Nice guys, are you one? were you one?

southsiderosie · 20-05-2010 12:38PM

This thread reminds me of a famous story about JFK and women. Kennedy was young, handsome, rich and a notorious womanizer...yet at a party, he complained about all of the attention that Adlai Stevenson, a rather plain but brilliant politician who repeatedly failed as a presidential candidate, was getting from the ladies. Allegedly, a woman looked Kennedy square in the eyes and said "It's because Adlai actually likes women."

There is a big difference between liking women in a physical/sexual way, and liking women in an appreciative way, or as intellectual and social equals. That's something a lot of "bad boys" and so-called nice guys don't get.

CDfm · 20-05-2010 01:00PM

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

Go listen to Fred Durst, then youle hear Whiney.

Is he an EMO

SugarHigh · 20-05-2010 01:35PM

ash23 wrote: »

As a woman, I want a guy who will be thoughtful and considerate, respectful and loving. However I also want a man who will tell me to cop on when I'm being an ass and who will speak his mind (through a filter). Someone who will be honest and mildly challenging. Someone who will be interesting.

I've been with doormats and it's infuriating.
It starts with their inability to make a simple decision. The line "whatever you like darling" starts to grate after a while. He shouldn't have a monopoly on decisions but nor should he take a back seat in everything from where we eat to what we do to where we go on holidays.

It then becomes a test. And most girls will start to see how far they can push him before he reacts. A nice guy with backbone will not be pushed too far before he tells you to get over yourself. He gets angry, you apologise profusely and balance is restored.
A nice guy aka doormat will allow you to push and push and never react, just take it like the doormat he is and slowly but surely the girl loses any respect she had and after treating him like crap for a bit, she dumps him.

So nice guy gets bitter and decides he has to be Mr. Aggressive Arsehole in order to get a girl when all he actually needs to do is retain the niceness but build his confidence and self worth.

It works the other way too for nice girls and doormats.

I consider myself to be a very nice girl. I enjoy doing things that make other people happy. I'm there for people when needed. I will go out of my way to do a favour for someone. But by jaysus, don't cross me :mad:

Can you see how these conflict?

ash23 · 20-05-2010 01:52PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

Can you see how these conflict?

You've missed the point of my post completely. He had low self esteem and was lacking in confidence in the first place. We all have to take responsibility for what we tolerate. It's not necessarily about what the other person does to us and more about how we let them.

If a guy is a doormat he will end up with a woman who will use him for that and abuse that fact. She will use him and lose respect for him and dump him when his passiveness begins to bug her.
A man with a drip of a girlfriend will do the same.

If you don't tolerate being treated that way and get away from that person as soon as you become aware they are behaving like a diva/b@stard then you will never be the one treated like crap and then dumped.

Why people persist in accepting atrocious behaviour from their boy/girlfriends and bleat "but I loooooove him/her". They're treating you like muck! How can you love them for that???

Honestly, any man/woman who allows themselves to be walked all over has esteem and/or confidence issues.

If they improve their confidence then next time around, it won't happen to them.

Been there, have the t-shirt. I could moan that all men are cheaters and liars but I know they aren't. I also know that my ex had no respect for me and I barely had any for myself. So I worked on it and not in an angry, bitter man hater way.

Snowie · 20-05-2010 01:58PM

CDfm wrote: »

Is he an EMO

he certanly like to talk about how badly hes been treated bye women...

SugarHigh · 20-05-2010 02:02PM

ash23 wrote: »

You've missed the point of my post completely. He had low self esteem and was lacking in confidence in the first place. We all have to take responsibility for what we tolerate. It's not necessarily about what the other person does to us and more about how we let them.

If a guy is a doormat he will end up with a woman who will use him for that and abuse that fact. She will use him and lose respect for him and dump him when his passiveness begins to bug her.
A man with a drip of a girlfriend will do the same.

If you don't tolerate being treated that way and get away from that person as soon as you become aware they are behaving like a diva/b@stard then you will never be the one treated like crap and then dumped.

Why people persist in accepting atrocious behaviour from their boy/girlfriends and bleat "but I loooooove him/her". They're treating you like muck! How can you love them for that???

Honestly, any man/woman who allows themselves to be walked all over has esteem and/or confidence issues.

If they improve their confidence then next time around, it won't happen to them.

Been there, have the t-shirt. I could moan that all men are cheaters and liars but I know they aren't. I also know that my ex had no respect for me and I barely had any for myself. So I worked on it and not in an angry, bitter man hater way.

So a man who has low confidence gets into a relationship with someone who treats him like crap for some test and then dumps him and you think he will just be able to build up his confidence no problem.

ash23 · 20-05-2010 02:09PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

So women who low confidence gets into a relationship with someone who treats him like crap and then dumps him and you think he will just be able to build up his confidence no problem.

Eh?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I'm saying if a person has low confidence they should work on it before they get involved with anyone.
And if they get involved and get treated badly then they need to work on their confidence before getting into another relationship.

Basically rather than blaming all women for the fact that some girl dumped him after treating him badly, he should look at why he allowed himself to be treated badly and at what point the scales tipped in her favour. If he recognises this in himself then he can deal with it and his next relationship should be a lot better. Because he probably won't be attracted to the type of person who will treat him badly and if he does get involved with someone who behaves badly, he'll know he's worth more than putting up with that and he'll walk.

I don't think I ever said "no problem". I appreciate it's difficult to regain confidence. However it's worth it. Because imo, it will lead to a healthy, balanced relationship.
Or he can carry on as he is and become some other divas lapdog. Or become a woman hater who classes all women as manipulative cows who use you and then dump you.

Personally I went with working on my own esteem.

Nevyn · 20-05-2010 02:09PM

nkay1985 wrote: »

i've become slightly confused in the last rush of posts there so a question fror the ladies: do you, as a woman, believe that a guy can be genuinely nice but still want to get into your pants?

I'm presuming that the unanimous answer to that is yes. It doesn't have to be a ploy; a guy can be genuinely nice but if he's a hetrosexual male, there's a good chance he will be attracted to you and even greater chance of this if the two of you have a good connectoin as friends.

I don't doubt that there are guys out there who act like the nice guy with the sole intention of getting their end away but I can't imagine that they're in the majority or anything like it.

Yes but the proof of it is how they treat you after you let them know that your not interested in being in a relationship with them or shagging them.
Genuinely nice guys or gentlemen will accept the knock back and deal with it graciously and still respect you and be nice. Even if that is breaking off contact with you. Pretend nice guys at that stage usually show thier real arsehole nature.

Abi · 20-05-2010 02:23PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Which is fair enough, and kind of underlines why I reacted to Liah.
Her posts looked a lot like "women are only looking for genuinely nice guys"
And "women get turned off by fake nice guys".

If she had said "I (meaning Liah) like nice guys who are actually nice guys, and dislike fake nice guys" I would have commended her for it.

Well thats what I read from her post below, tbph.

liah wrote: »

Way to miss the point, guys :eek:

If he's being nice JUST to get her, instead of out of his own good nature, then it's a turn-off, because it's fake. Fake = lying. Lying = bad. Simple?

I've high-lighted the 'if' above here, because I think its important given your reaction to the post. You sort of went of on a sarcastic rant about women being psychics etc. Actually the rudeness of the whole post:

d'Oracle wrote: »

And all women are psychic and can read men like a book.
Give the hell over. Nothing is that simple.
More so if that was true, then the topic would never have come up.
I know guys who went through this same damn thing, and it happens mainly because what you say is just not true.

^ is what made me reply to you in the first place, and the fact that you misread her. You could have point-picked her post and asked her to explain. So far as I can see she said what you just said, only you might have worded it better.

generalisations like that i.e. all women can tell when a fella is being fake to pull and are turned off are in my opinion BS.

Could you do me a favour and out-line which part of her post claims this? I'm at a bit of a loss here.

You assumed I was making gender based generalisations when I wasn't, argument ensued.

I don't argue on the internet, I debate an issue

Pyr0 · 20-05-2010 02:40PM

Okay, I'm trying to get the jist of the whole thread here for myself. This is going on what type of "nice guy" a girl would find attractive judging by the replies made.

Being a nice guy, talking to someone because you want to bed them, clearly only interested in getting you into bed for the night = Bad (kinda obvious that one).

Nice, down to earth guy, a lot of females who call him a "close friend" in the sense that they winge and moan to him, knowing he'll listen. Pretty much being used as an emotional doormat = Bad

Nice guy, likes a girl who he knows, very quiet and doesn't make his feelings known to her in any shape or form other than vague hints here and there, moans to his guy mates about "nice guys finishing last" and 'Why does she choose the assholes" and other such defeatist comments = Bad

Being a genuinely nice guy, starting a conversation with a girl based on her looks and your interest in bedding her, discovering she has a great personality and body to boot + going with it past that initial meeting = Good.

Nice guy in the general sense, friends with a girl he's attracted to, makes it known at some point in time without being mad creepy or persistant about it, either shot down or gets in there and reacts in a sensible manner depending on the reaction = Good.

If I've completely missed the point anywhere, someone please let me know

Oh and can we please replace "nice guy" with something else ? I'm starting to hate reading or saying the word to myself now ! :pac:

d'Oracle · 20-05-2010 03:14PM

Abigayle

Debate does not extend to falsely accusing someone of going on an "all women are bitches rant", calling someone Juvenile (even if you did edit it), accusing someone of having an agenda other than a point of view or accusing someone (wrongly) of whinging and being bitter.

You more or less did your best to frame me as a bitter jerk to the forum, whether its your style or not. I didn't do any of that to you.

However I am willing to admit, that I was a little harsh.
If you really need the win that badly, will that do?

donfers · 20-05-2010 03:17PM

I was a nice guy through late teens and early twenties and in terms of relationships, I had a few at that time and they went ok although I was a bit too much inclined to put my then gf's on a pedestal.

Some of the girls are saying that fake niceness doesn't work i.e. being nice only in order to get to have sex with the lady. I believe that to be true although this thread is about genuine nice guys who also may happen to want to have sex with you girlies so it's a moot point.

One thing I have noticed since mid twenties onwards is fake bastardry generally works like a dream in terms of getting the gal. I, of course am not a b'astard as you all well know and I also know that most of you throw your eyes up in the air at all these seduction tips but but but since I've stopped putting the ladies on a pedestal I have had enormous success. This is going to sound a bit childsh but I don't really care.

Don't call too often, the odd cold dispassionate text will suffice.

Don't pay her compliments, indeed compliment yourself instead and ask her if she agrees.

Don't buy or treat her to stuff unless it's her birthday/xmas or she is genuinely out of cash.

Don't talk about any kind of future together.

Don't spend too much time with her, make sure to go off with your friends as often as you like and have a full and active life separate from her.

Do not let her take any sort of unilateral control/power, like deciding what movie to watch, what restaurant to eat in, what time to meet at, or making you go to meet her parents or meet her friends. This stuff should all be negotiated and if you don't feel like doing any of the stuff she wants then don't.

Feel free to argue or question any of her opinions or call her on anything she says that might seem hypocritical or idiotic to you....no need to shout or demean her here but just let her know that you disagree if you do genuinely disagree.

All the above are general guidelines, if the girl is any bit nice you won't need to use half of it, if she's not that nice a person but attractive then you'll just want to get you end away so again the above will enable you to do that.

Win-win guys

ash23 · 20-05-2010 03:28PM

donfers wrote: »

Don't call too often, the odd cold dispassionate text will suffice.

Don't pay her compliments, indeed compliment yourself instead and ask her if she agrees.

Don't buy or treat her to stuff unless it's her birthday/xmas or she is genuinely out of cash.

Don't talk about any kind of future together.

Don't spend too much time with her, make sure to go off with your friends as often as you like and have a full and active life separate from her.

Do not let her take any sort of unilateral control/power, like deciding what movie to watch, what restaurant to eat in, what time to meet at, or making you go to meet her parents or meet her friends. This stuff should all be negotiated and if you don't feel like doing any of the stuff she wants then don't.

Feel free to argue or question any of her opinions or call her on anything she says that might seem hypocritical or idiotic to you....no need to shout or demean her here but just let her know that you disagree if you do genuinely disagree.

A lot of these things would work on a girl with low self esteem or someone who is needy. If you want a sound girl who you can have a decent relationship with, then most of these will get you dumped and pronto.

If you just want to get laid by a girl who will turn into a needy, obsessive and clingy person, then you're on the right track!

Some are healthy, like keeping your friends and social life, voicing your opinion without demeaning her, not letting her have total control over what to see, watch etc. I'd find these traits attractive in a guy. The rest though! They border on just plain nastiness.

Carlos_Ray · 20-05-2010 03:31PM

Im in a long term relationship, so not really familiar with the current dating scene apart from withnessing my single mates in action on nights out.

One of my freinds in particular, lives by the well known theory that if you treat a girl badly, she'll want you more. I didn't pay much heed to this until I saw it in action.

My friend got talking to a girl, who decided to join our group for a late drink in a pub in town. They had kissed earlier in the night, so despite only meeting, they were acting like a couple of sorts. He was buying her drinks, sitting with his arm on her leg etc etc. The same old crap.

Anyway, he was being really nice to her and she was acting a bit disinterested/borderline rude to him. My friend ( in order to prove a point to me) told me to watch how her demeanor would change as he began to treat her differently.

He started to ignore her. Sit away from her. Even say a few smart comments to her. He started being quite rude. Within 5 mins the girl was fawning over him and started being really clingly and overly smitten.

I couldn't believe the change. He said, " Its always the same, nice guys finish last."

I know this is not the case with all girls, but its certainly a widely held belief that girls don't want nice guys!

Abi · 20-05-2010 03:48PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

You more or less did your best to frame me as a bitter jerk to the forum, whether its your style or not. I didn't do any of that to you.

I'm sorry you see it that way, but you are wrong on that count. It certainly is not my intention.

However I am willing to admit, that I was a little harsh.

Sweet

If you really need the win that badly, will that do?

Acknowledging that you were harsh = you win

d'Oracle · 20-05-2010 03:50PM

How marvellously diplomatic of you.:D

donfers · 20-05-2010 03:52PM

ash23 wrote: »

He gets angry, you apologise profusely and balance is restored.

Lol did I read that right??

Feeona · 20-05-2010 04:08PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Anyway, he was being really nice to her and she was acting a bit disinterested/borderline rude to him. My friend ( in order to prove a point to me) told me to watch how her demeanor would change as he began to treat her differently.

He started to ignore her. Sit away from her. Even say a few smart comments to her. He started being quite rude. Within 5 mins the girl was fawning over him and started being really clingly and overly smitten.

I couldn't believe the change. He said, " Its always the same, nice guys finish last."

Yeah so he might get a few girls that way, but he's pulling girls who have no belief in themselves. Maybe that's all he wants, more power to him.

If you want a successful, happy relationship with a person who's well adjusted and secure in themselves though, I think stunts like that wouldn't work. Too much hassle involved.

ash23 · 20-05-2010 04:22PM

donfers wrote: »

Lol did I read that right??

Yup. Most girls and guys have the ability to be moody feckers when they want. Sometimes we are out of line with out OHs and we take our mood out on them. Usually we know when we're over the top, especially when they tell us to take our bad mood and p1ss off.
We apologise, say we were out of line and they forgive us and we know not to take it out on them.

Or if they're a doormat they let us take it out on them, we don't apologise, they usually do, we think we were right and we continue to do it, never learning where the boundaries are.

Or maybe thats just me and I'm odd

donfers · 20-05-2010 04:31PM

ash23 wrote: »

Yup. Most girls and guys have the ability to be moody feckers when they want. Sometimes we are out of line with out OHs and we take our mood out on them. Usually we know when we're over the top, especially when they tell us to take our bad mood and p1ss off.
We apologise, say we were out of line and they forgive us and we know not to take it out on them.

Or if they're a doormat they let us take it out on them, we don't apologise, they usually do, we think we were right and we continue to do it, never learning where the boundaries are.

Or maybe thats just me and I'm odd

so basically you are recommending the occassional "shut the feck up you silly cow" approach so we're agreed then

/thread

ash23 · 20-05-2010 04:37PM

donfers wrote: »

so basically you are recommending the "shut the feck up you silly cow" approach so we're agreed then

/thread

Yup, if she's being a silly cow.

Alternatively just say "I don't have to listen to this, I'll talk to you when you're in better form". Just a thought

Tar.Aldarion · 20-05-2010 04:39PM

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Latchy · 20-05-2010 04:42PM

donfers wrote: »

Some of the girls are saying that fake niceness doesn't work i.e. being nice only in order to get to have sex with the lady. I believe that to be true although this thread is about genuine nice guys who also may happen to want to have sex with you girlies so it's a moot point.

Well so many views in thread and tricky to quote so possibly going off on a tangent here

What's the saying ' nice guys come last ' . Now that's just an old quote with only half grain of truth .

Seduction techniques work differently from person to person so if the phoney, good looking , attractive '' nice guy '' manages to achieve his objective ( get his leg over ) then the sexual chemistry ' for both ' has worked right on the night. His niceness in the cold light of day , or lack of it might go out the window afterwards

Nice Guys ( patronising term if any but probably deserved for some doormats ) Decent blokes get the girls as much as the not so nices ones , they just might have to work at and go though a harder learning curve to get there .

However this thread is also about self esteem , confidence , how to handle rejection issues as much as anything else and am reminded of the lines from the Eurythmics song 'Sweet Dreams ' Some of them want to use you, Some of them want to get used by you, Some of them want to abuse you, Some of them want to be abused

Not trying to get to technical or anything but somebody with an ego and used to having strong pulling power see's the the challange as as much part of the fun . And the chase is all part of the fun as many will find as opposed to somebody clinging onto a long dead lost cause

But even the strong get their egos bruised and with the former , he is probably going to handle any rejection worse than some nice guy who may ' hope to hit lucky '.

donfers · 20-05-2010 05:03PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

^^^
worst chat-up line ever

Tar.Aldarion · 20-05-2010 05:11PM

Works 60%of the time, all the time.

Novella · 20-05-2010 06:38PM

I cannot stand this nice guy shit. There are nice people, and there are people who are not so nice. My best friend is a guy. He's lovely, does sweet things for me all the time, my life is better with him in it. I'm so tired of hearing, "You know he just wants to sleep with you.". No, he doesn't. He doesn't want to sleep with me. It's so twisted that there are so many people who think that because a person is nice to another, it means they wanna get it on.

Nice guys are just people who are nice. Sometimes they're nice to people they'd like to take things further with, and sometimes they're nice to their granny, to the bus driver, to people they aren't attracted to.

I guess this whole thing comes from guys who play nice to get women into bed, but imo that isn't really fair because women do that as well. You can smell the BS from fake niceness though, and if you can't, you should learn or you're just gonna hurt.

As for those guys who listen to all of a girls problems, be that shoulder to cry on, but get nothing back, all I have to say is, and this may be harsh, but it's probably your own fault. That doesn't make you a nice guy, it makes you a pushover and it's not a friendship, it's just you making her feel better and getting nothing in return.

/rant!

TitoPuente · 20-05-2010 07:13PM

I have to agree with Novella. Why can't guys and girls just meet up and get along, share interests and treat each other right? These women who play games, intentionally treating men badly just to test them and see how they'll react, is pathetic. I've been on the receiving end of it myself once or twice. Needless to say, it didn't last too long. Playing cruel games or being intentionally disrespectful to a romantic partner makes you an idiot and an abusive scumbag. There even seem to be some people on here who think that this "sassy, cunning, cat-like" treatment of men to "test their temprement" is somehow acceptable. No, it's not. It means you're a scumbag. Abuse in any form is still abuse. Cop yourselves on.

G-Money · 20-05-2010 07:53PM

ash23 wrote: »

Yup. Most girls and guys have the ability to be moody feckers when they want. Sometimes we are out of line with out OHs and we take our mood out on them. Usually we know when we're over the top, especially when they tell us to take our bad mood and p1ss off.
We apologise, say we were out of line and they forgive us and we know not to take it out on them.

Or if they're a doormat they let us take it out on them, we don't apologise, they usually do, we think we were right and we continue to do it, never learning where the boundaries are.

Or maybe thats just me and I'm odd

I can kind of understand this but what I don't really get is why people have to keep pushing and pushing and cross the line and need to be told to f*** off or whatever in order to "respect" the other person and have a normal relationship with them.

It sort of reminds me of a parent having to discipline a misbehaving child, only this time it's two grown ups and you'd think they'd know better.

Kooli · 20-05-2010 10:23PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

This thread reminds me of a famous story about JFK and women. Kennedy was young, handsome, rich and a notorious womanizer...yet at a party, he complained about all of the attention that Adlai Stevenson, a rather plain but brilliant politician who repeatedly failed as a presidential candidate, was getting from the ladies. Allegedly, a woman looked Kennedy square in the eyes and said "It's because Adlai actually likes women."

There is a big difference between liking women in a physical/sexual way, and liking women in an appreciative way, or as intellectual and social equals. That's something a lot of "bad boys" and so-called nice guys don't get.

A million times yes. I think this is a HUGELY important point.

PK2008 · 20-05-2010 10:27PM

Novella wrote: »

I cannot stand this nice guy shit. There are nice people, and there are people who are not so nice. My best friend is a guy. He's lovely, does sweet things for me all the time, my life is better with him in it. I'm so tired of hearing, "You know he just wants to sleep with you.". No, he doesn't. He doesn't want to sleep with me. It's so twisted that there are so many people who think that because a person is nice to another, it means they wanna get it on.

Wait til he asks you out

Nice guys, are you one? were you one?

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