Nice guys, are you one? were you one?

Will

Seen this today on reddit - here.

I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

What happened to all the nice guys?

The answer is simple: you did.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were ****ing treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you werent dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've ****ed yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bull**** and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't fúcking want you, now.

Sincerely,

A Recovering Nice Guy

What do ye think? Anyone been in this situation before? I agree with him to a point.

I've been in the same situation that the piece describes; a female friend sobbing on my shoulder giving out about a boyfriend/ex and saying why they can't be more like me. After x amount of time I eventually came to realise that I was being used, the emotional caring side was not being given by the girls boyfriend so I was the supplier, while she got her thrills and such from the dude. Let me be clear, I was friends with the girls because they were nice people not because I had feelings for them (which I didn't).

I will do the odd shoulder to cry on thing nowadays, cos it's what friends do but there is only so many times a friend can do this and still remain sane, specially when you hear the line "why can't he be like you?". If it becomes a regular occurrence I just drift away.

Heard a good analogy about it all; It's like going for a job interview, them telling you that you are perfect for the job, tick all the boxes but instead they give it to the dude who doesn't care and is an idiot. Then to add insult to injury they ring you from time to time to tell you how bad the guy is doing and why can't they be you...

amacachi

Yeah it happened to me, and I'm still recovering from it to an extent.

Sugar Free

I've never been that guy, I never understood it but then I was never real friends with any girls either.

I also never got why seemingly a lot of guys go from one extreme to the other. i.e. nice guy to bitter asshole.

Why can't they find a middle ground i.e. a bit of backbone and not a pushover but who isn't selfish/cheating/insert bad trait.

*Shrugs*

Nervous Wreck

Ah I think it's happened to most lads and a lot of girls at some point too. Tbh, lads are just as guilty of it as girls are, as far as I can see anyway. The real problem though is misrepresentation. Girls want nice guys but a lot of guys think that means 'pushover'. They'll bow down and be a slave for the girl in the hopes that the girl will see how much they're being taken care of and fall for the guy. What they actually see is a pathetic twerp devoid of self-respect following them around like a puppy-dog.


While a lot of ladies don't tend to see an actual nice dude in front of them and go for the asshole instead (and it happens SO much), a lot of lads have 'nice guy' syndrome. They know what kinda guy they'd like to be (maybe they wanna be a sporty type or a funny type or whatever) but are too scared or lazy to reach out and achieve that goal so they relay the blame onto the object of their affection. Instead of admitting their own inadequacies and working on them to make themselves happier, they rationalise that it's the girl's fault. "She's so shallow, she wants a nice guy but she ignores me just because I'm quiet and I sit alone in the corner only ever making a peep when it appears that she might need/want something. She only wants outgoing confident guys like I'm not but secretly wish I could be."


*Ahem* Sorry Will, hope I didn't drag this off-topic, just wanted to lash up the opposite side of the coin....

Xiney

You know what nice guys? You're going out with the wrong girls too. Go out with the nice girls and you'll be fine.


Oh, and quit whining. We hate that.

Red Hand

That article is so bitter its wedged squarely between two slices of lemon. The way the fellow is described as being a sort of platonic friend that follows her about like a love sick puppy, but doesn't express interest seems a little strange to me. Either he is interested in her...or not. Either he is platonic friend...or not.

This fictional guy described seems to be a hodge-potch of ideas all mixed up in this article...friend-zone guy/platonic male friend/gay best friend/potential suiter.

Nevyn

Or the nice guy then becomes an asshole, or a pretend nice guy, who thinks that as he's not overtly an asshole which is true cos he's being a passive agressive dick instead.
Dude if your in the friendzone and your not happy to just be a friend then don't string yourself along, respect yourself enough to get out of the situation.

the_syco

Will wrote: »

and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

How does one act the asshole? You are either an asshole, or not. Or you are an asshole, act the nice guy, and go back to being an asshole when that fails.

Nevyn

http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html

There are two kinds of nice guys in the world. Or, perhaps more accurately, there is a spectrum of niceguyishness.

At one end, are the guys who are just pure and simple good guys, decent people, humanly flawed perhaps but nonetheless likable *and* lovable, caring and smart, who have a lot to offer. Ironically, these guys often do not realize just how wonderful they are and how much they are valued by the people around them, and sometimes they even suffer crippling shyness/low self-esteem. I am fortunate to know, and have known, and to be related to, an unusually high number of guys towards this end of the spectrum.

At the other end are the guys who identify as "nice guys", often quite loudly and defensively, and who believe themselves to be underappreciated martyrs; usually they don't understand why they never get the girl and have at least once in their lives bitterly uttered the phrase "Nice guys finish last" usually in reference to a female who isn't dating them. It is this latter group I shall be addressing.

I have had my fair share of encounters with Nice Guys over the years; and I find that nowadays, meeting people in various online communities, it is even easier to run into them-- but in some ways, also easier to spot them coming.

Here is a classic example of a Nice Guy experience that I had in high school, which I think summarizes the issue. I was friends with a circle of about four guys who were all very tight with each other, all to varying degrees both nice guys and Nice Guys. One of the guys was someone I was close enough to, to consider one of my best friends.

Another of the guys, the most recent addition to the group who was very quiet and who I probably knew the least (and knew me the least)-- in fact we didn't know each other well at all-- decided he had a huge crush on me. This did not prompt him to, say, talk to me more or anything, so I remained blissfully ignorant until I slowly began to piece together the cryptic comments, weird behavior, and snickers of those guy friends whenever I was around. I might have been trying to date someone else at the time, I can't recall, but either way I just wasn't interested romantically in this particular guy so I tried to ignore the signs and act like everything was normal.

Eventually the other guys decided it was time to confront me with it and ask if I was going to go out with him, and the social pressure mounted, from them as well as a few female friends. Since there was no longer any chance of just ignoring the situation, I had to tell the guy that most awful of things, that I liked him well enough but "not that way".

I knew he would be hurt and feel rejected by that, and having been overlooked myself in the past I felt bad about it and tried to at least be gentle, figuring that was that, and he'd get over it. What I was not quite prepared for was that the entire group of guys-- including the one who liked me-- would be furious at me for it and promptly stop talking to me. I don't remember exactly how long the snit lasted, but it was quite a while before they would deign to talk to me again, and even then things were never quite the same.

I'm telling this not because I feel particularly scarred by it still but because it has some of the classic hallmarks of the Nice Guy experience, which I KNOW some of my chick friends reading this will be able to relate to only too well:

1) He fell "totally in love" with me, as it was relayed to me, without having really gotten to know me at all and based mostly on surface attraction. (And although the romantic in me likes to believe that "love at first sight" is possible, the true manifestation of that phenomenon is a *mutual* one IMO, and in any case it is quite reasonable to remind oneself that there is a difference between a swift and powerful attraction and actual love, and that one might wish to take some time to explore whether there is a point of convergence there before proceeding.)

2) The assumption was made, by all the guys including him, that because he was a Nice Guy, I was obligated to place that above any of his other qualities and to date him for it, regardless of whether or not we were otherwise compatible.

3) My feelings or desires did not seem to matter nor enter into the equation; he liked me, ergo, I must go out with him-- because who in her right mind would pass up a chance to date such a Nice Guy?

4) When his feelings were not returned, even with a rejection delivered as gently as possible out of consideration for those feelings, he and the other guys turned on me. All my good stuff turned to bad stuff and I was to be reviled.

Let me contrast this with another example from my life. Random, who is a genuinely nice guy, was my best friend and roommate before we ever got involved. He developed romantic feelings for me at a time when I did not return them, and when he expressed them to me we had a long talk about it and about how we could keep living together and being friends without things being all weird. Here's the key. Random took a chance and confessed his feelings without knowing if I'd feel the same way, but when I didn't, he BACKED THE HELL OFF.

He made it very clear that being friends with me was still important to him and that he wanted us to be comfortable together, that he understood that he had to deal with his feelings and that I wasn't responsible for them, and that it was very important to him that I know that he wasn't going to pressure me or keep trying to put the moves on me and make me feel unsafe or cornered. And he stuck to it, to the point where I *was* quickly comfortable with him again, and tried to make an effort in return to respect *his* feelings and (for example) not rub his face in it when I had a date.

Eventually, of course, I did fall in love with him and the rest is history, but NONE of that would've happened if he'd pushed me to "give him a chance" or treated me badly for not returning his feelings. He respected my decision and proved that he was still going to be a good friend to me, and frankly that might have told me more about the kind of guy he is-- the kind of PERSON he is-- than I'd have learned from dating him right then. And that became part of why I fell for him.

Now the moral of the story is not "good things come to those who wait". If you (male or female) have a thing for someone and they tell you they don't return it, waiting around and playing at being a sympathetic friend in the expectation that you'll wear them down and get yours one day makes you an asshole, not a friend.

There are a lot of Nice Guys out there, and they are incredibly insidious, because on the surface they SEEM so sweet, so misunderstood, so very different from the boorish asshole who cheated on you or told you that those pants do, indeed, make your ass look fat. But in the end, they turn out to be using their "niceness" as an excuse to hide behind, much like medieval aristocracy used cloying perfumes to cover up the ass-stank of their unwashed bodies.

I have some news for you, Nice Guys of the world. "Nice" isn't as much of a selling point as you'd think. In fact, for most women, it's like expecting that your new car will come with wheels attached. I know that you think bitcheswomen only like bad boys and jerkoffs, but we'll get to that in a moment.

The guys I have met and known who could legitimately be called Nice Guys were, for one thing, almost invariably bitter. Either they have never gotten over being picked on in junior high/rejected by the popular girls in school, or they haven't gotten laid in a long time, or they've gotten dumped sometime in the last few years and are still licking their wounds. Whatever it is, they have a huge chip on their shoulders about it, and in their eyes the women of the world owe them for it. They don't usually verbalize it, but oh how the resentment seethes.

They tend to befriend women in order to date them. Nice Guys don't usually just ask a woman out and at least make a pretext of friendship to use as a springboard. This is where they can get confused with actual nice guys, who tend to also befriend women before dating them, but the difference is that the genuine nice guy appreciates women as human beings and enters into friendships mostly for their own sake rather than working them as an angle. The Nice Guy, on the other hand, sees women mostly in sexual terms (although he will deny it or call it "romantic terms") but doesn't have a lot of success with the direct approach, so instead he puts on a charming, harmless face in order to befriend women with the expectation that she will reward his niceness and friendship with sex.

It can be a subtle difference, but there are clues-- the Nice Guy tends to come on pretty strong as a friend, and often makes "joking" sexual comments that can be dismissed as not intended seriously if the woman doesn't respond to the come-on implied in it. He will hang his belief that you would make great friends on the smallest of compatibilities-- for example a shared interest in a band, which he makes an awful lot of hay out of. He may talk a lot about how victimized he's been by cruel ex-girlfriends in a ploy for sympathy.

One of the more glaring things a Nice Guy will do is to listen sympathetically if you are complaining about problems in your relationship and then talk enthusiastically about what a jerk that guy is and how HE would never do such a thing. Sometimes it's an even more overt "hey, if you dump him, you could always start ****ing me". This is because a Nice Guy does not seem to get that women confiding their relationship problems to a friend are not looking for the replacement model, and they see this as their chance to show how sympathetic and NICE and attentive they are and to score points off of your vulnerability.

Also, the only thing a Nice Guy hates and resents more than a woman who doesn't return his interest is a man who is actually involved with a woman. It's some kind of ****ed up alpha wolf pissing contest but he would just love to lure a woman away from her boyfriend (who he perceives as more alpha because he has a female) and thus prove that the nice identity he's invested so much in is really the bigger-dicked one.

And Nice Guys are wholly convinced that they themselves are too NICE to ever do anything wrong, and they genuinely think that they would be a perfect partner, whereas the guy who's with a woman must be having problems because he's an asshole, not because people in relationships have problems sometimes. The Nice Guy thinks he is a white knight who will never **** up if only a woman would give him a chance. He's wrong, of course, because we all **** up with our partners, but the Nice Guy also doesn't like to own up to his ****ups and when he gets dumped, tells everyone that he was "too nice" and the girl couldn't handle it.

The Nice Guy usually has some glaringly big issues in his life that he isn't dealing with-- things that make him unhappy, but rather than address them, he is convinced that if only he could be with someone, everything would magically get better. (Yeah, guess what, it doesn't. You still need to get a job/move into a better place/go back to school/get therapy/clean your toejam/tell your parents to piss off/whatever it is.) For a Nice Guy, all the responsibility for his happiness lies with his future partner. And he *will* put the burden on her, as well as guilting the hell out of her if she gets fed up with mommying him.

Nice Guys think it is enough for them to be so nice, so sweet, so attentive. Because it is enough, they think it's ok to let other stuff slide. Like it doesn't matter if they have good hygiene, because a girl who cares so much about exteriors is shallow and hypocritical if she can't see past a layer of funk to the shining prince beneath. They don't think it's important to develop much in the way of social skills or good manners (although some of them do have a certain amount of charisma). They never stop to ask themselves whether the fact that they haven't dated anyone since 1997 might have something to do with their annoying behaviors or poor sense of humor. In fact, they see no reason to make any extra effort to improve themselves or present themselves well at all-- because they're SO VERY NICE.

Conversely, though, most Nice Guys only fall for a fairly limited range of "hot" chicks. It's because women are all about the status for them, and they are out to prove something to the world. Some of them will deliberately only go after women who are fairly unattainable, if their martyr complex needs some care and feeding.

Nice Guys usually are crap at reading body language and nonverbal cues and usually have serious personal space problems. Women get creeped out because they feel like the guy is literally clinging to them, or is coming on really strong really fast, or doesn't seem to pick up on the fact that they're tensing up or moving away. But since the Nice Guy *knows* he has good intentions, he is deeply insulted by the suggestion that his behavior is unwelcome, creepy, or even threatening. (Whereas a genuine nice guy who misreads a situation is horrified that he might have come across that way and apologizes for it.)

Nice Guys are not patient. This is tricky, again, because sometimes they can *seem* very patient, but in reality they are always chomping at the bit to get into their chosen target's pants. And once they've made a move, they are all about the instant gratification. They demand response NOW. They expect and will pressure or guilt a woman into giving them a chance. It's all or nothing, and if she says no, chances are good the friendship is dead in the water. If it continues, it's almost guaranteed that it's because he doesn't believe she means no, and intends to regroup and try again.

Nice Guys don't actually care what a woman wants, which is one of the keys to identifying a Nice Guy vs. a nice guy, and which runs directly counter to their most deeply held beliefs about themselves. They think that they are great, caring, compassionate partners; usually, they just want a captive audience. They don't have much respect for what her desires and preferences are unless they are for him, because if she wants something different than him, it is attributed to her dysfunction and desire to be treated badly by an asshole.

They may spend some time with pick-up books and things that tell them how to get chicks, but they tend to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit. That's why he'll serenade you on a subway platform even though he knows you don't like to call attention to yourself, and then be hurt that you were uncomfortable and embarrassed by the display. He likes to make a big show out of being romantic and considerate, especially when others are watching, but he will still forget to pick up his socks even if you've told him you'd rather have a clean floor than roses delivered to your office.

But the real foolproof way to identify a Nice Guy is to watch how he treats a woman who turns him down romantically. A true-blue Nice Guy invariably will unleash the scorn and contempt and resentment that's been seething under the surface all along, and excoriate the woman he claimed to care about. One of the favored maneuvers is to retreat behind sarcasm, claim that whatever she found unwelcome was "just a joke", and defensively inform her that she has no sense of humor, that she's taking everything way too seriously.

Once in a while he'll try to keep being friends-- especially if he thinks there's another chance in it for him-- but he'll let fly with the snarky comments about her, the passive-aggressive "humor" that always points back to her rejection of him, and especially so if she shows interest in anyone else. He's just waiting for that romance to fail so that he can say, "see, she rejects ME when I would've treated her right, but runs after that asshole instead, and now she got hurt. I could've told her that would happen!" And you will never hear a Nice Guy say anything gracious about a guy who dates a woman who rejected him.

The most insidious part of it is the way that Nice Guys turn everything back on the girl, make it all her fault. If she doesn't want to date him-- poor, poor him! What sort of shallow bitch must she be to want a relationship but not with him? Coincidentally, this tactic can sometimes score him a sympathy **** if he's got a backup girl to run to.

The absolute key difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy is that the nice guy truly likes and respects women and doesn't feel entitled to the attentions of any woman. The Nice Guy pretends to be that, but secretly he has decided that all women suck (usually for the sins of a couple of them), and he doesn't really care about anything so much as propping up his limp ego.

Guys who are small-n nice sometimes wander into Nice Guy territory, which is why I think of this as a spectrum rather than a dichotomy. But those are usually individual bad habits that are easier to fix because they don't have the deep-seated jerkitude behind them.

The good news is that a Nice Guy can change. I have known guys who went for years with a sucky romantic life and who constantly alienated women who finally sat down with a trusted friend and asked to be told honestly what they were doing wrong. More importantly, they listened and tried to change their off-putting behaviors, and I can't think of one who didn't eventually find real love after that.

But you have to want to change.

There's one of those parody motivational posters that says, "The only consistent factor in all your dysfunctional relationships is you." There's a big ole chunk of truth in that. So if you are reading this and you think you might be a Nice Guy and you can't imagine why you aren't in a relationship, you might want to give that a think. Here's a few other friendly tips, free of charge from me to you:

If a woman doesn't find you funny, it might not be because she has no sense of humor. And telling her as much isn't going to make her like you any better.

No woman owes you her attention, her time, her interest, her admiration, or her love, no matter how worthy you think you are of them.

You are not entitled to have a relationship in your life just because you want one.

If you really aren't getting any women, it might be time to ask yourself (or someone you trust to be honest) what YOU could be doing differently.

Hitting on a woman when she's talking to you about her problems is just not cool. Especially if they are relationship problems.

If you can't be friends with a woman who's turned you down, especially if you find yourself getting really angry about it, you have no business being in a relationship until you work out your issues.

Women generally try hard to make themselves appealing to men when they are interested in or going out with them. So take a shower, brush your teeth, put on nice clothes, and for gods' sakes if you are hoping to get laid, wash your dick. Don't expect her to overlook you being slovenly and foul just because you think you have such a sterling personality.

No matter what you think, you will eventually **** up in a relationship. Deal with it maturely and move on, and don't try to scam chicks out of their current relationships by selling yourself as the perfect partner.

Don't for the love of pete be Mr. Bad Touch. If she just squirmed over a few inches, it's not because she wants you to close the distance.

Flirting without expecting a return on investment is ok. Active seduction when there are clear signs that it is welcome is ok. Trying to constantly slip in "innocent" gropes, innuendo, kisses, or anything else when she's not interested is the adult equivalent of "are we there yet? are we there yet? how about now? how about now?"

Body language and nonverbal cues are not that hard to learn to read.

If she says you're being obnoxious, there is a really good chance that you are being obnoxious. Even if you think you're all kinds of witty and clever.

Likewise, if she says something you did was weird or pushy or unwelcome, mocking her "paranoia" or getting defensive or saying it was "just a joke" doesn't make you right-- it makes you a jerk. Respect how she perceives you. You might think she was oversensitive, but you have no idea what it is like to be a woman in a world where we have to deal with unwelcome aggressive attention all the time. Treat her feelings as valid even if you "didn't mean it that way". She will respect you more for it.

We can sense your hostility. It is a turnoff.

Bring something to the table besides basic human decency. I'm not talking about money. Be responsible for yourself, your life, and your happiness. Have good things in your life that you want to share with a wonderful woman, rather than expecting her to fill the holes in your life. Even if you're a nice loser, you're still a loser.

CDfm

I dont think the guy is bitter -disillusioned maybe.

I reckon I'm a nice guy and have matured with age and one thing that gives you is a bit of confidence when you need it.

Recovering nice guy is pretty witty. I think its his way of saying -right I have been walked over a bit - and I didn't say it before when it happened but from now on I will.

Thats not being an asshole, its being assertive and if a woman wrote it it would be "go you" on the empowering scale.

I reckon RNG just grew up :cool:

Xiney

Definitely - go ahead and be assertive and tell people who deserve it to f*ck off. That won't make you any less of a nice guy.

But really. Do quit whining to the nice girls about the bitch who dates the bad boy. It's all a little too ironic.

Stheno

Xiney wrote: »

Definitely - go ahead and be assertive and tell people who deserve it to f*ck off. That won't make you any less of a nice guy.

Agreed

But really. Do quit whining to the nice girls about the bitch who dates the bad boy. It's all a little too ironic.

Or even the "percieved" bitch who dates the bad boy, and then dumps him for the good guy. Who knows what we all want behind our public persona's? Male or female?

The whining is repetitive, I hear it now and I tune it out

CDfm

I agree with you Xiney.

I have a great circle of friends and am fairly brutal about cutting the assholes/deadwood from my life. Guys don't have a monopoly on being assholes - I reckon its fairly evenly spread by gender.

Xiney

CDfm wrote: »

Guys don't have a monopoly on being assholes - I reckon its fairly evenly spread by gender.

definitely.

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

Dude if your in the friendzone and your not happy to just be a friend then don't string yourself along, respect yourself enough to get out of the situation.

It can be extremely hard to do that. If you're emotionally attached to a girl and you feel very close to her, you can get stuck in a strange kind of limbo where you can't tell her how you feel or cut contact due to a perverse feeling of both fear and "hope".

"nice guy syndrome" is a manifestation of the difficulties a lot of guys face socially, and in particular, romantically. If you're slightly slower than others at picking up on how to act in social situations, to successfully build good relationships with people and ultimately, to establish romantic relationships with girls, then chances are you're going to go through quite a good deal of confusion and misery, possibly ending up in one of these toxic "friendships" with a girl, and all the time suffering in silence and deep down thinking there's something very wrong with them.

Some guys end up becoming very bitter and misogynistic over this (you actually see this on boards quite often), other guys will just get past it (either naturally or by reading PUA stuff or similar).

The rest? Sadly, I wouldn't doubt that this is also a contributing factor to a certain unnervingly high statistic relating to men in this country...

koHd

That long...article? Post? Whatever...by Ms. Psychology pants there was putting me nicely to sleep...then a Damn car alarm outside.

I think I'll start it again.

minidazzler

I'm a nice guy, I think...I generally make my intentions quite clear, whatever they may be. My success with females generally depends totally on my own confidence in myself. Right now I am having alot of success, it seems I can do no wrong when it comes to women. A few months ago I could do no right.

I am a nice guy, maybe sometimes too nice, and have been burned a few times, but if I think back, I have burned girls too probably, especially one who I was an absolute pig to.

So, I am a nice guy almost always, but sometimes my head doesn't stay on straight.

Snowie

I'm a good person, I say what i think and do what I like. If some one can't handel that, not my problem.

To me nice means your meeting other peoples expectations and not your own.

CDfm

Hiya Snowey -how goes it.

I see you have no trouble with the concept that you being a nice guy is no excuse for someone else's bad behavior. :cool:

Snowie

CDfm wrote: »

Hiya Snowey -how goes it.

I see you have no trouble with the concept that you being a nice guy is no excuse for someone else's bad behavior. :cool:

Tireing .... and you?

I don't try to control the soical interaction where some ones giving me the greef, Il say something snide and truthfull in a joking way.. while It may appear soicaly as a joke for those, who know me well enough. They know I mean it.

But to be honest I dont think nice people are perticularly sucessfull in life, to make money you've got to cancel the nice bit out and appear to be more ambiguas, to every situation while retaining manors. I mean from prevous experence being a nice head chef gave me more grif then when Im cnutish one...

If your nice people will take advantage of it. Bottem line.

I've had enough of that.

CDfm

I think there is a bit of difference between being nice as in Ned Flanders or being nice and professionally competent in a Nanny McPhee way.

I have a very good friend, a woman as it happens, who sometimes mentors me on work issues and she describes some people by category. She is wary of people who are "too good to be wholesome".

EDIT And today Im winning

Otis Driftwood

Xiney wrote: »

You know what nice guys? You're going out with the wrong girls too. Go out with the nice girls and you'll be fine.

Hows that?Its not about going out with someone in the OP Xiney,its about being in the friend zone/unrequited love.

Invariably the nice guy ends up with a nice girl,it can just take a little longer.

I have a couple of male friends that I would consider to be genuinely nice guys.Great sense of humour,no pretensions,just straight up and honest.2 in particular spring to mind.Both developed feelings for someone that to a certain extent was using them as an emotional crutch,both got burned,learned a harsh lesson and moved one.

Both now in LTR's,one married expecting their first child in 6 or 7 weeks,the other soon to be engaged,both girls are total sweethearts.

Xiney wrote: »

.
Oh, and quit whining. We hate that.

Emmm,pot - kettle - black?


Like my old buddy Jeebus said,let (s)he without sin cast the first stone.


To be fair though,the guy in the OP is a bit OTT.

d'Oracle

the_syco wrote: »

How does one act the asshole? You are either an asshole, or not. .

That is rubbish

CDfm

nedtheshed wrote: »

Emmm,pot - kettle - black?


Like my old buddy Jeebus said,let (s)he without sin cast the first stone.

How did I miss that. Too busy ranting.

Gratuitious use of the "Royal We" by Xiney

Should I bow


tongue firmy in cheek

Snowie

CDfm wrote: »

I think there is a bit of difference between being nice as in Ned Flanders or being nice and professionally competent in a Nanny McPhee way.

I have a very good friend, a woman as it happens, who sometimes mentors me on work issues and she describes some people by category. She is wary of people who are "too good to be wholesome".

EDIT And today Im winning

Theres big difference between having a can do atitude and being as your friends too good to be whole some, i can be friendly but work is workyou start going soical on that Sh!t and it can be a ticking time bomb....

CDfm

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

Theres big difference between having a can do atitude and being as your friends too good to be whole some, i can be friendly but work is workyou start going soical on that Sh!t and it can be a ticking time bomb....

I think you have to operate by certain standards and be ethical. Some guys do get manipulated by women who have no intention of going out with them.

Just like that I have had a work spat for a while with someone who in the workplace uses every trick in the book.

So being able to recognise it and deal with it is a life thing.

Pherekydes

Xiney wrote: »

You know what nice guys? You're going out with the wrong girls too. Go out with the nice girls and you'll be fine.

They're going out with assholes.

Xiney wrote: »

Oh, and quit whining. We hate that.

Hey, it's our prerogative to whine in here!

Kanoe

really..unless a guy is gay, married or related I find it hard to believe he only wants to be friends. I've known a guy for 12 years and he will never ever get married/settle down or have kids because he spends more of his time being befriending women than dating them. He's a bit weird though.

TanG411

My friend is definately a nice guy towards women. He does like one girl in perticular, so he does everything she asks him. It is clear that he is being used, and I have said that to him, but he says he isn't.
The girl even called him a ''Puppy on a hot day'' to me, behind his back. It is like he gets excited whenever he sees her and just goes over to her trying to strike up a conversation.

liah

It's a shame what Thaedydal posted is so long, as not many people will actually finish it, but it is so, so, SO damn true.

Agree 100% with whoever wrote that. 110%. That type of nice guy drives me nuts, and I can definitely tell the difference between a legitimately nice guy and a nice guy like the one in that blog post.

Now if only all these self-proclaimed "nice guys" would just read it and cop the hell on and stop making wild accusations about the type of men women go for.. oh, a girl can only dream.

CDfm

Larkin91 wrote: »

My friend is definately a nice guy towards women. He does like one girl in perticular, so he does everything she asks him. It is clear that he is being used, and I have said that to him, but he says he isn't.
The girl even called him a ''Puppy on a hot day'' to me, behind his back. It is like he gets excited whenever he sees her and just goes over to her trying to strike up a conversation.

Well is she is taking advantage of him in a way that is costing him money especially money he can't afford?

If it isn't there is no harm in it and telling him is a bit gratuitious and I would try to point him towards someone who likes him.

Anyway the bubble will burst eventually of its own accord.

Pherekydes

CDfm wrote: »

"do not [...]mess with ye stalke"

.

Nice guys don't do this. :pac:

SugarHigh

liah wrote: »

It's a shame what Thaedydal posted is so long, as not many people will actually finish it, but it is so, so, SO damn true.

Agree 100% with whoever wrote that. 110%. That type of nice guy drives me nuts, and I can definitely tell the difference between a legitimately nice guy and a nice guy like the one in that blog post.

Now if only all these self-proclaimed "nice guys" would just read it and cop the hell on and stop making wild accusations about the type of men women go for.. oh, a girl can only dream.

I think most guys go through the phase she described.

BLACKEN

Yeh i'd say i was once like that "nice guy" but to be honest it just don't work most of the time! and as for the idea of changing into an asshole!? Well yeh you could do that but then your no better than the assholes in every bar or on every corner of the country!

So the question is.......... What do you do??

Firstly most of these nice guys........ well there just that too NICE,
like i hold doors open for a girl! Why not??? but what i won't do is let her cry on my shoulder when that dickhead of a bf is giving her ****! **** THAT! Just look her in the eye like a MAN and tell her YOUR better than him! Its a coinfidence thing.

Every guy will realised that they have to be more like a dickhead to get the girl they deserved, i'm a hard working guy who truly deserves a decent chance with the ladies i knew there was a happy middle place. Women are attracted to the confident, cocky and entertaining to be around part of these dickheads not the other unfortunate bull**** parts of them.

This whole nice guy thing well its just hardwired into some guys often by there parents, relatives who say you have to treat a girl with respect etc.

Yes thats true but you got to show a girl that not only are you a gentleman but also fun and full of excitement! The simple thing to do is combine the best parts of these types of personalities! Not only do you not change who you are you also improve yourself!

speedboatchase

I probably was a "nice guy" in the first big relationships, mainly because I was really afraid of losing the person I was with and over-compensating. In truth though it depends on how you treat certain people, I'm sure some women I (and not really proud of) "used" when I was single would think I'm bad, but I'm sure my gf thinks I'm nice Although I do assert myself and stand my ground a lot more than I would have in the past, definitely

Dinkie

Somebody just posting in food and drink looking for ways to increase he celery intake :rolleyes:

I go out with a 'nice guy'. he is wonderful.... so nice guys do sometimes get the girl.

I bet a lot of the nice guys never tell the girl that they actually like them. Girls are not mind readers!

Rented Mule

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html

Whew ....you should have served lunch in the middle of that article lol

Very honest and open article from the author.

TitoPuente

Rented Mule wrote: »

Whew ....you should have served lunch in the middle of that article lol

Very honest and open article from the author.

Misandry really.

G-Money

I kind of used to suffer from this affliction. I'd be too nice a few times sort of had to listen to girls bang on about some other guy that they liked. I'm just at the point now though where I don't bother with it anymore. Don't get me wrong, I think I'm a decent enough person and I try to treat people well. But I'm simply not interested in hearing any girl (whether I fancy her or not) go on about whatever guy she's seeing, or not seeing or whatever. As soon as I hear the conversation drift towards that, I zone out and make my escape.

SugarHigh

Dinkie wrote: »

Somebody just posting in food and drink looking for ways to increase he celery intake :rolleyes:

I go out with a 'nice guy'. he is wonderful.... so nice guys do sometimes get the girl.

I bet a lot of the nice guys never tell the girl that they actually like them. Girls are not mind readers!

the_syco

d'Oracle wrote: »

That is rubbish

Could well be. Still have no idea how to act like an asshole, though.

minidazzler

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html

Having read that whole thing...which was REALLY long...I realised I have been the Nice Guy in the past, never really actually noticed it until now!! I don't think I am generally that type of person, but I have been that guy a few times it seems!

Scarinae

TitoPuente wrote: »

Misandry really.

Did you actually read the whole thing? How is it misandry, there is no evidence of her hating men, just creepy behaviour exhibited by some men which they try to claim proves that they are 'Nice'

TitoPuente

Fishie wrote: »

Did you actually read the whole thing?

Yes.

Fishie wrote: »

How is it misandry, there is no evidence of her hating men, just creepy behaviour exhibited by some men which they try to claim proves that they are 'Nice'

It reads as one side of a story to me. And how exactly is poor personal hygiene specific to these "Nice Guys" that she's categorised? How is it even relevant to her point? She seems to talk about it a lot as if to demonise certain men that she didn't like enough by essentially calling them 'smelly'. Very mature.

I wouldn't consider myself a "Nice Guy" or even a nice guy... but reading between the lines, I'm assuming that nice guys are the ones she liked that she felt were 'good enough' for her and "Nice Guys" were the ones she strung along, used them for what she needed them for and ultimately treated them like crap because they weren't good enough. Now she's justifying her reckless, insensitive and abusive behaviour. Not to sound like I'm projecting anything of myself here (honest) but I've seen this nonsense in real life so many times that it's not even funny. Unfortunately there are some women out there who'll go out with guys and treat them like s**t solely for an ego boost. Two sides to every story is all I'm saying. Ask yourself - why would the author have such an extensive knowledge of "Nice Guys"... surely she'd have learned to avoid them by now?

Wibbs

TitoPuente wrote: »

It reads as one side of a story to me. And how exactly is poor personal hygiene specific to these "Nice Guys" that she's categorised? How is it even relevant to her point? She seems to talk about it a lot as if to demonise certain men that she didn't like enough by essentially calling them 'smelly'. Very mature.

Yea I picked that one up alright. Plus the first example in her high school, where first she said she was friends with the guy and next she says he only went for her for surface attraction and couldnt know who she was. For a start that does not compute unless she has different definitions of friendship. Secondly, word to the wise Nice/nice/bad boys nearly always go for your looks first and then figure out if the personality clicks. Exactly the same as women too BTW. Women are far more likely to come out with "love at first sight", "our eyes met across a crowded room and I just knew" or "I felt the spark" than men. Hate to break it down, but that's entirely based on looks, the itch down below, with a small side order of personality that's only in play when you actually talk. In that case you're more ready to start bating aquare pegs into round holes. To be fair to the author, she kinda poo pooed the love at first sight BS.

I wouldn't consider myself a "Nice Guy" or even a nice guy... but reading between the lines, I'm assuming that nice guys are the ones she liked that she felt were 'good enough' for her and "Nice Guys" were the ones she strung along, used them for what she needed them for and ultimately treated them like crap because they weren't good enough.

Men can do similar. Ive known enough men who after being introduced to a genuinely nice woman have crossed her off the list, simply because she wasnt considered good enough. Which usually means not pretty enough.

Now she's justifying her reckless, insensitive and abusive behaviour. Not to sound like I'm projecting anything of myself here (honest) but I've seen this nonsense in real life so many times that it's not even funny. Unfortunately there are some women out there who'll go out with guys and treat them like s**t solely for an ego boost.

Oh so have I. Both genders do it though. Women do it more yes, but that's down to more opportunity. Women get approached more. Women at 18 are usually more socially mature than men. Its a numbers game more than anything. Of the men Ive known who did it they strung women along sexually rather than emotionally and because they were more socially clued in and attractive they had enough willing women to get away with it. T

wo sides to every story is all I'm saying.

I agree.

Ask yourself - why would the author have such an extensive knowledge of "Nice Guys"... surely she'd have learned to avoid them by now?

True.

All that said she does have a point about a certain type of usually young socially and sexually inexperienced man. That all too often becomes bitter from this. IMHO the "truth" lies somewhere between the two articles.

OP question? Not really. Im more a bollox tbh.

Table Top Joe

liah wrote: »

It's a shame what Thaedydal posted is so long, as not many people will actually finish it, but it is so, so, SO damn true.

Agree 100% with whoever wrote that. 110%. That type of nice guy drives me nuts, and I can definitely tell the difference between a legitimately nice guy and a nice guy like the one in that blog post.

Now if only all these self-proclaimed "nice guys" would just read it and cop the hell on and stop making wild accusations about the type of men women go for.. oh, a girl can only dream.

Im a guy but id have to agree with the above,ive worked with a lot of women for years and (like to)think ive gotten some insight into womens minds(not enough to get laid anytime recently mind you....but i digress)

Anywho,some of the "nice guys" out there arent really nice guys,theyre pathetic,ive known some of them,one in particular was puzzled about why his girlfriend had left him and he couldnt get another,as he told me "i dont get it,i do everything for her,buy her presents all the time,i phone her every few hours..." and so on,basically the clingiest man youve ever met in your life,he never gave his girlfriend or any girl he's fancied since a moments peace,and when they didnt appreciate it they were naturally,bitches,he was by the far the worst but they are out there


Having said that there are women who go for assholes,no two ways about it,one i knew was constantly moaning about men and how theyre all assholes "no theyre not,you just keep going for dickheads,its your own fault" i said(taking me out of the pathetic nice guy category thank God)



So....lost my train of thought there.....that article is right,the first one is written by a bitter loser,women arent looking for a pushover,thats the main thing to learn here i think,same way as men arent looking for a drinking buddy....but thats another argument

PK2008

Used to be a nice guy, then after a few set backs stopped caring and became a bit of a bad boy for a while. Now Im comfortable enough to be nice to and to care for those who deserve it and tell the rest to take a hike.



But without a doubt I got the most women of my life during my 'bad boy' phase. Sorry but its the truth.

CDfm

Thats sensible PK2008

There is a difference between being a nice"but firm" guy and being gullible.

Some girls are like Eddie Hobbs -"short hands, deep pockets" but not the majority.

Thibor

Do people seriously still thank of themselves as Nice Guys/Girls or Bad Boys/Girls?

It seems to me to be a bit of a childish title to be giving themselves.
When I was younger I used to class myself as a nice guy (read that really really long article and ended up comfusing which nice guy was the real nice guy), and I think to a certain extent, the author kind of contradicted herself and got a little petty and immature with the smelly comments.

Sorry, I drifted away from my point there.

Basically, treat people the way you expect to be treated. Yeah, the odd time it's ok to listen to a friend about their problems, and to help out with stuff, but you ALWAYS know when the pi$$ is getting taken, and they're taking advantage. The big issue the the fact that people lack the nerve to do something about it, they'd rather just go along with things, pretending to themselves and other that their happy with how things are going. Grow up and face facts, if you don't do something about your situation, then it'll never get resolved. True, it might not end in roses, but at the end of the day, at least you'll know where you stand and you can decided where to go from there, do you ACTUALLY like this person enough to stay friends once you know there's no future relationship, or does this person really mean enough to you to carry on as "just friends"

Apologies if my not so mini rant wasn't quite articulate enough, but I realised all the above a long time ago, and I just don't understand how people are still going through the same thing. Ok, I get it that teenagers and maybe those in their early 20's might get caught up in this, but anyone over that age needs to really sit down and think about things

DevilsBreath

I have been in every relationship. Which is why I’ve stopped bothering.

I broke it off with my last one as I was just being taken advantage of, 4 years of my life lost right there.

Single life is so much easier, has some huge draw backs though.

Greyfox

Thibor wrote: »

but I realised all the above a long time ago, and I just don't understand how people are still going through the same thing. Ok, I get it that teenagers and maybe those in their early 20's might get caught up in this, but anyone over that age needs to really sit down and think about things

Yes you realised this a long time ago but theirs loads of guys out their that take many, many years to realise this (I took a while myself) theirs plenty of these poor sods in their late 20's and early 30's out their that still have not copped on and some that never will, I feel so sorry for these idiots. This thread is very interesting because theirs so many nice guys out their and all it takes is for these guys to stop been nice and agreeable all the time, stop been a doormat for women and to stop trying too hard. Once they learn this very important life lesson their success with women will improve very, very quickly.