Is Android catching up fast??

jeromeof · 21-05-2010 08:18PM

I have an iPhone and an Android phone and overall the iPhone still wins. It is not as clear as it was 6 months ago, some of this is due to the 3GS being year old technology while the latest Android phones have faster CPU's, better screens etc. but in general day to day usage the iPhone still wins. Consistent design, richer Applications, better integration with iTunes (for those who like iTunes).

But it is obvious that Android will win in numbers, more Android Phone manufacturers will ultimately mean more competition (i.e. cut the margins available to Android Manufacturers per phone) which will lead to much cheaper phones for the general public, these manufacturers can partially make up for this cost because they don't need R&D creating new mobile OS, just take what Google give them. Just wait until the Chinese start to really use Android, we could be flooded with very cheap Android phones with similar capabilities. Good news for the general public and Android market share.

In essence this is where we are with the PC industry, for Google read M$. Yet Apple have still been incredible successfully, partially because OSX is very nice OS to use (though obviously Windows7 is very comparable now) but mainly due to how well the Mac hardware works with the OSX. Is see the same with Smartphones and the whole ecosystem around them. So, I see Apple with a smaller market share than Android, but concentrating on cool/reliable combinations of hardware/software. I don't think it will be a 90%-10% split though as there are significant issues with the Android model which will limit the overall appeal over time, in fact M$ may make a comeback with Phone 7 series as that Mobile OS is different/unique.

The main issue I see with Android is the diversification of devices/manufacturers involved, you might think this is a good thing, but it means that companies like HTC have put their own UI (Sense UI) on top of Android (to make them stand out), this means that for each device a non-techie member of the general public will not really get to update their device ever. Techie's will always be able, but basically for each device, you have to wait for HTC or Samsung (or whoever) to produce their own version of the new firmware specific to your device, then you have to hope that your mobile operator O2/Vodafone/Meteor etc. decide that it is ok to send the OTA update for that device. HTC for example, are really just interested in the latest HTC incredible (or whatever new device they might launch month) and are less interested in what their customers already have. The Operators are similarly only really interested in selling you an upgrade, in fact, I imagine that most Operators in Ireland especially, would hate the problems involved in the OTA the latest firmware for some device the sold 6 months ago. So, in essence, unless you are a techie, you buy and android love it for what it can do for you but you may look on with envy when a new android release comes out. The majority of IPhones get updated with the latest features via iTunes which little/no problems, all your App purchases etc. automatically working with your "newly" updated iPhone.

Finally, at the moment, I see latest Android phones (especially some of those coming in America at the moment) as good as the current iPhones (much better in hardware, slightly worse in software), but we are comparing them to year old iPhones. Any Android phone (and its capabilities) have to be compared with what will come out of Apple in a few weeks and I think (though we don't really know) that Apple will jump ahead again significantly in Hardware and slightly better in the software, though obviously Android phones will always be able to do certain things that Apple won't allow, but that is a different arguement.

partyatmygaff · 21-05-2010 08:36PM

jeromeof wrote: »

The main issue I see with Android is the diversification of devices/manufacturers involved, you might think this is a good thing, but it means that companies like HTC have put their own UI (Sense UI) on top of Android (to make them stand out), this means that for each device a non-techie member of the general public will not really get to update their device ever. Techie's will always be able, but basically for each device, you have to wait for HTC or Samsung (or whoever) to produce their own version of the new firmware specific to your device, then you have to hope that your mobile operator O2/Vodafone/Meteor etc. decide that it is ok to send the OTA update for that device. HTC for example, are really just interested in the latest HTC incredible (or whatever new device they might launch month) and are less interested in what their customers already have. The Operators are similarly only really interested in selling you an upgrade, in fact, I imagine that most Operators in Ireland especially, would hate the problems involved in the OTA the latest firmware for some device the sold 6 months ago. So, in essence, unless you are a techie, you buy and android love it for what it can do for you but you may look on with envy when a new android release comes out. The majority of IPhones get updated with the latest features via iTunes which little/no problems, all your App purchases etc. automatically working with your "newly" updated iPhone.

All of that is past i'm afraid. With Android 2.2 Google are planning to tackle platform fragmentation meaning that the UI and the OS underneath along with other system components are to be updated seperately meaning that after 2.2 there will no longer be a need to wait on your manufacturer to release the update. System updates will be through Google. You're second point about HTC is somewhat right but as it stands the Desire is still their flagship Android phone for Europe. The Incredible and the Supersonic are both CDMA US only phones. They are not only not sold in Ireland but they won't work here either so you can't say that HTC aren't supporting their latest and greatest phones. The Hero is still being supported as well. They are releasing an update for it in June. All of this won't matter anymore after 2.2 anyway.

That and as for you thinking that iPhone OS is better than Android OS i'd personally have to disagree with you. Some people like iPhone OS and some people prefer Android. Personally, I would never buy a phone with an OS so restricted and with last gen hardware and a high price tag to boot.

jeromeof · 21-05-2010 09:12PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

All of that is past i'm afraid. With Android 2.2 Google are planning to tackle platform fragmentation meaning that the UI and the OS underneath along with other system components are to be updated seperately meaning that after 2.2 there will no longer be a need to wait on your manufacturer to release the update. System updates will be through Google. You're second point about HTC is somewhat right but as it stands the Desire is still their flagship Android phone for Europe. The Incredible and the Supersonic are both CDMA US only phones. They are not only not sold in Ireland but they won't work here either so you can't say that HTC aren't supporting their latest and greatest phones. The Hero is still being supported as well. They are releasing an update for it in June. All of this won't matter anymore after 2.2 anyway.

That and as for you thinking that iPhone OS is better than Android OS i'd personally have to disagree with you. Some people like iPhone OS and some people prefer Android. Personally, I would never buy a phone with an OS so restricted and with last gen hardware and a high price tag to boot.

The auto-update features released where related to applications auto-updating, not the OS. They didn't address fragmentation at all. I believe the HTC Desire 2.2 update will be available in September, not when you (and me) would like it which is now. For the future all Google "promised" was they might make it easier for manufacturer to package their "custom" UI with future versions of Android, that doesn't address any of the concerns I have (only makes the time to wait for "techies" to do their updates much less).

As for the iPhone versus Android UI, I completely agree it is a personally thing.

But for your last comment of "OS being restricted" I presume you rooted your Android already? If so you did this to get around restrictions just like people jailbreak their iPhones to get around Apple restrictions. Though I won't argue that Apple have completely unreasonable rules for developers submitting applications, but that would be more correctly stated as "applications being restricted".

partyatmygaff · 21-05-2010 09:32PM

jeromeof wrote: »

The auto-update features released where related to applications auto-updating, not the OS. They didn't address fragmentation at all. I believe the HTC Desire 2.2 update will be available in September, not when you (and me) would like it which is now. For the future all Google "promised" was they might make it easier for manufacturer to package their "custom" UI with future versions of Android, that doesn't address any of the concerns I have (only makes the time to wait for "techies" to do their updates much less).

System components ARE going to be as independent as possible following 2.2 they are still working on upgrading the main OS independent of UI but it will come eventually. A case in point is Flash 10.1 which needs to be installed via the market and doesn't come packaged with the 2.2 rom. I assume other parts of the system will follow suit.

As for the iPhone versus Android UI, I completely agree it is a personally thing.

But for your last comment of "OS being restricted" I presume you rooted your Android already? If so you did this to get around restrictions just like people jailbreak their iPhones to get around Apple restrictions. Though I won't argue that Apple have completely unreasonable rules for developers submitting applications, but that would be more correctly stated as "applications being restricted".

Yes i've rooted it but that's mainly to access a few more lower level things so I can install Debian and stuff like that

Hardly what you'd call typical use of a phone

Out of the box the entire phone is customizable, every single app on the phone can be replaced. I can replace my SMS app, my email app, my dialer, my contacts app and I can even replace the launcher and lockscreen if I so desire (Lame, I know... :pac:)

Far more customizable than iPhone OS and far less restricted!

jeromeof · 21-05-2010 11:43PM

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Is that not an argument similar to one against the iPhone? Dont Apple release a new phone every year. They don't want to update your phone. They want you buy a new one.
Or are you able to update the iPhone 2 to have features similar to an iPhone 3? Do Apple still bring out updates for the iPhone 1 & 2? I'm not being smart there. I really don't know.

I would agree as far as the hardware is concerned but not the software or your "investment" in their eco-system. Original iPhones got updates for the past 3 years (though not anymore) and any user buying a new iPhone almost immediately gets to restore all their apps/music/settings. This type of experience is lacking on Android, though at least Google has started to address this by allowing app developers the ability to save/restore settings to faciliate this between phone upgrades, but it shouldn't really be up to the developer.

mickoneill30 wrote: »

As for their hardware the iPhone is normally a bit behind other models. I'm not criticising here. The iPhone 4 will have a flash and multitasking a few years behind a lot of other models. Thats absolutely fine. The iPhone experience is to be simple and solid for the user. That's what 90% of phone users want.

Not really, you are forgetting the 3GS is a year old. It was the fastest phone on the market when it came out. It is only since just before christmas that Google/HTC have better hardware than the 3GS (excusing the camera resolution etc). In some very limited cases now, it may still be better, for example, the quality of the touch screen. The original iPhone (even though it was only 2G) was literally years ahead of its time. The new iPhone may be faster (as the iPad looks very fast) have a better screen (rumour is double the resolution so 960x640), front-facing camera etc. but it is all speculation until it gets launched. And I have no doubt that Tegra2 processor Android phones with incredible resolutions will come out later in the year to make whatever Apple produce look slow.

partyatmygaff · 22-05-2010 12:03AM

jeromeof wrote: »

I would agree as far as the hardware is concerned but not the software or your "investment" in their eco-system. Original iPhones got updates for the past 3 years (though not anymore) and any user buying a new iPhone almost immediately gets to restore all their apps/music/settings. This type of experience is lacking on Android, though at least Google has started to address this by allowing app developers the ability to save/restore settings to faciliate this between phone upgrades, but it shouldn't really be up to the developer.

There are many backup programs available on the Market that can do just that without needing to even use a computer. Google are addressing fragmentation but even at that exactly how many features of let's say iPhone OS 3 were usable on the iPhone 2G?

Not really, you are forgetting the 3GS is a year old. It was the fastest phone on the market when it came out. It is only since just before christmas that Google/HTC have better hardware than the 3GS (excusing the camera resolution etc). In some very limited cases now, it may still be better, for example, the quality of the touch screen. The original iPhone (even though it was only 2G) was literally years ahead of its time. The new iPhone may be faster (as the iPad looks very fast) have a better screen (rumour is double the resolution so 960x640), front-facing camera etc. but it is all speculation until it gets launched. And I have no doubt that Tegra2 processor Android phones with incredible resolutions will come out later in the year to make whatever Apple produce look slow.

The Toshiba TG01 released two weeks after the 3GS was the fastest phone on the market at the time, first phone to use the 1GHz Snapdragon chip if i'm not mistaken. Hardware wise the iPhone 3Gs simply wasn't what you would expect on a phone that sold for often near €800 at launch sim free. 3.2MP camera did it no favours either. The iPhone 2G was quite revolutionary software wise but it's hardware spec was disappointing considering its price. A supposed Smartphone that doesn't even have 3G? My Motorola E770V from 2005 had 3G. A 2MP camera on a high end phone in 2007? My N95 8GB had a 5MP camera with 30FPS video recording in 2007. No GPS either. No, the success of the iPhone lies 100% with iPhone OS and now 2-3 years later it's finally met it's match.

jeromeof · 22-05-2010 12:36AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

There are many backup programs available on the Market that can do just that without needing to even use a computer. Google are addressing fragmentation but even at that exactly how many features of let's say iPhone OS 3 were usable on the iPhone 2G?

Almost every app and feature from iPhone OS3 works with the original iPhone. It has the same CPU/screen resolution as the 3G, it just lacked the 3G and GPS support.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The Toshiba TG01 released two weeks after the 3GS was the fastest phone on the market at the time, first phone to use the 1GHz Snapdragon chip if i'm not mistaken. Hardware wise the iPhone 3Gs simply wasn't what you would expect on a phone that sold for often near €800 at launch sim free. 3.2MP camera did it no favours either. The iPhone 2G was quite revolutionary software wise but it's hardware spec was disappointing considering its price. A supposed Smartphone that doesn't even have 3G? My Motorola E770V from 2005 had 3G. A 2MP camera on a high end phone in 2007? My N95 8GB had a 5MP camera with 30FPS video recording in 2007. No GPS either. No, the success of the iPhone lies 100% with iPhone OS and now 2-3 years later it's finally met it's match.

Sorry why are you mentioning a crap phone that was released after the 3GS as being the fastest at the time of 3GS launch? Considering this was a Windows mobile 6 phone, I imagine it was much slower than any iPhone or Android phone to actually use.

I won't bother to get involved in your other arguments as they are the typically ones I heard at the time of the original iPhone launch. E.g. why buy that with my N95 does everything! But I will agree the OS had significant amount to do with it + capacitive touch screen + fast (at the time) CPU + iPod ecosystem. And I would agree that Android is a fantastic OS (as I said I actually have both an iPhone and an Android phone), but from extended use of both it lacks the polish of the iPhone OS but is getting closer with each release, but that just my opinion.

partyatmygaff · 22-05-2010 02:00AM

jeromeof wrote: »

Almost every app and feature from iPhone OS3 works with the original iPhone. It has the same CPU/screen resolution as the 3G, it just lacked the 3G and GPS support.

I wasn't talking about Apps, what features did iPhone OS3 actually bring to the iPhone 2G?

Sorry why are you mentioning a crap phone that was released after the 3GS as being the fastest at the time of 3GS launch? Considering this was a Windows mobile 6 phone, I imagine it was much slower than any iPhone or Android phone to actually use.

We weren't talking about that, we were talking about raw hardware power rather than the OS. Software wise Windows Mobile is rubbish, Hardware Wise the TG01 is better than the iPhone.

I won't bother to get involved in your other arguments as they are the typically ones I heard at the time of the original iPhone launch. E.g. why buy that with my N95 does everything! But I will agree the OS had significant amount to do with it + capacitive touch screen + fast (at the time) CPU + iPod ecosystem. And I would agree that Android is a fantastic OS (as I said I actually have both an iPhone and an Android phone), but from extended use of both it lacks the polish of the iPhone OS but is getting closer with each release, but that just my opinion.

It was all very slick and fancy but it lacked so much basic functionality and had such a poor hardware spec that the iPhone 2G really was no match for the overall brilliance of the N95. Of course it improved greatly with the 3Gs but even at that it was bested even before launch hardware wise and now with Android it has finally gotten itself a serious competitor hardware and software wise. If the iPhone loses market share and ends up like Mac OS on computers which does look quite likely at the moment by the way things are going and how fast Android seems to be growing.

Pittens · 22-05-2010 10:25AM

It was all very slick and fancy but it lacked so much basic functionality and had such a poor hardware spec that the iPhone 2G really was no match for the overall brilliance of the N95

Lol. So for Apple's phones the hardware, not the software counts, for Android phones it's the opposite. Its the software like 2.2. Which is much faster ( indicating that the JIT in 2,1 is ten types of sh*te).

Android phones are effectively iPhone clones. If they have multi-touch that is what they are.

So you really wanted an iPhone like product, but not anything from Apple. Typical hateboyzism. If google had never come out with Android, and Apple still had it's app hegemony you would still be on Nokia, pretending you didnt like touch screens at all, that those kind of things were toys.

If the iPhone loses market share and ends up like Mac OS on computers which does look quite likely at the moment by the way things are going and how fast Android seems to be growing.

Um, the iPhone is not losing market share. It has stalled in the last 3 months in US where it is on one carrier. In the rest of the world it increased it's share dramatically. Were it on 4 carriers in the US would be about 50% of the market ( these are the pent-up demand figures). That said they need to get their finger out and get of AT&T as fast as possible since people will have a software buy-in on Android.

The Android sold so well in the last 3 months because it was given away as a free offer, a two for one deal. Most people who buy like that are not really that interested in the OS, and dont buy much in the way of applications. Anecdotally I dont know anybody who has made any money from Android apps. In general the iPhone is still making the independents rich but there is nothing from the Android side.

Of course the installed base of Android phones is still tiny. however I think the nature of the kind of people who like Android - "rooting" geeks who pay for nothing, and people who get a two for one deal - like the one from Verizon I mentioned, may not be in the market for paying for stuff just a hunch.

Apple should move to Verizon. They could have afforded to keep the exclusive deal with AT&T (which lasts apparantlly until 2012) were there no competition from Android, now - however - they can't. I think they will buy them out. AT&T can then sell Androids. All even stephens. In the rest of the world Apple grew 100% last quarter.

The MAC OS analogy is nonsense, it assumes that all OSes tend towards monopoly providers. That is only the case on the PC, not anywhere else - not gaming platforms for instance. Not phones up til now - prior to Apple - and in the future. And, in any case, Apple is in the position of MS in 1990. More software bought, more people locked in. A larger developer community. ( Geeks aren't locked in because they dont pay for anything but normal people were).

And the iPhone OS - in total - is on the iPod touch, the iPad ( which is selling as many units as the 3GS in the US right now!), and the iPhone. Thats the market for developers. Although iPod sales are slowing somewhat year on year, people are upgrading from classic to touch so the iPhone OS community gets larger.That eco-system, in it's entirety - all of it can be written with one universal binary ( particularly useful for games). Thats increasing exponentially.

And of course, besides the Verizon 2-1 deal for Android phones, the last quarter saw no new hardware from Apple. In the next quarter, and the next year, they will release the pent up demand. I have a !st gen myself, as - although I am a fan - I dont buy upgrades to electronic equipment every year. People like me will buy the 4G in our masses and that quarter will see Apple accelerate past Android again particularly if they move to Verizon.

HateBoyz will say thats one quarter only, the exact opposite of the argument made this quarter.

axer · 22-05-2010 10:39AM

Pittens wrote: »

So you really wanted an iPhone like product, but not anything from Apple. Typical hateboyzism.

Yes, that is what I want. I want a iphone type smart phone without the restrictive nature of iphones. Ideally I want it with a keypad but because it restricts the smart phone so much (size and otherwise) I have to settle for a touch keypad. If an Android phone was not out and Nokia didnt come out with a good option then I would have to accept the restrictive nature of the iPhone and buy one. Why is that "hateboyzism"?

I currently have an N95, excellent phone. Only problem I have had with it is that it is fairly slow but it has everything I need/want.The only reason I am gonna replace it is that it is battered to bits and is about to fall apart.

I have decided that my next phone will be the HTC Desire due to Android being a much more flexible os than the iPhone's.

PeakOutput · 22-05-2010 10:43AM

Pittens wrote: »

Apple accelerate past Android again particularly if they move to Verizon.

you make alot of good points, alot of crap ones too but thats fine

there is nothing, however, to suggest that at+t are going to lose their exclusivity before 2012 and im trying to ifnd the link now but some commentators are saying that they are giving such good ipad 3g deals that for them to do that they may have been promised at least 2012 with the iphone if not more but thats really just individuals opinion.

also has it been confirmed that the new iphone will actually be a 4g phone?

PeakOutput · 22-05-2010 10:45AM

axer wrote: »

Ideally I want it with a keypad

apparently the next wave of android phones are going to conecentrate on qwerty keypads along with the touchpads so you might be in luck

jd83 · 22-05-2010 10:49AM

I hate all this bull**** about fanboy or hateboyism. I have owned an iphone, i now own an android phone. In my opinion android phone is better purely based on me using both phones on a day to day basis. If the new iphone comes out and it offers me better features than I enjoy with android I will consider getting an iphone when ever i lose\drop\sell my current phone.

Pittens · 22-05-2010 10:51AM

Well I dont know what 4G means actually, its a marketing term. Do you mean like the one that was on Gizmodo?

Probably.

Pittens · 22-05-2010 10:53AM

I hate all this bull**** about fanboy or hateboyism. I have owned an iphone, i now own an android phone.

just to make this clear: am not talking about people like you but the kind of folks who hated touch screens and loved their Nokias ( or whatever) when the iPhone came out, or dismissed it as a toy, and are now on Android.

Anyway I use the term hateboyz in response to the term fanboys which has been used in this thread. If we all agree to use neither, then good.

PeakOutput · 22-05-2010 10:56AM

Pittens wrote: »

Well I dont know what 4G means actually, its a marketing term. Do you mean like the one that was on Gizmodo?

Probably.

4g is the network it runs on its the next step up from 3g and can run at apparently up to 10mbs which is faster then most of our broadband services here in ireland

when that model was leaked it was just tagged the 4g as iphones previous model was the 3g but there was no talk that i saw of it actually being able to use a 4g network

this matters little for us here as we dont have a 4g network BUT htc either just did or is just about to release the first 4g phone in america and it uses android, so im wondering will the new iphone compete with the htc evo 4g in that regard

Tom Dunne · 22-05-2010 11:11AM

I presume 4G in this context refers to the 4th Generation iPhone, as opposed to an iPhone that can run on the 4th Generation Mobile phone network (which doesn't really exist in most places).

Anyway, when discussing Anrdoid vs. iPhone OS, you have to ask yourself one question - do you want a polished, consumer and non-techie friendly experience, or do you want a slightly rough-around-the-edges-but-if-I-just-twiddle-this-it-will-work experience?

Android is still not as polished as iPhone OS. Yes, there are features missing in the iPhone OS, yes, hardware is lacking, but it's the same old story when it comes to technology - companies will continually leapfrog each other, with each bringing out better phones every 6 months - year.

We could be having the opposite discussion in six months time.

axer · 22-05-2010 11:14AM

I think because of the nature of Android being able to run on phones from different manufacturers Apple is going to find it hard to leapfrog past what will probably be a constant stream of new hardware emerging for the android.

All this will be great for the consumer though.

PeakOutput · 22-05-2010 11:16AM

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Anyway, when discussing Anrdoid vs. iPhone OS, you have to ask yourself one question - do you want a polished, consumer and non-techie friendly experience, or do you want a slightly rough-around-the-edges-but-if-I-just-twiddle-this-it-will-work experience?

besides there being more apps on the iphone i dont see how android is rough around the edges. if you want to tweek with android you can if your not that way inclined you have a perfectly fine os to run your stuff on perfectly.

however again i think if it is in someway rough around the edges because its open source these problems will be ironed out faster

Android is still not as polished as iPhone OS. Yes, there are features missing in the iPhone OS, yes, hardware is lacking, but it's the same old story when it comes to technology - companies will continually leapfrog each other, with each bringing out better phones every 6 months - year.

We could be having the opposite discussion in six months time.

thats true, sure we will probably be having the 'is this the nail in the coffin for android' conversation in a few months when the new iphone comes out

jeromeof · 22-05-2010 11:32AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

4g is the network it runs on its the next step up from 3g and can run at apparently up to 10mbs which is faster then most of our broadband services here in ireland

when that model was leaked it was just tagged the 4g as iphones previous model was the 3g but there was no talk that i saw of it actually being able to use a 4g network

this matters little for us here as we dont have a 4g network BUT htc either just did or is just about to release the first 4g phone in america and it uses android, so im wondering will the new iphone compete with the htc evo 4g in that regard

In iPhone terms 4G means 4th generation phone, in network operator speak they officially don't use the term 4G, after 3G there is LTE (which the operators here will go to) and WiMax which Imagine are rolling out in Ireland (and clearwire in the states). Marketing people sometimes call either technology 4G and in the States there is a very nice HTC phone which supports WiMax (and is being marketed as a 4G Phone). Most reports I have read suggest that the WiMax doesn't really work well for phones (hence why Imagine are launching it as a Mobile broadband alternative here), it isn't any faster than existing 3G (assuming you have a good 3G connection). Sprint, the network who are supporting WiMax in the States (and are launching the 4G HTC phone) have already stated they are moving to LTE. Ultimately, LTE will win out for phones and when it does it may be ultimately called 4G.

No iPhone or Android phone currently supports LTE and won't until the operators roll out this network, so in a few years we will all be upgrading our phones anyway, to the iPhone 5G/6G or Android 3.0/4.0.

jeromeof · 22-05-2010 11:51AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

besides there being more apps on the iphone i dont see how android is rough around the edges. if you want to tweek with android you can if your not that way inclined you have a perfectly fine os to run your stuff on perfectly.

however again i think if it is in someway rough around the edges because its open source these problems will be ironed out faster

thats true, sure we will probably be having the 'is this the nail in the coffin for android' conversation in a few months when the new iphone comes out

I can understand this "Open Source" argument and would have supported it for years as I have various machines running Windows/Mac/Ubuntu. But in the PC world Open Source has not meant polished, Ubuntu and Linux in general is a fantastic OS (much like Android is a fantastic OS), it is competely open and has been around for years (its core Debian started in 1993), every release I was impressed with Ubuntu features and how much better/user friendly it has gotten. But even after all these years it is not as polished as Windows7/OSX.

I am just using this as an analagy as it is probably an argument for a different forum. So don't assume just because you can "change every aspect of an OS" and because it is open you can get it to do anything you want, it hasn't played out like that on the Desktop and it probably won't on Android. The only thing going for Android is that Google are developing it and Google don't let developers mess with their applications (search for CyanogenMod if you don't believe me). These "Google experience" applications are very nice (best applications on Android) but are not open source in the classic sense.

partyatmygaff · 22-05-2010 12:07PM

jeromeof wrote: »

I can understand this "Open Source" argument and would have supported it for years as I have various machines running Windows/Mac/Ubuntu. But in the PC world Open Source has not meant polished, Ubuntu and Linux in general is a fantastic OS (much like Android is a fantastic OS), it is competely open and has been around for years (its core Debian started in 1993), every release I was impressed with Ubuntu features and how much better/user friendly it has gotten. But even after all these years it is not as polished as Windows7/OSX.

I am just using this as an analagy as it is probably an argument for a different forum. So don't assume just because you can "change every aspect of an OS" and because it is open you can get it to do anything you want, it hasn't played out like that on the Desktop and it probably won't on Android. The only thing going for Android is that Google are developing it and Google don't let developers mess with their applications (search for CyanogenMod if you don't believe me). These "Google experience" applications are very nice (best applications on Android) but are not open source in the classic sense.

The difference between this and other open source OSes is that this is backed by Google and many other companies like HTC, Motorola, Samsung e.t.c.
It's very user friendly and customizing it (For your average user) is no more difficult than long pressing the screen and choosing what to change.
You can't argue that Android isn't as polished and as slick looking as iPhone OS anymore either. They're both very user friendly and very good looking so I can't see how that would be a valid point anymore. Anyway, the only thing about open source about Android is the OS not the apps. Certain apps are open source but many more are closed source.

Pittens · 22-05-2010 12:11PM

These "Google experience" applications are very nice (best applications on Android) but are not open source in the classic sense.

I wonder how much open source code - outside goggle -get's into any of the OS. Probably none except where other paid engineers do it , like the WebKit.

How much of the VM, or the JIT is external?

As an aside it is perfectly easy to write an application on the iPhone using any number of Open Source components written in standard C, or C++. The iPhone is a unix system, it is best described as mixed source. As too is the Android.

Flash is banned but you have the entire BSD stack, and all open source frameworks which run, or compile any standard C. That is more open than Windows 7 is going to be ( and I doubt that there would be much fuss if Objective C did not run on Windows 7), and I am not sure what the situation is on the Android. Can you write an application in standard C? I suppose with OpenGL libraries - which I assume do not use JIT, cant see how they could - you can, but the normal c library set?

UPDATE:

You can:

Android applications run in the Dalvik virtual machine. The NDK allows you to implement parts of your applications using native-code languages such as C and C++. This can provide benefits to certain classes of applications, in the form of reuse of existing code and in some cases increased speed.

All of that code would be reusable on the iPhone and Android.

Of course most people code at a higher level.

conor.hogan.2 · 22-05-2010 12:19PM

It has not only caught up it has leapfrogged Iphone and even when Iphone 4 comes out it wont matter much.

The evo has the faster processor and front facing camera - add in nexus, droid and desire/incredible and the numerous other devices and carriers.

Apple welcome to the mid to late 80's and early to mid 90's all over again - at least they make enough money this time not to have to be bailed out.

But that said I believe Apple (read:Jobs) does not care about being the largest or even second largest Phone or media company out there.

They make a lot of money and make the most solid and best products by their high standards - but Jobs will only be there so long.....

conor.hogan.2 · 22-05-2010 12:24PM

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Anyway, when discussing Anrdoid vs. iPhone OS, you have to ask yourself one question - do you want a polished, consumer and non-techie friendly experience, or do you want a slightly rough-around-the-edges-but-if-I-just-twiddle-this-it-will-work experience?

Android is still not as polished as iPhone OS. Yes, there are features missing in the iPhone OS, yes, hardware is lacking, but it's the same old story when it comes to technology - companies will continually leapfrog each other, with each bringing out better phones every 6 months - year.

We could be having the opposite discussion in six months time.

HTC Sense - You can set up Android to look nearly identical to Iphone Os even with some more user friendly features like htc widgets and an expose like manager.

At i/o they seem to want to unify as much as possible and stop people using bad code and make it as user friendly as possible.

Written from my beloved Macbook.

partyatmygaff · 22-05-2010 12:42PM

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Anyway, when discussing Anrdoid vs. iPhone OS, you have to ask yourself one question - do you want a polished, consumer and non-techie friendly experience, or do you want a slightly rough-around-the-edges-but-if-I-just-twiddle-this-it-will-work experience?

Android is still not as polished as iPhone OS. Yes, there are features missing in the iPhone OS, yes, hardware is lacking, but it's the same old story when it comes to technology - companies will continually leapfrog each other, with each bringing out better phones every 6 months - year.

We could be having the opposite discussion in six months time.

You mustn't have used Android then. I've shown my phone to a lot of iPhone users and not one could say that it's non-user friendly or rough around the edges. In fact they preffered Android OS just because of how nice it looks and how smooth the experience is. It's just as user friendly if not more so than iPhone OS. The only difference is that for those inclined you have far more control over how the system runs, something iPhone OS does not offer.

Pittens wrote: »

Lol. So for Apple's phones the hardware, not the software counts, for Android phones it's the opposite. Its the software like 2.2. Which is much faster ( indicating that the JIT in 2,1 is ten types of sh*te).

You really are starting to sound like a fanboy with each post you make. We were discussing software first and both Android and iPhone OS were agreed to be equal with some preffering one over the other. Then we went to talk about hardware. Since the software on both is equally good then all that's left to judge is the hardware.
Just for your information since you don't seem to really know anything at all about Android OS there was no JIT compiler in 2.1 so it isn't "ten types of sh*te"

Android phones are effectively iPhone clones. If they have multi-touch that is what they are.

Brilliant, so Apple invented multi touch did they? Multi touch had been in development since the early eighties at least and had been used in countless products to that date. Just because Apple claim they've invented it doesn't mean that they did.

So you really wanted an iPhone like product, but not anything from Apple. Typical hateboyzism. If google had never come out with Android, and Apple still had it's app hegemony you would still be on Nokia, pretending you didnt like touch screens at all, that those kind of things were toys.

The iPhone 2G was a seriously crippled phone hardware and software wise. It had a very nice interface but not much else was going for it. There was no App store at it's launch and it lacked many basic features like copy and paste, video recording, basic flash support (Something it still lacks) and worst of all it came with an obscene price tag to boot. At the time for many people the iPhone just didn't cut it compared to something like the N95 8GB whether for business users or regular users.

Um, the iPhone is not losing market share. It has stalled in the last 3 months in US where it is on one carrier. In the rest of the world it increased it's share dramatically. Were it on 4 carriers in the US would be about 50% of the market ( these are the pent-up demand figures). That said they need to get their finger out and get of AT&T as fast as possible since people will have a software buy-in on Android.

Despite a slight growth in sales they are losing market share to Android and Android is gaining Market share far faster than iPhone OS. Take a look at these graphs. Annual to February saw a relative increase of 95.3% in Market share for Android compared to iPhone OS which lost 10.2%

The Android sold so well in the last 3 months because it was given away as a free offer, a two for one deal. Most people who buy like that are not really that interested in the OS, and dont buy much in the way of applications. Anecdotally I dont know anybody who has made any money from Android apps. In general the iPhone is still making the independents rich but there is nothing from the Android side.

On one network in America... How about the rest of the world? I seriously doubt many people signing two year contracts are going to be fooled by just a buy one get one free offer.

Of course the installed base of Android phones is still tiny. however I think the nature of the kind of people who like Android - "rooting" geeks who pay for nothing, and people who get a two for one deal - like the one from Verizon I mentioned, may not be in the market for paying for stuff just a hunch.

The difference between market share of iPhone OS and Android OS is not as large as you seem to think it is. Android has about 11% of the smartphone market right now and iPhone OS has about 15%, the most popular is still Symbian from Nokia though. Seeing how fast Android is gaining Market share gives me the impression they may soon overtake iPhone OS. As for your second point, a minority of people root their phones not because it's difficult but primarily because Android gives you enough control that it's simply unneccesary for most users. "Rooting" geeks who pay for nothing? Em, I've rooted my phone and I don't recall getting my phone for nothing.

The MAC OS analogy is nonsense, it assumes that all OSes tend towards monopoly providers. That is only the case on the PC, not anywhere else - not gaming platforms for instance. Not phones up til now - prior to Apple - and in the future. And, in any case, Apple is in the position of MS in 1990. More software bought, more people locked in. A larger developer community. ( Geeks aren't locked in because they dont pay for anything but normal people were).

What the hell do you mean "Geeks aren't locked in because they don't pay for anything but normal people were". No one gets free phones, there is no such thing as getting a free phone no matter what you want to believe.

And the iPhone OS - in total - is on the iPod touch, the iPad ( which is selling as many units as the 3GS in the US right now!), and the iPhone. Thats the market for developers. Although iPod sales are slowing somewhat year on year, people are upgrading from classic to touch so the iPhone OS community gets larger.That eco-system, in it's entirety - all of it can be written with one universal binary ( particularly useful for games). Thats increasing exponentially.

Android is on Archos Tablets, Netbooks, MP3 players and it's also available to install on X86 systems. If that's not a sufficiently large potential market for developers then I don't know what is.

And of course, besides the Verizon 2-1 deal for Android phones, the last quarter saw no new hardware from Apple. In the next quarter, and the next year, they will release the pent up demand. I have a !st gen myself, as - although I am a fan - I dont buy upgrades to electronic equipment every year. People like me will buy the 4G in our masses and that quarter will see Apple accelerate past Android again particularly if they move to Verizon.

That's how Apple operate, one phone per year but the fact remains that they are still losing market share. See the graph that I posted a few lines above and you will see from February 2009 - February 2010 (Yes that took into account the launch of the 3Gs) you will see that iPhone OS lost a relative 10.2% in market share and Android had made a relative 93.4% gain in market share. That's what I would call exponential growth.

OctavarIan · 22-05-2010 01:30PM

Android 2.2 has passed iPhone OS 3 and is easily an equal to OS 4. In terms of apps, Apple is still lightyears ahead with quality and dev support, but in terms of the actual OS, they're very much on par.

Arguing about which is better is pointless, they suit different people. I'm torn between the two myself. On one hand is the bleeding edge development of Android and the amazing HTC phones, on the other hand is an app store that is streets ahead. Tough decision.

And please nobody try and say that the Android apps are on par with Apple's, it just makes you look like an idiot.

vinnycoyne · 22-05-2010 01:37PM

Let's keep the name-calling out of this discussion please. Also, calling someone a fanboy (or other variation) is in no way constructive and makes you look like a zealot. I don't want this thread devolving into a flame war, because it's a good read.

Pittens · 23-05-2010 01:47PM

@partyatmygafff. I am not going to multi-quote or we will be quoting the graphs in every post from now on, as I answer you and you answer me. However this is a response to most of what you said.

Thats an entertaining use of percentages. The last graph shows android at 95%. Game over? A monoply! No, that is clearly the increase in the percentage of the percentage of the market. I dont know what the original percentage was - possibly 5% or so - so it may have gone to 10%. Apple would have had 20-35% ( depending on what market we are talking about) so the drop in the actual market would be 10% of that percentage i.e. from 35%-32% or 20-18%. Less spectacular when you put it like that, huh?

The reason why I am unclear what market we are talking about is because I dont know what the original data you are pointing to. It could be America ( EDIT: in effect it must be) where Apple's relative position has stalled. It is certainly not the Rest Of the World where, in the last quarter, Apple made as much money as in the previous holiday quarter - a result so extreme it shocked the market . And that wasn't Macs, or iPods which followed the normal trajectory of falling in the first quarter of the calendar year.

Most of the rest of the graphs posted on OS share are based on surveys, and are often contradictory.

Ad Mob in Jan sees iPhone web usage at 50% to Androids 20%. This is a measure of web usage. The NPD/Qannt report which sees Android as catching the iPhone ( in the US only, note) is a survey of buyers intentions in the last quarter. May be correct, may not be. We would need to break down the figures from all the manufacturers.

Also this American increase answers your remark about only one carrier in the US giving Androids away - on a 2-1 deal: that carrier is Verizon, the US' largest carrier, and it explains much of the local increase. Whether the people with free phones use them to buy apps is to be seen, they may not even be seen as smart phones by the recipient - most are given away as presents I assume.

And that is important: Nokia is still the dominent force in the smartphone indusrty but the people who buy Nokia Smart phones or RIMS are not really consumers of apps. And as I mentioned I am dubious about Android's ability to make independent devs rich. Where is the anecdotal evidence? If you get a phone Free As In Beer you may not actually be in the market for buying anything, except the plan that came with it. It is hard enough to get iPhone owners to cough up 59p, God knows.

Also problematic for devs is knowing what OS is being used: only 25% are on 2.x, most people are not geeks and dont update. Your graph, and others like it, are analysed by an admitted fanboy at roughlydrated.com.

I have no idea of the unheard of non-phones you mentioned which were also using Android, but they would have their work cut out for them matching the iPod touch base : the touch has a larger installed base than the iPhone, and the iPad is selling as many as the 3Gs per week - and more than Macs - has has done since launch. Anyway the sum total of all iPhone OS devices - which is important for devs - out there and sold per week is far more than Android OS devices even in the US.

Back to phones alone: we do have actual real data from Apple: not percentages on percentages, but just percentage increases on sales: And here is their last report from their last quarter results - which have to be exact.

The Company sold 8.75 million iPhones in the quarter, representing 131 percent unit growth over the year-ago quarter.

131% is more than doubling. It is hard to see how your 10% relative decline works into that?

Unless the entire world market for smart phones has increased by 150%? If so, why are Nokia treading water in their results?

And on America I gave the reason.

1) The 2-1 deal
2) People waiting for the 4G.
3) One despised carrier.

I mentioned most of that already, I expect that Apple will race ahead of Android when the 4G is released.

People like me who bought the 3G, or first gen are on to buy it ( and maintain our software investment in the apps we have already purchased). However if Apple can break the deal with AT&T at the same time then it will take 40-50% of the US market (where it now is at 25%, I think).
That 15-25% extra is about the number of people who want iPhones but who dont like AT&T. Some of these people may go to Android unless Apple gets it finger out. I think that world wide if Apple get to 35% of the smartphone market - which will be the market eventually since nearly all phones will be smart in about 5 years - and stall they will be happy.

Oh, and I am a Fanboy but that is not enough to dismiss my arguments, as with roughlydrafted. I will refrain from hateboyz comments from now on :-)

Inquitus · 23-05-2010 04:34PM

I had a 3GS, I gave it to my wife and I now have a desire. Android is better than iPhone OS in a majority of areas, my personal gripes with Android are the Appstore in general, and its Irish limitations as well as its media playing capabilities, which aren't a patch on the iPhone. That said the Desire does being a phone, doing mobile web, social networking etc better than the iPhone, what it doesn't do well as the iPhone, is being an ipod.

Each to there own, I tend to carry my work laptop bag with me most of the time I wish to watch videos, so I can easily tuck my 1st gen ipod touch in and avail of its great video playback qualities. If you want a phone for phone needs, get a Desire, if you dont mind carrying an ipod and your Desire, do that, but if you want an all in one device, get an iPhone.

Is Android catching up fast??

Comments