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The ignorance of some people

13

Comments

  • #62
    SoulTrader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭SoulTrader


    Pyr0 wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure there's no Oil in Afganistan.

    That's because the Americans took it all.

    (Just kidding).


  • #63
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    We are people just like they are people. Their beliefs are oppressive and it is beyond even what most muslims believe in. It's past religion even, it's just a complete stripping of freedom from the people. Every single aspect of their lives public and private was controlled by the Taliban. Surely no one should be subject to something like that.

    War is never ideal but do you honestly think the Taliban would have been removed from power or granted more freedom to their people any other way?

    The taliban is a direct consequence of US support, that's true but that was in the 80s during the cold war where the fight between communism and capitalism was still in full swing.

    I wasn't there, in Afghanistan, we only know what has been reported in the news, I disagree with a lot of things about any religion or view that is extreme.
    I dont agree it was essential to remove them from power? just because I disagree with them, war has only brought them more support, they may have fallen from grace if they had been left alone.


  • #64
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    1. The Taliban deserved to be bitch-slapped
    2. So did Saddam
    3. The Yanks could fcuk up a pi55 up in a brewery so they are stuck over there.
    4. Iran is looking for a spanking aswell
    5. So is North Korea


  • #65
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Merch wrote: »
    I dont agree it was essential to remove them from power? just because I disagree with them, war has only brought them more support, they may have fallen from grace if they had been left alone.
    So you don't mind people being oppressed and forced to live their lives as dictated to them by a government that they have no say in?


  • #66
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So you think that Al Qaeda and Jihad is a fabrication by the US government?

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=364

    Enough said.



    The US were spearheading the invasion for revenge but the UN were supporting it to ensure the removal of the Taliban regime.

    I never said Al Qaeda was a fabrication, I said the name was coined in the US, jihad is a different thing (holy war,which I never referred to)
    Certainly at the time I do not believe there was one large evil organisation called Al Qaeda which had the goal of undermining the US. Its a good story to get everyone afraid, circle the wagons. I do think there were a number (many) of small groups opposed to the US, these groups have had increased support and notoriety after they are accused of something.
    perhaps they have since centralised their activities but I still believe it is a lot of people and groups acting independently but who now have a few figure heads. I dont personally think Bin laden was ever the leader of one group, merely a figurehead. Zawahiri was probably the leader of that organisation, but not some overall leader of one single organisation so called Al qaeda


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  • #67
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So you don't mind people being oppressed and forced to live their lives as dictated to them by a government that they have no say in?

    Then where do you stop? most people in any nation have no effective say,
    It just depends on wether that nation is one of your allies or not.

    Do people in Gaza have a say? do people in Iraq now have a say? Do people in Ireland really have any say or in any so called democracy?
    So the people in Iraq have no say after the invasion, now what? re-invade? kill more? or maybe just kill more people in other nations we disagree with.

    The only effect that a militant policy has is to make the moderates in those countries marginalised and give support to the extremists. I'm not surprised N Korea or Iran are developing bombs, I dont agree with their regimes but they were created funnily enough by reactions to US/Western involvement in their countries. In my opinion some countries like N korea should never have been created. ie countries that are militant warmongering, have nuclear weapons and threaten their neighbours.
    Taleban didnt have or do that? I saw a delegation of Taleban on the news in the US, they didnt have N-bombs. they were going around in open back jeeps in their country not black limos, they at least seemed not corrupted.


  • #68
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    PK2008 wrote: »
    1. The Taliban deserved to be bitch-slapped
    2. So did Saddam
    3. The Yanks could fcuk up a pi55 up in a brewery so they are stuck over there.
    4. Iran is looking for a spanking aswell
    5. So is North Korea
    God no, Iran and North Korea could actually fight back - the US wouldn't dare attack a country with defences


  • #69
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    personally i think the op is the ignorant


  • #70
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So you don't mind people being oppressed and forced to live their lives as dictated to them by a government that they have no say in?

    better the dicator you know (theirs) than the dictator you dont (america).

    people watch too much cnn and sky here...


  • #71
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    personally i think the op is the ignorant
    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    better the dicator you know (theirs) than the dictator you dont (america).

    people watch too much cnn and sky here...

    Yup, OP you might want to listen to your Dad, sounds like he knows better about what he is talking about, perhaps you should give his years some credit. Maybe he has enough experience in life to realise that not everything necessarily is as it appears and certainly not in the case where a country has its armed forces in another country and claiming it is necessary for stability/peace or whatever.


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  • #72
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    better the dicator you know (theirs) than the dictator you dont (america).

    people watch too much cnn and sky here...
    Last time I checked America was a democracy.

    Last time I checked people in America were not forced to live under laws as oppressive as this.


    1. [SIZE=-1]Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.
      [/SIZE]
    2. [SIZE=-1]Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).
      [/SIZE]
    3. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)
      [/SIZE]
    4. [SIZE=-1] Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.
      [/SIZE]
    5. [SIZE=-1]Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.
      [/SIZE]
    6. [SIZE=-1]Public stoning for adultery
      [/SIZE]
    7. [SIZE=-1]Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off). [/SIZE]
    8. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males. [/SIZE]
    9. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.[/SIZE]
    10. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club[/SIZE]
    11. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose. [/SIZE]
    12. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place[/SIZE]
    13. [SIZE=-1]Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden"[/SIZE]
    14. [SIZE=-1]Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses. [/SIZE]
    15. [SIZE=-1]Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes. [/SIZE]
    16. [SIZE=-1]Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").[/SIZE]
    17. [SIZE=-1]Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa. [/SIZE]
    18. [SIZE=-1]Banned listening to music[/SIZE]
    19. [SIZE=-1]Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone. [/SIZE]
    20. [SIZE=-1]Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday. [/SIZE]
    21. [SIZE=-1] Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones. [/SIZE]
    22. [SIZE=-1] Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.[/SIZE]
    23. [SIZE=-1]Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap. [/SIZE]
    24. [SIZE=-1]Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin. [/SIZE]
    25. [SIZE=-1]Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily. [/SIZE]
    26. [SIZE=-1]Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped. [/SIZE]
    27. [SIZE=-1]Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping. [/SIZE]
    28. [SIZE=-1]Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban. [/SIZE]
    29. [SIZE=-1]Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed[/SIZE]
    30. [SIZE=-1]Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.[/SIZE]
    31. [SIZE=-1]Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews. [/SIZE]
    32. [SIZE=-1]Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.[/SIZE]
    But of course, if you want to continue believing that America is a big bad evil oppressive dictatorship that effectively dictates every single element of your life then please continue.

    For the record, I don't watch Sky News/CNN/Fox News so take your assumptions elsewhere.


  • #73
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Obama is not a dictator - seriously. Why this need on Boards to find dictatorships where there aren't any? Proof that 1984 has come true etc? America may have some unappetising policies, but when North Korea and Burma and Zimbabwe are dictatorships, then America is seriously not a ****ing dictatorship.


  • #74
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Last time I checked America was a democracy.

    Last time I checked people in America were not forced to live under laws as oppressive as this.

    But of course, if you want to continue believing that America is a big bad evil oppressive dictatorship that effectively dictates every single element of your life then please continue.

    For the record, I don't watch Sky News/CNN/Fox News so take your assumptions elsewhere.

    This could just keep going on and on, many countries proclaim themselves as democracies, I for one do not think the US is one as it is or at least not a very good one, and certainly not how the founding fathers would have wanted it, anyway who says so called democracy is the right answer? (Im not saying it is or isnt) but does that mean they or you have to enforce their beliefs with military force if we disagree? Have you ever been to the US out of curiosity? (this is not meant as an insult) in a capacity more than a tourist or outside tourist areas? It can be quite shocking, I think many people there understand this better than you or I. I certainly believed what you do, until I spoke to different people there.


  • #75
    Magill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    I find it funny how normal people actually think they know whats going on in Iraq/Afgan or what the real reasons behind the whole war actually are. If a government (Ours or any other) doesn't want the general public to know something..... they pretty much won't.

    I highly doubt that the main reason for the US invading Iraq and Afgan was for the good of the native people.... there were at the time much worse off countries with worse leaders/dictators.

    It does make for good conversation tho.


  • #76
    BehindTheScenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭BehindTheScenes


    Magill wrote: »
    I find it funny how normal people actually think they know whats going on in Iraq/Afgan or what the real reasons behind the whole war actually are. If a government (Ours or any other) doesn't want the general public to know something..... they pretty much won't.

    I highly doubt that the main reason for the US invading Iraq and Afgan was for the good of the native people.... there were at the time much worse off countries with worse leaders/dictators.

    It does make for good conversation tho.

    Completely agree with ya.


    Could someone please tell me what about the poor auld farmers. Why aren't we discussing them.


  • #77
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Sykk wrote: »
    I was having an argument with my father the other day about the war in Afghanistan. The only thing he had to say was "How would you like it if the fúcking yanks landed over here with tanks and machine guns." "Leave the poor farmers alone."

    Your father is spot-on. There were active terrorists on this island for ages, and if we'd had oil or were of strategic importance, the same scenario could have been manufactured.

    And like Afghanistan, the invading army would have made feck-all distinction between the terrorists and the decent natives....I think the objectionable phrase is "collateral damage".


  • #78
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    Magill wrote: »
    I find it funny how normal people actually think they know whats going on in Iraq/Afgan or what the real reasons behind the whole war actually are. If a government (Ours or any other) doesn't want the general public to know something..... they pretty much won't.

    I highly doubt that the main reason for the US invading Iraq and Afgan was for the good of the native people.... there were at the time much worse off countries with worse leaders/dictators.

    It does make for good conversation tho.

    Agree
    BehindTheScenes wrote: »
    Completely agree with ya.


    Could someone please tell me what about the poor auld farmers. Why aren't we discussing them.

    Agree
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Your father is spot-on. There were active terrorists on this island for ages, and if we'd had oil or were of strategic importance, the same scenario could have been manufactured.

    And like Afghanistan, the invading army would have made feck-all distinction between the terrorists and the decent natives....I think the objectionable phrase is "collateral damage".

    Agree
    All what I was trying to say myself, war is not the solution.
    I'm stunned at people trying to suggest that it's all necessary because they might disagree with someone elses values or believe what is a mainstream idea (bring em democracy, WMD what a joke)


  • #79
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    Magill wrote: »
    I highly doubt that the main reason for the US invading Iraq and Afgan was for the good of the native people.

    So true I find it baffling that after so many years people still buy this story - time and time again.

    Once upon a time our country was taken over 'for our own good' too


  • #80
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    BehindTheScenes wrote: »

    Could someone please tell me what about the poor auld farmers. Why aren't we discussing them.


    Dont the Afghani "farmers" supply like 90% of the worlds heroin?


  • #81
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    PK2008 wrote: »
    Dont the Afghani "farmers" supply like 90% of the worlds heroin?

    Im sure they arent getting much out of it, could have invested a fraction of what the war cost to encourage them to grow and sell something else, no war, bloodshed,hatred that takes decades to even start to undo, maybe not that simple, but war hasn't seemed to limit the demand or supply?


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  • #82
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    PK2008 wrote: »
    Dont the Afghani "farmers" supply like 90% of the worlds heroin?

    If so, then link to it, and let the powers-that-invade say so.

    I've never, ever heard this mentioned in any of the "justifications".


  • #83
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Merch wrote: »
    All what I was trying to say myself, war is not the solution.
    I'm stunned at people trying to suggest that it's all necessary because they might disagree with someone elses values or believe what is a mainstream idea (bring em democracy, WMD what a joke)
    It shouldn't be a solution to any of the world's problems but do you have any other solution that may have brought about civil rights and freedom for the afghani people (Particularly women) ? I am fully aware that America's main concern was far from humanitarian but nevertheless the Taliban losing power must have brought about a great deal of freedom for the people of Afghanistan. With this freedom came war and violence but it's hard to say which is worse. Living under the oppression of the Taliban regime or living in a country at war.


  • #84
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If so, then link to it, and let the powers-that-invade say so.

    I've never, ever heard this mentioned in any of the "justifications".
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8540726.stm


  • #85
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Truley wrote: »
    So true I find it baffling that after so many years people still buy this story - time and time again.
    Ah now, be fair. What about the US intervention on Chile under Pinochet? Iraq pre 1990? Zimbabwe now?

    Oh, wait...


  • #86
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If so, then link to it, and let the powers-that-invade say so.

    I've never, ever heard this mentioned in any of the "justifications".

    In 2007, 93% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan.[1] This amounts to an export value of about $64 billion, with a quarter being earned by opium farmers and the rest going to district officials, insurgents, warlords and drug traffickers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

    Poor farmers indeed :rolleyes:


  • #87
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8540726.stm
    Page last updated at 17:47 GMT, Saturday, 27 February 2010

    Wow! The yanks must be using psychics now!

    Imagine invading a country a couple of years before the issue was even mentioned!


  • #88
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Wow! The yanks must be using psychics now!

    Imagine invading a country a couple of years before the issue was even mentioned!

    You got owned, take it like a man


  • #89
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    PK2008 wrote: »
    In 2007, 93% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan.[1] This amounts to an export value of about $64 billion, with a quarter being earned by opium farmers and the rest going to district officials, insurgents, warlords and drug traffickers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

    Poor farmers indeed :rolleyes:

    I still never heard it mentioned as a reason for the invasion.

    I'd equate this to Gardai "invading" someone's house on a murder warrant and finding contraband.

    Not excusing it, but just saying that none of this was highlighted prior to the invasion, and therefore it's not strictly relevant.

    Also how many "farmers" does it take to grow that ? Throwing figures like 90% around is just an attempt at justification, while it might be 50 farmers in the whole country that do this ?


  • #90
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Merch


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    It shouldn't be a solution to any of the world's problems but do you have any other solution that may have brought about civil rights and freedom for the afghani people (Particularly women) ? I am fully aware that America's main concern was far from humanitarian but nevertheless the Taliban losing power must have brought about a great deal of freedom for the people of Afghanistan. With this freedom came war and violence but it's hard to say which is worse. Living under the oppression of the Taliban regime or living in a country at war.

    Well which would you prefer to live under, a restrictive regime run by your own people or under the regime of a govt put in power by a foreign govt/s? where you may die in the crossfire if any of your fellow citizens oppose said occupation? or if you yourself oppose it?

    Lets say the catholic church was considered an oppressive regime in Ireland in the 30's how do you think it would stand up to criticism if the British Army came over to liberate us? whether we had a history with them or not?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8540726.stm

    This isn't an article about a justification, its how Russia is saying there is heroin increase because of the war and certainly not limiting the supply?
    this counters your argument.


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  • #91
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I still never heard it mentioned as a reason for the invasion.

    I'd equate this to Gardai "invading" someone's house on a murder warrant and finding contraband.

    Not excusing it, but just saying that none of this was highlighted prior to the invasion, and therefore it's not strictly relevant.

    Also how many "farmers" does it take to grow that ? Throwing figures like 90% around is just an attempt at justification, while it might be 50 farmers in the whole country that do this ?

    You are the one that started talking about "justification", I was replying to someone who mentioned the "poor farmers"

    The Taliban got bitch slapped cos they were out of control, Afghanistan was in 5hite long before the Yanks got their.


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