that had,nt been tested in 5 yrs.It seems a no brainer to me .I dont believe (I think )that he put the fake cert on but as the seller he has a duty of care that the car is fit for purpose and legal.thanks you all for the input btw

knifey_spoonie · 24-05-2010 10:20PM

Ahorseofaman wrote: »

it failed on rear axle brake hand brake, front suspension,steering linkage(both)repeat side slip test ,emissions.he rang tonight and offered. 1 he gives me 250 euro and I sort it .2 Igive him 500 and he sorts it or 3 he will buy it back for 800.Itold him (politely) to take a short walk off a long pier.

Hey is there any chance of you PM'ing the Reg, I have a program that can usually pull up NCT date, Owners etc, It ain't cartell before anyone jumps in saying it is. Just to give a definite, so you can tell the dealer go shove.

If you dont feel comfortable then dont, just trying to help.

Ahorseofaman · 24-05-2010 10:28PM

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

Hey is there any chance of you PM'ing the Reg, I have a program that can usually pull up NCT date, Owners etc, It ain't cartell before anyone jumps in saying it is. Just to give a definite, so you can tell the dealer go shove.

If you dont feel comfortable then dont, just trying to help.

It was the lads in the ntc that told me when it was last tested and it has beeen reported to the guards as well and they checked it as well but thanks for the thought

Merch · 24-05-2010 10:30PM

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

Its time for a english lesson

a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with for the sake of argument.

Not once did i say the dealer was right or his actions acceptable, so your can stop putting words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is all we are hearing is one side of the story, you do not now history behind this NCT, no one here does, All you are doing is going on preconceived misconceptions that all car salemen are crooks, scumbags or whatever other word you choose. I would like to know what you work as im sure i can come up with lots of unfair misconceptions about your profession.

To answer your question, yes i do work in the motor industry, and guess what im not a crook, I know shock horror. I work damm hard at my job, I treat all my customers with respect and honesty. I also know my customers appreciate this, as my overall customer satisfaction is at 96%.

I dont agree with the underhand ways of some dealers, but you or no one else here knows if the dealer had a hand in the NCT cert. Until it is confirmed put your pitchforks away, but by all means if it turns out he printed the fake cert, I would be the first to call him a w@anker from the tallest building.

I know what you mean, I'm not having a go at you, but it seems irrelevant to suggest as below from your post that they put 5k on it when the NCT was out already, if that was the case then the car was unroadworthy, the dealer either knew this or should have known. The car was only gotten in Feb, would you be happy with it? I wouldn't.Yes all we have to go on is the OPs post, so if this is not true then its all irrelevant.

The op has put 5000 mile's on the car. Whats to say these problems have not manifested themselves since the warranty has ran out. The big problem here is establishing that the car was in an unroadworthy condition when purchased, it don't make no difference what condition it is in now.

Ahorseofaman · 25-05-2010 08:22AM

Merch wrote: »

I know what you mean, I'm not having a go at you, but it seems irrelevant to suggest as below from your post that they put 5k on it when the NCT was out already, if that was the case then the car was unroadworthy, the dealer either knew this or should have known. The car was only gotten in Feb, would you be happy with it? I wouldn't.Yes all we have to go on is the OPs post, so if this is not true then its all irrelevant.

Tust me its true .I'going to stand outside his premises today with a sign reading "b***** motors sold me a car with a fake nct.real nct 5yrs out of date.refuses to replace refund or repair.ask me for details before you buy here " and see how he likes that.

langdang · 25-05-2010 09:07AM

Bargain him up from the 800 and get rid of it would be what I'd do.
If you got him up to 900 you had the use of a car for a few months for 300 euro. You can be letting the guards worry about it once it's out of your sight.

Henry Ford III · 25-05-2010 09:31AM

Rarely I'd ever defend a car dealer, but if it was a previous owner that forged the NCT disc why would the garage even have checked it, and why would they have any liability now?

Merch · 25-05-2010 12:08PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Rarely I'd ever defend a car dealer, but if it was a previous owner that forged the NCT disc why would the garage even have checked it, and why would they have any liability now?

You must be a car dealer of some kind,
Well I imagine they should check it is legit for their own sake. They cannot claim to be ignorant of the facts and turn a blind eye to things like that, its their business/job to know so pleading ignorance is no excuse.
I'd try to get as much back out of them as possible, I'd even take 1000 but would def be on to report them somehow.

Henry Ford III · 25-05-2010 12:33PM

Merch wrote: »

You must be a car dealer of some kind,
Well I imagine they should check it is legit for their own sake. They cannot claim to be ignorant of the facts and turn a blind eye to things like that, its their business/job to know so pleading ignorance is no excuse.
I'd try to get as much back out of them as possible, I'd even take 1000 but would def be on to report them somehow.

I'm not. If any car had a decent quality forged disc displayed, why would anyone feel the need to double check it?

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2010 12:50PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If any car had a decent quality forged disc displayed, why would anyone feel the need to double check it?

After this dealer is forced to return every cent of the OP's money plus expenses, I bet he'll feel the need to check in future.

Henry Ford III · 25-05-2010 12:56PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

After this dealer is forced to return every cent of the OP's money plus expenses, I bet he'll feel the need to check in future.

You are assuming the dealer forged it. That might not be correct.

Merch · 25-05-2010 01:05PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm not. If any car had a decent quality forged disc displayed, why would anyone feel the need to double check it?

I'm not in the business either but, I'd have assumed a dealer would think this essential to check, before taking a car off anyone, otherwise how might they sell it on?
You make it sound like you think a good quality forgery is acceptable? I wouldn't buy a car from anyone from now on in without checking, you make it sound like you would. If you did and it turned out your NCT was forged as it had failed spectacularly, would you be happy with your family, friends, children or anyone that might happen to be in proximity to the vehicle you bought subject to the consequences of it failing mechanically because someone else (in this case the dealer) wasn't arsed to check.
If I bought anything as a consumer I have the right to have problems or faults dealt with by the business that sold me the product and not be fobbed off by who may have caused the problem.

I'm not having a go at you, I am trying to point out if this happened to you, would you be thinking the same way, I wouldnt.

Merch · 25-05-2010 01:07PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You are assuming the dealer forged it. That might not be correct.

I didnt see this while I was writing my reply, that persons post doesnt suggest the dealer forged it, it says to me, wether he passed it on knowingly or unkowingly its the dealers fault.
Ignorance of the facts isnt an excuse to break laws or provide a shabby service.

Fake NCT

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