Nice guys, are you one? were you one?

CDfm · 20-05-2010 10:43PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

calling someone Juvenile (even if you did edit it), ?

me next -i want to be called juvenile.

What do I have to do :pac:

Kooli · 20-05-2010 10:45PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Wait til he asks you out

That's exactly what I was thinking!!

CDfm · 20-05-2010 10:48PM

Novella wrote: »

There are nice people, and there are people who are not so nice. My best friend is a guy. He's lovely, does sweet things for me all the time, my life is better with him in it.

/rant!

That wasn't a rant Novella -that was a really nice thing to post. I imagine you are lucky to have him as a friend and he you.

I have some really good female friends and my life is the better for it.

Handsome Bob · 20-05-2010 10:49PM

The lack of dignity, self-respect, class, impartiality, pride and downright common sense from that opening article is quite embarassing. All I have to do to ensure I never end up bitter is just look at guys like the one who wrote that piece.

I mean think about it, in regards to women you like who you are in the "friends zone" with, the only thing that is worse is having a chip on your shoulder over it. It would destroy you. In these situations you have to look at the man in the mirror and say "Okay, I can see certain aspects of myself which I can improve in order to give myself a better chance of making myself more attractive to women."

Don't throw a tantrum and say it's everybody else's fault. The buck stops with you.

donfers · 21-05-2010 01:15AM

Kooli wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking!!

i was thinking he's quite probably gay

CDfm · 21-05-2010 02:53AM

donfers wrote: »

i was thinking he's quite probably gay

even if he is he values friendship and true friends you can count on one hand

so what we are talking about here comes down to the qualities people have and their values

dylan moran does a lovely routine about couples meeting in pubs and the first time they ever have a serious conversation is when she says the magic words "i'm pregnant"

when i was in college a friend fell pregnant and she ended up sharing a flat with a gay flatmate - fellow minorities -anyway he was great.

he was camp as anything and we ended up friends cos there had to be a bit of babysitting for college labs and tutorials and exams
-no student creche

the good thing for him was that he made a lot of friends thru it - our gang made a good friend too and he was judged by what he did and who he was

sermon over

ash23 · 21-05-2010 10:19AM

grandmaster wrote: »

I can kind of understand this but what I don't really get is why people have to keep pushing and pushing and cross the line and need to be told to f*** off or whatever in order to "respect" the other person and have a normal relationship with them.

It sort of reminds me of a parent having to discipline a misbehaving child, only this time it's two grown ups and you'd think they'd know better.

Because adults are ,basically, large children. We all test boundaries. In work, relationships, friendships. Same as when we were kids. We like to know what is acceptable, how far we can go to get maximum benefit for ourselves.

I'm not saying it's a case of pushing so far that you would get told to f*ck off because it shouldn't come to that. If someone won't accept a slight mistreatment and gets annoyed with you for taking a PMS mood out on them, then you aren't going to be foolish enough to think you can order them around like a servant.
But with a doormat it'd start small and then it's a case of nearly being incredulous that someone will allow you to behave that way and pushing it furthur. Eventually it becomes the norm to treat them that way but you can never respect someone who allows you to do that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm a nice girl. But I'm assertive. And I wouldn't deliberatly treat someone really badly. But I can see that if I ended up in a relationship with someone who will take any sort of nonsense from me, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that I would end up treating them badly.
My ex is a "nice guy" but he lost respect for me over the years and ended up treating me very badly. But I played my part by taking it lying down and letting him.

In other words it takes 2 to make a bad relationship and the "doormats" have to accept the role they played by allowing themselves to be treated like that.

TitoPuente · 21-05-2010 10:26AM

ash23 wrote: »

In other words it takes 2 to make a bad relationship and the "doormats" have to accept the role they played by allowing themselves to be treated like that.

I disagree. Manipulative, nasty people who abuse others are 100% to blame. The 'doormat' certainly needs to work on his own self-esteem and should, I would agree, learn to stand up for himself/herself. But the abuser/manipulator is the wrong-doer in the whole affair.

And no - not all adults are like children. Some of us are capable of having healthy, respectful relationships.

ash23 · 21-05-2010 10:39AM

TitoPuente wrote: »

I disagree. Manipulative, nasty people who abuse others are 100% to blame. The 'doormat' certainly needs to work on his own self-esteem and should, I would agree, learn to stand up for himself/herself. But the abuser/manipulator is the wrong-doer in the whole affair.

It's just my opinion. And in my experience it's better and healthier for a person to recognise that they played a role in a bad relationship. Rather than just always blaming the other person. Because until they recognise what it is in themselves that brought them to the point where they put up with it, they will repeat the pattern. Or end up like the person who wrote the article in the OP. Bitter and with an intense hatred of the other sex.

And no - not all adults are like children. Some of us are capable of having healthy, respectful relationships.

Riiiight, so you have never ever come home in a foul mood and behaved like an idiot to your partner? And had them go off in a huff with you over your mood?
Or your partner has never been in a bad mood and annoyed you and then apologised after?

TitoPuente · 21-05-2010 10:44AM

ash23 wrote: »

It's just my opinion. And in my experience it's better and healthier for a person to recognise that they played a role in a bad relationship. Rather than just always blaming the other person. Because until they recognise what it is in themselves that brought them to the point where they put up with it, they will repeat the pattern. Or end up like the person who wrote the article in the OP. Bitter and with an intense hatred of the other sex.

Um, there's nothing wrong with blaming someone who treated you badly when you didn't deserve it.

ash23 wrote: »

Riiiight, so you have never ever come home in a foul mood and behaved like an idiot to your partner? And had them go off in a huff with you over your mood?

No. I don't take my problems out on other people. If I need to get something off my chest, I'll talk about it. Of course disagreements and arguments happen in relationships but there's a mature way to deal with them.

Wibbs · 21-05-2010 10:54AM

TitoPuente wrote: »

I disagree. Manipulative, nasty people who abuse others are 100% to blame.
The 'doormat' certainly needs to work on his own self-esteem and should, I would agree, learn to stand up for himself/herself. But the abuser/manipulator is the wrong-doer in the whole affair.

I wouldnt agree. Certainly not 100% to blame. The doormat has to take some responsibility. I think of it like con artists. Yes they're nasty pieces of work, but without greed on the part of the target they couldnt exist. Obviously if someone is so emtionally or mentally vulnerable that they dont see this, then that is a different kettle of fish. But I have to say in my experience of the "nice guy/gal" more often than not they're going along with it looking for something. If the object of the nice guys affection went away for a month and came back with a sex change into a man, would the nice guy still be moaning on about friendship? I think not.

And no - not all adults are like children. Some of us are capable of having healthy, respectful relationships.

Even so most people are more like children in general. Not just in a bad way either BTW.

Funny thing, when animals get domesticated, the main difference between them and their wild cousins is that the domestic animal retains childhood features. A dog is a wolf. Same species, genes etc. But a dog is a juvenile wolf. Wolk pups bark, wag their tails, play, accept new members, have big eyes, shorter noses. All dog features. Adult wolves are different. Modern civilised humans it could be argued are more juvenile. Certainly compared to the great apes. Modern males even shave their beards which given its an adult secondary sexual characteristic seems a bit odd. Humans play throughout adulthood too. This is all good, but it does mean IMHO that the term adult applied to humans is a big subject.

Plus even that adulthood is delayed more and more everyday. 30 is the new 20 kinda thing

As for having healthy, respectful relationships? Few enough have healthy, respectful relationships with themselves, never mind others.

ash23 · 21-05-2010 10:56AM

TitoPuente wrote: »

Um, there's nothing wrong with blaming someone who treated you badly when you didn't deserve it.

I despise my ex for the way he treated me. But when I look back, there was ample opportunity for me to walk away before things got to such a bad stage. There were a lot of things he said and did that would have lead to a stronger person walking away. I wasn't strong enough so it was my fault that instead of getting out, I got deeper and deeper into it. It was my self esteem issues and my lack of belief that I deserved better that meant I stayed for many years longer than I should have.

No, he shouldn't have behaved as he did and he has to live with that, not me. But I have to amend my own issues before I get involved with someone else or the same thing will happen. But neither can I rant about him being such a total b@stard and what an innocent I was. What good will it do me to put ALL the blame on him?

No. I don't take my problems out on other people. If I need to get something off my chest, I'll talk about it. Of course disagreements and arguments happen in relationships but there's a mature way to deal with them.

Ok, so you're never unreasonable. Your OH is very lucky. but I'll hold my hands up and admit that I have gotten into arguments where I have ended up being totally unreasonable. I have picked fights and only realised the next day that I did it (usually when I'm hormental). I can be feeling sensitive and over react to something someone says and wake up the next morning and apologise to them for over reacting.
Maybe it's immature but I'm not perfect and it happens.

Wibbs · 21-05-2010 10:57AM

TitoPuente wrote: »

Um, there's nothing wrong with blaming someone who treated you badly when you didn't deserve it.

IMHO blame is for the schoolyard. Man(or woman) up. Have a bit of a whine. Learn from it. Move on. As for not deserving it? Maybe not but you usually enabled it and if people dont acknowledge that they're doomed to repeat it.

TitoPuente · 21-05-2010 11:00AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I wouldnt agree. Certainly not 100% to blame. The doormat has to take some responsibility. I think of it like con artists. Yes they're nasty pieces of work, but without greed on the part of the target they couldnt exist.

So someone who wants to be in a normal, healthy relationship is 'greedy'? And why would the other person act like a con artist? Why not just avoid the relationship altogether if you're going to abuse someone?

Wibbs wrote: »

Even so most people are more like children in general. Not just in a bad way either BTW.

I don't know. My partner and I have a very emotionally mature relationship. It works really well. I thought most level-headed adults were the same. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

Wibbs wrote: »

As for having healthy, respectful relationships? Few enough have healthy, respectful relationships with themselves, never mind others.

Well that's unfortunate. At the risk of sounding 'holier than thou' I'm glad I'm not one of those people.

TitoPuente · 21-05-2010 11:05AM

ash23 wrote: »

I despise my ex for the way he treated me. But when I look back, there was ample opportunity for me to walk away before things got to such a bad stage.

Fair enough. It still doesn't excuse the way he treated you and his shoddy treatment of you was 100% his fault. The fact that you didn't walk away was, indeed, your own fault. I know where yourself and Wibbs are coming from alright but just because you enabled it due to lack of self-esteem or whatever doesn't excuse the fact that he was at fault for his treatment of you. Not walking away from abuse doesn't somehow excuse the perpatrator in any way, shape or form, for their actions. It's very much a guilty abuser/innocent victim - black/white case as far as I'm concerned.

Of course it's important to have the self-esteem to walk away from a relationship if you're being treated badly but the bad treatment isn't your fault. That's my point.

Soccertainer · 21-05-2010 11:15AM

Guys never recover fully, they just move on to someone else

ash23 · 21-05-2010 11:18AM

TitoPuente wrote: »

Fair enough. It still doesn't excuse the way he treated you and his shoddy treatment of you was 100% his fault. The fact that you didn't walk away was, indeed, your own fault. I know where yourself and Wibbs are coming from alright but just because you enabled it due to lack of self-esteem or whatever doesn't excuse the fact that he was at fault for his treatment of you. Not walking away from abuse doesn't somehow excuse the perpatrator in any way, shape or form, for their actions. It's very much a guilty abuser/innocent victim - black/white case as far as I'm concerned.

Of course it's important to have the self-esteem to walk away from a relationship if you're being treated badly but the bad treatment isn't your fault. That's my point.

I never said I deserved the treatment. Nor did I say he should be excused. But I can see how it ended up that way and yes, it was partly my fault.

In the article in the OP, the writer basically rants about women and what bitches they are and how they are to blame that he is now a complete b@stard. No responsibility for his own actions there. And so many men and women are like that.
It more people took personal responsibility, they'd be better off.

Being mistreated in a relationship doesn't give a man or woman the right to become a complete sh1t and treat others like crap.
Equally, anyone who repeats the same pattern over and over needs a wake up call and to be told to cop the f*ck on.

This nonsense of "it was all their fault, all I ever did was be nice and treat them well" does my head in. Yeah love, they treated you like dirt and when they arrived home you'd the dinner on the table and a smile on your face. That sure showed him didn't it!

I'm not fully comfortable with using the term abuse as it's a bit broad. I'm not talking about abuse as in violence, sexual abuse or emotional abuse.

I'm talking about things like being thoughtless, inconsiderate, cheating, acting like they don't care about you etc.

Just wanted to clarify that.

G-Money · 21-05-2010 04:44PM

ash23 wrote: »

It's just my opinion. And in my experience it's better and healthier for a person to recognise that they played a role in a bad relationship. Rather than just always blaming the other person. Because until they recognise what it is in themselves that brought them to the point where they put up with it, they will repeat the pattern. Or end up like the person who wrote the article in the OP. Bitter and with an intense hatred of the other sex.

You could argue that this applies just as much, if not more, to the person who's being unreasonable, as opposed to the "doormat".

While if someone is acting like a doormat they probably do need to put the foot down every once in a while, I don't think the unreasonable person can lay all the blame at the other person because they "took too much of my crap".

ash23 · 21-05-2010 04:49PM

grandmaster wrote: »

You could argue that this applies just as much, if not more, to the person who's being unreasonable, as opposed to the "doormat".

While if someone is acting like a doormat they probably do need to put the foot down every once in a while, I don't think the unreasonable person can lay all the blame at the other person because they "took too much of my crap".

But we're not discussing "bad boys, were/are you one?". We're discussing nice guys and that is why I am focussing on that side of the relationship.

The one behaving badly is a whole other thread and I would make the same points there about personal responsibility. I did touch on it when I said that being hurt before is no excuse to hating the other sex or becoming a mean and bitter person or treating people like crap.

G-Money · 21-05-2010 06:31PM

ash23 wrote: »

But we're not discussing "bad boys, were/are you one?". We're discussing nice guys and that is why I am focussing on that side of the relationship.

Not sure how you got this from my post TBH.

PK2008 · 21-05-2010 08:23PM

I go from nice guy to bad boy, from passionate to cold from idealistic romantic to weary cynic from dominant to passive from gentle to brutal from spritual intellecutal humanitarian to self centered animal, from empathic to cruel depending on my mood, phase of the moon or the kind of day Im having.

I beleive it was Socrates said the male libido is like being chained to a mad man and that is how I feel at times.

In order to maintain any kind of social civility I repress my base desires, control my emotions, censor my words and temper my actions. In order to form a relationship with a woman I strive to give full expression to my altruistic attributes and overcome my destructive traits but each day both are renewed and the battles begins again.

When I think of the word "Gentleman" I place emphasis on the "gentle" being a daily aspiration and aq differentiator from those men who cannot control the animal urges and lusts for power, ambition, sex or status that are within all men and that all men battle.

IMO The nice guys or the gentle men are simply those who continually win this daily struggle..............

....or maybe I just have a severe mood disorder that I should really get checked out.

banshee_bones · 22-05-2010 01:48PM

Novella wrote: »

I cannot stand this nice guy shit. There are nice people, and there are people who are not so nice. My best friend is a guy. He's lovely, does sweet things for me all the time, my life is better with him in it. I'm so tired of hearing, "You know he just wants to sleep with you.". No, he doesn't. He doesn't want to sleep with me. It's so twisted that there are so many people who think that because a person is nice to another, it means they wanna get it on.

Nice guys are just people who are nice. Sometimes they're nice to people they'd like to take things further with, and sometimes they're nice to their granny, to the bus driver, to people they aren't attracted to.

I guess this whole thing comes from guys who play nice to get women into bed, but imo that isn't really fair because women do that as well. You can smell the BS from fake niceness though, and if you can't, you should learn or you're just gonna hurt.

As for those guys who listen to all of a girls problems, be that shoulder to cry on, but get nothing back, all I have to say is, and this may be harsh, but it's probably your own fault. That doesn't make you a nice guy, it makes you a pushover and it's not a friendship, it's just you making her feel better and getting nothing in return.

/rant!

Hi Novella!

I have highlighted that part of your post because in the past few months I have been getting that line (he wants to sleep with you/likes you more than you think) ALOT.
It is doing my head in. Some of my closest friends are male. Two that I think of are actually like brothers to me. Never forget my birthday,call and text regularly, and do all manner of lovely sweet considerate things. I do not whinge on to them about my "men problems" If I talk about boys to them its because they talk about girls to me! Its a two way system. To which I hear "oh hes only talking to you about other women to make you jealous!" /facepalm

Anyway I have other male friends that i have made more recently and I have been getting it non stop with regard to one lad in particular and its doing my head in because we are just friends.
There is also a lad from college who is being ridiculously and un-necessarily caustic with me on a regular basis and im told that he too likes me :rolleyes:

Well if thats his tactic hes going the wrong way about it because I will for ever associate him with his sniping cold aggravated behaviour towards me! Sorry thats very OT whats my point? Am, yeah sometimes a friendship is just very much that.

d'Oracle · 23-05-2010 12:30PM

One of my best friends is female.
I have never wanted to sleep with her.

Novella · 23-05-2010 01:54PM

banshee_bones wrote: »

Hi Novella!

I have highlighted that part of your post because in the past few months I have been getting that line (he wants to sleep with you/likes you more than you think) ALOT.
It is doing my head in. Some of my closest friends are male. Two that I think of are actually like brothers to me. Never forget my birthday,call and text regularly, and do all manner of lovely sweet considerate things. I do not whinge on to them about my "men problems" If I talk about boys to them its because they talk about girls to me! Its a two way system. To which I hear "oh hes only talking to you about other women to make you jealous!" /facepalm

Anyway I have other male friends that i have made more recently and I have been getting it non stop with regard to one lad in particular and its doing my head in because we are just friends.
There is also a lad from college who is being ridiculously and un-necessarily caustic with me on a regular basis and im told that he too likes me :rolleyes:

Well if thats his tactic hes going the wrong way about it because I will for ever associate him with his sniping cold aggravated behaviour towards me! Sorry thats very OT whats my point? Am, yeah sometimes a friendship is just very much that.

Totally. Just last night, people were saying what a lovely couple we'd make, how it's so obvious he wants me etc. I was actually telling him about this thread last night, how people went on to make comments about how he'll ask me out some day, he must be gay. I didn't bother to respond because I guess it was meant in a joking manner, and that's no biggie. It's when people insist he's trying to get me into bed that annoys me. He isn't, he's like my family and while I appreciate he's good looking and a great person, I dunno, I wouldn't sleep with him because we don't have what I can only describe as 'ZING' - that thing that makes you want someone!

Anyway, I'm completely OT now, and typing nonsense!

itsallaboutheL · 23-05-2010 04:16PM

I havn't read the entire thread, so i'll just address the question in the OP.

I've actually had a couple of conversations about this recently.

I do nice things frequently enough, be it go out of my way to help someone who hasn't asked for it or can't.

Simple things like make dinner for someone when they're under pressure etc.etc.

I'm also a prick at times, and absolutely everything in between.

IMO anyone defining themselves as "nice" isn't living life to it's full extent.

I wouldn't consider myself anything in particular, i'm not going to try and define myself or exist within the parameters that someone else has set as "nice" or "sweet" or whatever.

I'm me.

I mightn't be nice all the time but anyone that thinks they are , is delluding somebody.

Pittens · 23-05-2010 04:57PM

ash23 wrote: »

.

However a lot of women will fall for an unattractive, unsuccesful man who is nice but is also interesting, funny and confident.

Oh absolutely. Funny is better than hot for guys.

Pittens · 23-05-2010 05:21PM

, I dunno, I wouldn't sleep with him because we don't have what I can only describe as 'ZING' - that thing that makes you want someone!

Anyway, I'm completely OT now, and typing nonsense!

You are less off topic than you think. I would argue that part of the lack of zing between him and you is because of his niceness. In some ways nice guys appear a bit sexless. Were he to meet you less, annoy you more, and flirt a bit he may be getting somewhere.

( yeah I am assuming he does like you )

ChewChew · 23-05-2010 05:38PM

banshee_bones wrote: »

Hi Novella!

I have highlighted that part of your post because in the past few months I have been getting that line (he wants to sleep with you/likes you more than you think) ALOT.

Lol. Same thing happens me. MY best friend is a guy. I've known him 10 years and as we've grown older we've become closer, like the same music etc and do alot of things together. I could never in a million years imagine us as a couple. it will never happen. but everyone else seems to think it will :rolleyes: we get invited to weddings and parties and its one invite for us both. hilarious really. I'm over how pathetic it is now so we just take the pee out of all our mates now. at christmas ''we'' told our friends we were 3 months pregnant. I should be due that baby any day now. hmmm. i wonder what they are saying now because there is no nine month old bump to be seen.

Handsome Bob · 24-05-2010 10:25AM

Pittens wrote: »

You are less off topic than you think. I would argue that part of the lack of zing between him and you is because of his niceness. In some ways nice guys appear a bit sexless. Were he to meet you less, annoy you more, and flirt a bit he may be getting somewhere.

( yeah I am assuming he does like you )

When you say annoy you more, what do you mean?

Snowie · 24-05-2010 04:17PM

Id just like to say i was ina grpoup of 14 people and there where only 2 single people there me and another girl, it was funny because we know ech other well, where not close friends but we can have conversations..Any way, shes an attractive girl but I cant really see my self going any further with her.

Simply because we wouldnt work. But if she asks me for a hug or to get her a glass of wine i will becaue i dont mind... cause women sit there yapping for hour on end while the blokes act like 12 years old dancing oto dance hits from 1998 :pac:at the end of the day i really feel there no point going near friends..

Nice guys, are you one? were you one?

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