At least implement these 3 changes in Hospital Practices

Kivaro · 20-05-2010 02:29PM #1

Sorry for being a buzz-kill on AH, but this story got to me:

Porters joked as they wheeled my dead partner away

Here are the suggested changes:

keep drunken patients away from the seriously ill
training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead
free bereavement counselling nationwide

The story itself:

A WOMAN yesterday gave a harrowing account of her partner's final hours in hospital.

Well-known archivist Catriona Crowe told of her distress as she witnessed two hospital porters laughing as they took her partner, who had suffered a fatal heart attack, away on a trolley. Ms Crowe, who works at the National Archives, was recalling the death in January last year of her partner Pat O Faolain (61) -- the painter and Abbey theatre doorman.

"Pat had suffered a serious heart attack three years previously," she explained.

Mr O Faolain was taken to an accident and emergency department in Dublin after he collapsed, although he had been a patient at another hospital.

"He was brought into the critical care part of the facility, an unpleasant corridor off the main A&E. Even though I explained his heart was badly damaged, no cardiologist saw him until he was dying three hours later."

Mr O Faolain died several hours later despite attempts to resuscitate him. But as he lay dying, a drunk patient was allowed to create a disturbance along the corridor. "His behaviour seemed to amuse A&E staff and nothing was done to quieten him," she said.

Ms Crowe recalled having to sit in a small office as doctors attempted to save Mr Faolain, and after he died she felt that "everyone fled" as she was taken to see him. "No one stayed near me. It was as if the staff were ashamed of their failure to save him."

Speaking at a conference organised by the Irish Hospice Foundation, she said: "The doors of the mortuary were jammed open and we could only stay a short time with him which broke my heart."

Later she met with the two doctors who had been in charge of Mr O Faolain's care and they assured her that her partner had not suffered.

Ms Crowe has called for changes in hospital practices including keeping drunken pat- ients away from the seriously ill, training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead and free bereavement counselling nationwide.

seamus · 20-05-2010 02:42PM

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. You can't keep drunken people away from the seriously ill - everyone goes in through the same door to be treated. What they should implement is a sick person + 1 policy in waiting rooms though.

Half of the problems with drunk people occur because they rock up into the waiting room with ten drunken mates in tow, and arguments start. Scumbags treat hospitals as family days out when someone has to attend for a minor injury or a sick stomach.

If seriously ill patients were identified quickly and given a cubicle, then drunken people would be a non-issue.

I'm very sorry for this woman. But she was on TV last night and the impression I got is that she was a wealthyish woman living in a somewhat sheltered artistic lifestyle who had the unfortunate experience of having to deal with the reality of public care in an Irish hospital.

Our hospital system is a complete and utter shambles, it's not just a problem with caring for dead or dying people, the entire thing is a mess.

What I did think was good progress though was that there is now talk of "end-of-life care" for people in the Irish health system. Typically what we do is drag people in when they're dying, stick them in a bed for 6 weeks and pump them full of drugs until they eventually die anyway having not enjoyed their last few weeks alive. We're all going to die in the end. We should be sending terminally ill or low-chance survival patients home with some strong painkillers to live out their last days in the comfort of their home and family.

biko · 20-05-2010 02:46PM

seamus wrote: »

We should be sending terminally ill or low-chance survival patients home with some strong painkillers to live out their last days in the comfort of their home and family.

Definitely agree with this. Why prolong the inevitable at the end of an IV when it could be with love and care in the home for the last days.
That is, if it's ok with the patient.

General Zod · 20-05-2010 02:47PM

She appears to be taking a bit of artistic licence with regard to the behaviour of the A+E staff.

Deus Ex Machina · 20-05-2010 02:49PM

There are bigger issues than how the dead are treated, for example the amount of people who join their numbers due to poor hygiene.

mathie · 20-05-2010 02:51PM

Kivaro wrote: »

Sorry for being a buzz-kill on AH

Don't worry the buzz is only the flies around the 5hite.

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2010 03:00PM

Kivaro wrote: »

Here are the suggested changes:
keep drunken patients away from the seriously ill

training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead

free bereavement counselling nationwide

1. How, security? - where's the money going to come from?
2. again no money for this
3. again no money.

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

Kivaro · 20-05-2010 03:05PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

Okay. Did not expect that.

Let's put it this way:

How would YOU feel if YOU were witnessing them wheeling away your dead partner or family member and 'having a laugh about something'?

John Mason · 20-05-2010 03:07PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

so do undertakers - do you ever seen them laughing and joking ?

its called respect

biko · 20-05-2010 03:07PM

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

sbsquarepants · 20-05-2010 03:10PM

seamus wrote: »

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. .

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

landsleaving · 20-05-2010 03:13PM

Where in the article does it say the porters were laughing other than at some drunk, while not wheeling anything? That's hardly the same. Bit unfair on them really. Looks great as a headline though doesn't it.

I feel bad for her of course, but it's sadly the norm here, those 3 changes aren't what's necessary, more staff and better facilities are.

But then the question of money, I say we start charging the Catholic church per fcuk up and sending it to the hospitals.

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2010 03:14PM

biko wrote: »

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

this is exactly what I meant. Granted you should try avoid doing it in the "open" area of the hospital where you may be seen / overheard by relatives, but to them I'm sure its just another person.

I'm sure if it happened to me I'd be upset, depending on the circumstances. But once I look back at it I'd think exactly as above.

davyjose · 20-05-2010 03:15PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

They didn't just laugh in front of the dead body -- they laughed in front of the bereaving, hence the ability to report this.

You really think laughing in that situation is acceptable? Join the real world. would you laugh inappropriately in a meeting at work? these guys need to show a bit of professional, but also human, respect.

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2010 03:15PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

I would imagine there is a pretty high turnover of patients though. how many are dealt with in a year for example, put the figures more in context.

Cookie_Monster · 20-05-2010 03:16PM

landsleaving wrote: »

Where in the article does it say the porters were laughing.

the title perhaps

davyjose · 20-05-2010 03:19PM

biko wrote: »

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

Sorry, but i'm an adult and I have a bit of craic at work, but when the time calls for it, I act professionally. I'm not dealing with death, I'm dealing with something a hell of a lot less serious, and I still know where to draw the line. If you're condoning laughing in front of the man's grieving wife -- and that's what happened -- then that's disgusting.

landsleaving · 20-05-2010 03:21PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the title perhaps

Yes yes. Very good. But it's never mentioned again, you'd think it would be if it caused such offense.

enda1 · 20-05-2010 03:24PM

Why does everyone always want to throw "resources" (money) at the healthcare problem?

What needs to happen is a rethinking of the fundamental function of hospitals and healthcare and to manage these in a enterprise driven environment.

It is poor management and waste that is a major problem. Strong unions stifle change and the ability for us to train and hire adequate numbers of doctors.

Accountability is almost non-existent. Who, who is in the business does not now about "butcher" surgeons? Biko, I'm sure you could list off a number of surgeons working in Irish hospitals you would not let near you, your friends or families. No? I don't mean to just pick on surgeons, but it is an obvious example.

It is sadly very difficult to provide a good A&E service to a sparsely populated nation where there is such disparity in the utilisation of its resources depending on time of the week.

Perhaps some of the city centre gone under businesses could be turned into drunk tanks where drunks are brought in to sober off and from there moved to a real A&E if the need arises.

Just some thoughts, but the problem(s) should not and can not be solved with "resources".

enda1 · 20-05-2010 03:25PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the title perhaps

Titles are often written by editors/someone other than the article journalist.

Seems odd that its not in the article.

Turtyturd · 20-05-2010 03:27PM

landsleaving wrote: »

Yes yes. Very good. But it's never mentioned again, you'd think it would be if it caused such offense.

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

landsleaving · 20-05-2010 03:31PM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

Aren't we saying the same thing?

this thread is blowing my mind man.

bonerm · 20-05-2010 03:43PM

seamus wrote: »

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. You can't keep drunken people away from the seriously ill -

Yeah you can. Drunk people outside, sober people inside. Easy.

Kivaro · 20-05-2010 03:44PM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

What I have to wonder about you and your 'thankers' based on your response is the limit of your personal experiences dealing with death e.g. watching a family member/relation/good friend die in hospital. And the respect that any reasonable person should expect in those circumstances in that environment. To react to hospital employees joking while they are wheeling away your loved one is not an over-reaction; it is a human reaction.

Turtyturd · 20-05-2010 04:11PM

Kivaro wrote: »

What I have to wonder about you and your 'thankers' based on your response is the limit of your personal experiences dealing with death e.g. watching a family member/relation/good friend die in hospital. And the respect that any reasonable person should expect in those circumstances in that environment. To react to hospital employees joking while they are wheeling away your loved one is not an over-reaction; it is a human reaction.

To be fair the word woman is capitalized as a warning.:pac:

Seriously, the way it is written does seem like it has been exaggerated slightly. And the fact that she witnessed them joking doesn't mean that they were unprofessional to her in any manner.

prinz · 20-05-2010 04:16PM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Seriously, the way it is written does seem like it has been exaggerated slightly. And the fact that she witnessed them joking doesn't mean that they were unprofessional to her in any manner.

It means they were unprofessional in her presence.

landsleaving · 20-05-2010 04:37PM

prinz wrote: »

It means they were unprofessional in her presence.

The artticle (ignoring the title) says they laughed at the antics of some drunk, scarce humour in a depressing job. She's venting after something horrible happened to her, fair enough, but the title, and the focus of the article and subsequent posts, take away from the real issue, that her husband was dying and it took three hours to get him to a cardiologist.

So what if the porters laughed at a drunk, the length of time it took for her husband to be treated is the real issue here. If anything, the fact that the doctors 'fled' after he died is indicative more of the lack of staff to stay with her, they probably were too busy.
Is this not what we should be talking about? It's certainly what would bother me in that situation. But I will admit were I in her situation, I would similarly vent my frustrations at any possible recipient, but with the logic afforded by not being there, it seems that the real villain is the healthcare system which failed to assist her and her husband when it was most needed.

prinz · 20-05-2010 04:43PM

landsleaving wrote: »

Is this not what we should be talking about? It's certainly what would bother me in that situation. But I will admit were I in her situation, I would similarly vent my frustrations at any possible recipient, but with the logic afforded by not being there, it seems that the real villain is the healthcare system which failed to assist her and her husband when it was most needed.

You're right the whole situation leaves a lot to be desired.

My post was aimed primarily towards people who wouldn't see the issue with staff joking and laughing, even in a hypothetical situation leaving this case aside, around grieving next of kin. It's completely inappropriate and unprofessional behaviour.

sbsquarepants · 20-05-2010 04:53PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would imagine there is a pretty high turnover of patients though. how many are dealt with in a year for example, put the figures more in context.

Doesn't really put it in any more context. Hotels, for example, have a high turnover of guests, but there is no way there is any hotel in the world running with a staff to guest ratio like that!
There are simply too many people in the system being paid to do very little

Paddy Samurai · 20-05-2010 04:56PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

That would be about normal.The 900 patients are probably inpatients and don't include outpatient clinics,a/e patients not taken in etc,etc.
There could be many staff involved with a single patients treatment/ stay.It could involve doctors,nurses,lab staff, xray staff, catering ,portering , physios ,occupational therapists, social workers etc,etc. Add to that the different shifts ,as its 24/7 cover for patients.

genericguy · 20-05-2010 05:05PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

the problem with the HSE is that of those 3500 staff, 3450 are more than likely managers.

if it were doctors and nurses that made up the bulk of staff instead of bleedin' pen-pushers it'd be fine.

also, regarding the number of drunkards in the A&E in particular, Harney's too busy whinging about the 3/4 people nationwide on a given weekend who've supposedly OD'd on headshop products to be concerned about the 50-70%* of all patients who are they cos they drank 8 too many vodka and red bulls.

Anecdotal statistic supplied by a former colleague who is a surgeon.

At least implement these 3 changes in Hospital Practices

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