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First abortion ad to air next week

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Comments

  • #62
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    Actually is is pefectly legal provided there is a risk to the life of the mother as distinct from her health. You can obtain an abortion legally here.
    I believe that it is the case that if the baby will die as the result of treatment the mother receives due to a medical condition then it is legal. I view abortion as an act were the aim is to kill the child. "abortion" here only occurs as an unintended side affect. As in if it could be avoided it would be.

    I am open to correction though.


  • #63
    fearcruach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭fearcruach


    One part of this argument that I've never understood is how people consider abortion as a form of birth control, hence it being a problem. Abortion costs a minimum of €600 which I doubt anyone considers cost effective.

    Linky:

    http://www.ifpa.ie/eng/Pregnancy-Counselling/About-Abortion


  • #64
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If I am wrong in saying that it is barbaric, how come it wouldn't be deemed appropriate to show a full length abortion to a sex-ed class?

    I wouldn't be appropriate to show a full gynecological examination either. Doesn't mean it should be illegal.


  • #65
    Boxoffrogs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 458 ✭✭Boxoffrogs


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Abortion is the single greatest evil taking place in the World today. To those who say "if you don't want to don't do it" Well how about you apply that to other crimes? Like Murder? Its sickening. I don't know how anyone can condone abortion. And for those who say that an embryo isn't really a baby: To you I say this: you tell that to a couple who have suffered the tragedy of a miscarriage. It is nothing short of murder. It literally sickens me. Pro choice? What a joke. People shouldn't have the power to literally chose to have a baby SHREDDED. Simply pure evil.
    Sure I feel sorry for those with unplanned pregnancies or those who have been raped, but that isn't the babies fault. Murder isnt the answer.

    No it's not murder. I realise it's quite an emotive subject and respect anyone's right to have an opinion, but to label those that have abortions as murderers is way off the mark.

    Back on topic, this ad is to be aired in the UK, is there a chance that this will not even appear on our screens? It seems that some channels can throw on adverts applicable to the viewing region. If so, I wonder whey everyone seems to be getting their panties in a twist.


  • #66
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't know what's untruthful about saying that life begins when the sperm and ova fuse to form a zygote. That's the point when growth is first exhibited a continuous process. I don't know what could be said to be dishonest about that.

    Most of the points on the pro-choice side regard arbitrary philosophical definitions of what life is.

    You have one person saying, I don't believe that something is alive until it can think, but really, all thinking is is one step of development in life. It's kind of like saying that I don't believe that someone isn't truly alive until they can play the accordion, play the fiddle and ride a unicycle at the same time.

    It's meaningless. It's all about people constructing definitions, to create environments that suit them over the unborn. It's a serious game of semantics, and unfortunately it is a game that has worked.

    The justification, it's just a foetus, has resulted in children born at 22 weeks being left to die in hospitals in Britain because they are below the required age for treatment. In other words, it was just a foetus.

    Children that survive abortion operations, are left to die in many countries, such as this case in Italy. In the USA, this used to be the case until the Bush Administration in 2002 affirmed the right of all children who survive outside of the womb to be regarded as human beings.

    Indeed, this is one survivor of abortion speaking in Australia on the subject:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ


    My views might be offensive to some, but I can't support abortion-by-choice if I am to give life the value that it deserves.

    Im loving your role as more reasoned, rational MUSSOLINI. Im glad AH doesnt allow pictures as I could MUSSOLINI spamming this thread with pictures of abortions.

    Look your argument is one you are extremely entitled to have. It is just the more unhinged parties of the pro-choice and the discourse they use which is bothersome to me.


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  • #67
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    or Maury
    The Angelus?


  • #68
    Penny Dreadful
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Penny Dreadful


    diddledum wrote: »
    No it's not murder. I realise it's quite an emotive subject and respect anyone's right to have an opinion, but to label those that have abortions as murderers is way off the mark.

    Back on topic, this ad is to be aired in the UK, is there a chance that this will not even appear on our screens? It seems that some channels can throw on adverts applicable to the viewing region. If so, I wonder whey everyone seems to be getting their panties in a twist.

    Apparently it has been confirmed that the ad will be aired here.


  • #69
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    I'm not saying that the child will be abused. I was saying that in relation to the other posters belief that abortion is the worst / greatest evil in the world. I was simply pointing out a tiny amount of the things that (IMHO) are worse than abortion.
    Again I'm not claiming authority over deciding whose life is worth living or not but there are cases of children being born who are so badly handicapped in every way that they simply exist for a few hours, few days, or a few short years. They endure rather than live and there are some people, who are not evil monstors, that think they are actually doing a greater good by terminating the pregnancy than give birth to a baby that will have to endure that sort of life.

    It's pretty bad. I personally think 50 million terminations in a year is when we have to sit back and really think about whether or not we are doing the right thing.

    As for the badly handicapped stuff, this indicates a lot of foreknowledge. The Irish law currently allows for abortion in medical emergencies. Abortion is too serious to be regarded as a choice from my point of view. Even if there is a legitimate case, and you know 100%, these only result in a very small minority of cases. It still does not convince that it is acceptable in the majority of cases to abort.
    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    I'm not an idiot, I simply have a different opinion than your have. The foetus is growing inside the woman's body, it is her body. Similarly I don't believe that at the early stages of pregnancy that it is a baby, it is a foetus. For me there is a difference for you there isn't, as is your choice.

    What does growth tell you about the foetus as a human biological life form?
    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    If people practiced safe sex then many things would be cut to a great degree not just unplanned, unwanted pregnancies. I cannot fathom why so many people take risks with unsafe sex and I'm referring to STIs not just pregnancy. There are killer diseases out there and still people can be silly and not use a condom so yes I agree with you about that.

    It's the amount of death itself that is very disheartening, even before we get into the discussion about whether or not it is acceptable to abort in serious cases and so on. The death that is caused by situations where people are careless is just depressing to me.
    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    No form of contraception is 100% effective though and unplanned, unwanted pregnancies will occur. I am of the opinion that a woman has the right to choose. I am not saying that I would have an abortion if I got pregnant now, but at 32, have a job, have my education, own my home, etc having a child wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to me despite being single. However, if I had fallen pregnant at 20, not finished my degree, no job, no money, no future, then I may well have explored and possibly availed of the opportunity to terminate. Thankfully it is not a decision I've had to make.
    There are few women who take a termination lightly. It is an invasive medical procedure that has to be carried out on her body and as with all procedures it is not without its risks. The psychological scars can be deep and painful and stay with her forever. Its not an easy decision to make for the vast majority.

    Indeed. Not all contraception is 100% effective.

    However, the question we need to ask is "Are conjugal rights more important than the right to life?"

    The effectiveness of contraception is a reason why people should ensure that they are ready to accept the consequences in the case that it should fail. I.E that they are in a stable enough situation to deal with an unplanned pregnancy and bring it to birth. Otherwise, it would send warning signals as to whether or not one can accept the risks.

    Of course that is just my take on it.


  • #70
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    diddledum wrote: »
    No it's not murder. I realise it's quite an emotive subject and respect anyone's right to have an opinion, but to label those that have abortions as murderers is way off the mark.

    Back on topic, this ad is to be aired in the UK, is there a chance that this will not even appear on our screens? It seems that some channels can throw on adverts applicable to the viewing region. If so, I wonder whey everyone seems to be getting their panties in a twist.
    It is murder. Quite simply it is unadulterated murder.
    What would I be if I took a premature baby, who was still within the legal time period for abortion(in countries were jurisdictions permit abortion) and shot it?


  • #71
    storm2811
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭storm2811


    To me,a fetus is just a ball of cells in the early stages(when a woman would be most likley to get an abortion),it cannot think untill a later stage and it's still under discussion (I think?) whether they can feel pain or not.

    If I had to make the decision to get an abortion I would try to just think of it as a ball of cells,I don't think of it as a human being imo.

    I don't mind pro-lifers having different opinions but when they go around protesting and shouting at women going into abortion clinics it's too far.

    In all fairness,it's not like they're over the moon to be getting an abortion?


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  • #72
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    diddledum wrote: »
    No it's not murder.
    I remember having a heated conversation with a French feminist colleague about this years ago. I'm anti-abortion, but I'm also atheist & Buddhist.

    I made the case that abortion was murder and she countered with the fact that the early foetus is just a collection of cells, to which I replied "well, what are we?".

    I'm not against the showing of the Marie Stopes ads per se, but I think it's important to realise with choice comes consequence, no matter what side of the fence you sit.


  • #73
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    I wouldn't be appropriate to show a full gynecological examination either. Doesn't mean it should be illegal.

    That's a cop-out surely?

    If one does not know how an abortion procedure is carried out, how can one be expected to make a reasonable choice as you claim to be advocating?


  • #74
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    rovert wrote: »
    Im loving your role as more reasoned, rational MUSSOLINI. Im glad AH doesnt allow pictures as I could MUSSOLINI spamming this thread with pictures of abortions.

    Look your argument is one you are extremely entitled to have. It is just the more unhinged parties of the pro-choice and the discourse they use which is bothersome to me.
    I wouldn't show pictures of abortions. I for one have no desire to see them. I'm not ashamed to say that they would greatly upset me. The last time I saw them they greatly upset me.


    On another note am regretting my choice of name.


  • #75
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    fearcruach wrote: »
    One part of this argument that I've never understood is how people consider abortion as a form of birth control, hence it being a problem. Abortion costs a minimum of €600 which I doubt anyone considers cost effective.

    €600 is cheaper than bringing up a child I suppose.


  • #76
    PK2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    I believe in the morning after pill





    Oh Lord, how I beleive in the morning after pill!!!!!


  • #77
    Boxoffrogs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 458 ✭✭Boxoffrogs


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    It is murder. Quite simply it is unadulterated murder.
    What would I be if I took a premature baby, who was still within the legal time period for abortion(in countries were jurisdictions permit abortion) and shot it?

    What a shocking question, how many abortions do you know of that were carried out by firing squad?
    I actually think late term abortions are awful and certainly not the norm.


  • #78
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Hey everyone, Jakkass is here.. yay!

    *Thread burns*


  • #79
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    €600 is cheaper than bringing up a child I suppose.
    But a tad more expensive than a condom, contraceptive pill or morning after pill. Or all three combined for that matter.

    In any case, as a surgical procedure, and in the latter stages of pregnancy a rather invasive procedure, I don't see why someone would choose abortion as their contraception of choice.


  • #80
    Penny Dreadful
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Penny Dreadful


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That's a cop-out surely?

    If one does not know how an abortion procedure is carried out, how can one be expected to make a reasonable choice as you claim to be advocating?

    How many people know the exact details, ins and outs of their hip replacement procedure, or removal of gaul stones or any other operation they may have? Yet somehow they make their reasonable choice to proceed without knowing exactly how the procedure is to be carried out, they trust their health care professional to know the vital details as is their job.


  • #81
    Penny Dreadful
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Penny Dreadful


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    But a tad more expensive than a condom, contraceptive pill or morning after pill. Or all three combined for that matter.

    In any case, as a surgical procedure, and in the latter stages of pregnancy a rather invasive procedure, I don't see why someone would choose abortion as their contraception of choice.

    Its not contraception though, conception has clearly taken place otherwise they wouldn't be considering a termination. There is a difference. Most people do not opt for termination lightly.


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  • #82
    xoixo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭xoixo


    I don't want to get into the abortion debate because people have such strong feelings on both sides so it just goes around in circles and nothing comes from it, other than getting pissed off (in my experiences anyway!)

    but what I do want to quickly say is to the people in this thread who have used the phrase 'pro-abortion' or 'anti-abortion'. No one is pro-abortion as a poster on the first page rightly said. We have the respect to call your argument 'pro-life' and not 'pro-*insert-some-religious-or-backward-insult-here*'. So please give us the same respect. We want the Choice.


  • #83
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    Its not contraception though, conception has clearly taken place otherwise they wouldn't be considering a termination. There is a difference. Most people do not opt for termination lightly.
    Birth control then.


  • #84
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Jakkass wrote: »
    One clearly doesn't understand what pro-life is if one is arguing this.

    The reason why people oppose abortion (by choice, rather than situations whereby it is a medical necessity) is because it is the taking of another life.

    It's not as simple as saying "Don't do it yourself", because it is a life or death issue. If one denies another the right to life, one is denying every single right along with it.

    "Hi, God of old testament, how's it going?

    Hey Abraham, you like me right?

    Yeah, I'd do anything for you bro.

    Well, I want you to sacrafice Isaac to prove it.

    :( OK then.

    Kthxbai......actually, just killl a ram instead good as TBH." - Historical Conversation.

    Satan: Betcha that Job guy would curse you if you took away his protection.

    God: Nah, he's cool, he loves me...do what you want.

    Satan: Cool....*Kills family, takes wealth and health*

    Job: Well, at least Got still loves me.


    The Bible, supposedly the pillar of moral teaching has no problem with Murder.

    Also, a foetus is basically a parasite for all intents and purposes, it can't live without the mother, therefore I don't believe a mother should be required to keep it unless the foetus is to a point where it can survive outside the womb, and then it should be given a full term birth, no early removals for survival of the foetus but not fully developed.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Abortion is the single greatest evil taking place in the World today. To those who say "if you don't want to don't do it" Well how about you apply that to other crimes? Like Murder? Its sickening. I don't know how anyone can condone abortion. And for those who say that an embryo isn't really a baby: To you I say this: you tell that to a couple who have suffered the tragedy of a miscarriage. It is nothing short of murder. It literally sickens me. Pro choice? What a joke. People shouldn't have the power to literally chose to have a baby SHREDDED. Simply pure evil.
    Sure I feel sorry for those with unplanned pregnancies or those who have been raped, but that isn't the babies fault. Murder isnt the answer.

    Abortion is not evil, what's more evil is bringing children into an already overpopulated world when you have no desire for a child.

    Abortion isn't murder in my opinion. It's not a baby, an embryo is quite literally a bunch of cells. A foetus isnt' even a baby, it's a foetus, see above for my description.

    The foetus is not shredded in most abortions, only in really late term abortions, and they are not carried out as normal procedure, only if there is a danger to the mother.


  • #85
    Penny Dreadful
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Penny Dreadful


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    Birth control then.

    :oOnly realised when posted that how pedantic it sounded. There is a difference though:)
    Anyhow, this, as with all other pro life/ pro choice debates will go round and round in circles so I'm off to bed. Last day of the working week tomorrow!:D


  • #86
    Ardennes1944
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    if you feel its the right thing for you and the foetus. do it. if not, dont. but dont try and stop others living their life the way they wish


  • #87
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    minidazzler wrote: »
    "Hi, God of old testament, how's it going?

    Hey Abraham, you like me right?

    Yeah, I'd do anything for you bro.

    Well, I want you to sacrafice Isaac to prove it.

    :( OK then.

    Kthxbai......actually, just killl a ram instead good as TBH." - Historical Conversation.

    Satan: Betcha that Job guy would curse you if you took away his protection.

    God: Nah, he's cool, he loves me...do what you want.

    Satan: Cool....*Kills family, takes wealth and health*

    Job: Well, at least Got still loves me.


    The Bible, supposedly the pillar of moral teaching has no problem with Murder.

    Also, a foetus is basically a parasite for all intents and purposes, it can't live without the mother, therefore I don't believe a mother should be required to keep it unless the foetus is to a point where it can survive outside the womb, and then it should be given a full term birth, no early removals for survival of the foetus but not fully developed.
    Who mentioned religion?


    A parasite..... do you also say that to people who have suffered from a miscarriage? "Ah its ok its only a parasite".
    Its a human life.


  • #88
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Penny Dreadful wrote: »
    How many people know the exact details, ins and outs of their hip replacement procedure, or removal of gaul stones or any other operation they may have? Yet somehow they make their reasonable choice to proceed without knowing exactly how the procedure is to be carried out, they trust their health care professional to know the vital details as is their job.

    There are a number of reasons why a hip replacement, removement of gaul stones, and so on happen to be different.

    First and foremost, is that there aren't anywhere near the same ethical and moral implications as there are in the case of abortion, concerning whether or not there is another human living inside them and growing, concerning whether or not it is really alive. If it is really alive, the question of what happens is much more important than in the case of removing gaul stones, or getting a hip replacement.

    The second difference is, that a hip replacement may well be necessary. In the vast majority of cases, bar medical emergencies which I've already allowed room for, there is another option in the case of abortion. It isn't a necessity to get one, and indeed Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to bring a child to full birth.

    I believe if one is to make a choice, and decide ethically as to whether or not there is a child inside of them, and indeed to decide what would happen to said child if it were a child to begin with, one would need to know the details before making a choice.

    There is a difference between an ethically contentious choice, and a choice which isn't ethically contentious at all.


  • #89
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    minidazzler: I'd love to discuss your strawman of Christianity in the correct forum at a later stage.
    minidazzler wrote:
    Abortion isn't murder in my opinion. It's not a baby, an embryo is quite literally a bunch of cells. A foetus isnt' even a baby, it's a foetus, see above for my description.

    In the same way that you or I could be argued to be a bunch of cells I suspect...


  • #90
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Jakkass wrote: »


    In the same way that you or I could be argued to be a bunch of cells I suspect...

    True, but we are a bunch of cells that do not depend on other people for survival.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Who mentioned religion?


    A parasite..... do you also say that to people who have suffered from a miscarriage? "Ah its ok its only a parasite".
    Its a human life.

    I mentioned it.

    And no, of course I don't say it to people who have had miscarriages, not knowingly at least, but that's because I am have a little tact. For the purposes of the CHOICE of keeping a foetus, I see it different than involuntarily losing one.


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  • #91
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    minidazzler wrote: »
    True, but we are a bunch of cells that do not depend on other people for survival.

    Many children depend on their parents for survival after they are born. It would be fallacious to suggest that because one is dependant on another that this endows the right to kill.


This discussion has been closed.
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