At least implement these 3 changes in Hospital Practices

Kivaro

Sorry for being a buzz-kill on AH, but this story got to me:

Porters joked as they wheeled my dead partner away

Here are the suggested changes:

• keep drunken patients away from the seriously ill
• training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead
• free bereavement counselling nationwide

The story itself:

A WOMAN yesterday gave a harrowing account of her partner's final hours in hospital.

Well-known archivist Catriona Crowe told of her distress as she witnessed two hospital porters laughing as they took her partner, who had suffered a fatal heart attack, away on a trolley. Ms Crowe, who works at the National Archives, was recalling the death in January last year of her partner Pat O Faolain (61) -- the painter and Abbey theatre doorman.

"Pat had suffered a serious heart attack three years previously," she explained.

Mr O Faolain was taken to an accident and emergency department in Dublin after he collapsed, although he had been a patient at another hospital.

"He was brought into the critical care part of the facility, an unpleasant corridor off the main A&E. Even though I explained his heart was badly damaged, no cardiologist saw him until he was dying three hours later."

Mr O Faolain died several hours later despite attempts to resuscitate him. But as he lay dying, a drunk patient was allowed to create a disturbance along the corridor. "His behaviour seemed to amuse A&E staff and nothing was done to quieten him," she said.

Ms Crowe recalled having to sit in a small office as doctors attempted to save Mr Faolain, and after he died she felt that "everyone fled" as she was taken to see him. "No one stayed near me. It was as if the staff were ashamed of their failure to save him."

Speaking at a conference organised by the Irish Hospice Foundation, she said: "The doors of the mortuary were jammed open and we could only stay a short time with him which broke my heart."

Later she met with the two doctors who had been in charge of Mr O Faolain's care and they assured her that her partner had not suffered.

Ms Crowe has called for changes in hospital practices including keeping drunken pat- ients away from the seriously ill, training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead and free bereavement counselling nationwide.

seamus

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. You can't keep drunken people away from the seriously ill - everyone goes in through the same door to be treated. What they should implement is a sick person + 1 policy in waiting rooms though.

Half of the problems with drunk people occur because they rock up into the waiting room with ten drunken mates in tow, and arguments start. Scumbags treat hospitals as family days out when someone has to attend for a minor injury or a sick stomach.

If seriously ill patients were identified quickly and given a cubicle, then drunken people would be a non-issue.

I'm very sorry for this woman. But she was on TV last night and the impression I got is that she was a wealthyish woman living in a somewhat sheltered artistic lifestyle who had the unfortunate experience of having to deal with the reality of public care in an Irish hospital.

Our hospital system is a complete and utter shambles, it's not just a problem with caring for dead or dying people, the entire thing is a mess.

What I did think was good progress though was that there is now talk of "end-of-life care" for people in the Irish health system. Typically what we do is drag people in when they're dying, stick them in a bed for 6 weeks and pump them full of drugs until they eventually die anyway having not enjoyed their last few weeks alive. We're all going to die in the end. We should be sending terminally ill or low-chance survival patients home with some strong painkillers to live out their last days in the comfort of their home and family.

biko

seamus wrote: »

We should be sending terminally ill or low-chance survival patients home with some strong painkillers to live out their last days in the comfort of their home and family.

Definitely agree with this. Why prolong the inevitable at the end of an IV when it could be with love and care in the home for the last days.
That is, if it's ok with the patient.

General Zod

She appears to be taking a bit of artistic licence with regard to the behaviour of the A+E staff.

Deus Ex Machina

There are bigger issues than how the dead are treated, for example the amount of people who join their numbers due to poor hygiene.

mathie

Kivaro wrote: »

Sorry for being a buzz-kill on AH

Don't worry the buzz is only the flies around the 5hite.

Cookie_Monster

Kivaro wrote: »

Here are the suggested changes:

• keep drunken patients away from the seriously ill
• training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead
• free bereavement counselling nationwide

1. How, security? - where's the money going to come from?
2. again no money for this
3. again no money.

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

Kivaro

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

Okay. Did not expect that.

Let's put it this way:

How would YOU feel if YOU were witnessing them wheeling away your dead partner or family member and 'having a laugh about something'?

John Mason

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

so do undertakers - do you ever seen them laughing and joking ?

its called respect

biko

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

sbsquarepants

seamus wrote: »

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. .

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

landsleaving

Where in the article does it say the porters were laughing other than at some drunk, while not wheeling anything? That's hardly the same. Bit unfair on them really. Looks great as a headline though doesn't it.

I feel bad for her of course, but it's sadly the norm here, those 3 changes aren't what's necessary, more staff and better facilities are.

But then the question of money, I say we start charging the Catholic church per fcuk up and sending it to the hospitals.

Cookie_Monster

biko wrote: »

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

this is exactly what I meant. Granted you should try avoid doing it in the "open" area of the hospital where you may be seen / overheard by relatives, but to them I'm sure its just another person.

I'm sure if it happened to me I'd be upset, depending on the circumstances. But once I look back at it I'd think exactly as above.

davyjose

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't see the big deal about the porters laughing either. They probably deal with bodies every day, its just part of the job. Just because they have a body does not mean they can't chat to each other and laugh about something.

They didn't just laugh in front of the dead body -- they laughed in front of the bereaving, hence the ability to report this.

You really think laughing in that situation is acceptable? Join the real world. would you laugh inappropriately in a meeting at work? these guys need to show a bit of professional, but also human, respect.

Cookie_Monster

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

I would imagine there is a pretty high turnover of patients though. how many are dealt with in a year for example, put the figures more in context.

Cookie_Monster

landsleaving wrote: »

Where in the article does it say the porters were laughing.

the title perhaps

davyjose

biko wrote: »

I used to work in a hospital, in the ICU. It may seem careless (and it is) but when your dear husband, wife, uncle, ..., dies it's just another person to us- maybe the third that day.
It's crass but when you deal with death all the time you do speak about other stuff when tending to patients, you do laugh at work mates jokes when rolling bodies away, you do tend to think of a patient as their disease/affliction instead of by their name (particularly when they're in your care for less than a day).

Sorry, but i'm an adult and I have a bit of craic at work, but when the time calls for it, I act professionally. I'm not dealing with death, I'm dealing with something a hell of a lot less serious, and I still know where to draw the line. If you're condoning laughing in front of the man's grieving wife -- and that's what happened -- then that's disgusting.

landsleaving

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the title perhaps

Yes yes. Very good. But it's never mentioned again, you'd think it would be if it caused such offense.

enda1

Why does everyone always want to throw "resources" (money) at the healthcare problem?

What needs to happen is a rethinking of the fundamental function of hospitals and healthcare and to manage these in a enterprise driven environment.

It is poor management and waste that is a major problem. Strong unions stifle change and the ability for us to train and hire adequate numbers of doctors.

Accountability is almost non-existent. Who, who is in the business does not now about "butcher" surgeons? Biko, I'm sure you could list off a number of surgeons working in Irish hospitals you would not let near you, your friends or families. No? I don't mean to just pick on surgeons, but it is an obvious example.

It is sadly very difficult to provide a good A&E service to a sparsely populated nation where there is such disparity in the utilisation of its resources depending on time of the week.

Perhaps some of the city centre gone under businesses could be turned into drunk tanks where drunks are brought in to sober off and from there moved to a real A&E if the need arises.

Just some thoughts, but the problem(s) should not and can not be solved with "resources".

enda1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the title perhaps

Titles are often written by editors/someone other than the article journalist.

Seems odd that its not in the article.

Turtyturd

landsleaving wrote: »

Yes yes. Very good. But it's never mentioned again, you'd think it would be if it caused such offense.

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

landsleaving

Turtyturd wrote: »

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

Aren't we saying the same thing?

this thread is blowing my mind man.

bonerm

seamus wrote: »

Effectively it's all down to the lack of resources. You can't keep drunken people away from the seriously ill -

Yeah you can. Drunk people outside, sober people inside. Easy.

Kivaro

Turtyturd wrote: »

Breaking News: Emotional woman over reacts. Shocker.

What I have to wonder about you and your 'thankers' based on your response is the limit of your personal experiences dealing with death e.g. watching a family member/relation/good friend die in hospital. And the respect that any reasonable person should expect in those circumstances in that environment. To react to hospital employees joking while they are wheeling away your loved one is not an over-reaction; it is a human reaction.

Turtyturd

Kivaro wrote: »

What I have to wonder about you and your 'thankers' based on your response is the limit of your personal experiences dealing with death e.g. watching a family member/relation/good friend die in hospital. And the respect that any reasonable person should expect in those circumstances in that environment. To react to hospital employees joking while they are wheeling away your loved one is not an over-reaction; it is a human reaction.

To be fair the word woman is capitalized as a warning.:pac:

Seriously, the way it is written does seem like it has been exaggerated slightly. And the fact that she witnessed them joking doesn't mean that they were unprofessional to her in any manner.

prinz

Turtyturd wrote: »

Seriously, the way it is written does seem like it has been exaggerated slightly. And the fact that she witnessed them joking doesn't mean that they were unprofessional to her in any manner.

It means they were unprofessional in her presence.

landsleaving

prinz wrote: »

It means they were unprofessional in her presence.

The artticle (ignoring the title) says they laughed at the antics of some drunk, scarce humour in a depressing job. She's venting after something horrible happened to her, fair enough, but the title, and the focus of the article and subsequent posts, take away from the real issue, that her husband was dying and it took three hours to get him to a cardiologist.

So what if the porters laughed at a drunk, the length of time it took for her husband to be treated is the real issue here. If anything, the fact that the doctors 'fled' after he died is indicative more of the lack of staff to stay with her, they probably were too busy.
Is this not what we should be talking about? It's certainly what would bother me in that situation. But I will admit were I in her situation, I would similarly vent my frustrations at any possible recipient, but with the logic afforded by not being there, it seems that the real villain is the healthcare system which failed to assist her and her husband when it was most needed.

prinz

landsleaving wrote: »

Is this not what we should be talking about? It's certainly what would bother me in that situation. But I will admit were I in her situation, I would similarly vent my frustrations at any possible recipient, but with the logic afforded by not being there, it seems that the real villain is the healthcare system which failed to assist her and her husband when it was most needed.

You're right the whole situation leaves a lot to be desired.

My post was aimed primarily towards people who wouldn't see the issue with staff joking and laughing, even in a hypothetical situation leaving this case aside, around grieving next of kin. It's completely inappropriate and unprofessional behaviour.

sbsquarepants

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would imagine there is a pretty high turnover of patients though. how many are dealt with in a year for example, put the figures more in context.

Doesn't really put it in any more context. Hotels, for example, have a high turnover of guests, but there is no way there is any hotel in the world running with a staff to guest ratio like that!
There are simply too many people in the system being paid to do very little

Paddy Samurai

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

That would be about normal.The 900 patients are probably inpatients and don't include outpatient clinics,a/e patients not taken in etc,etc.
There could be many staff involved with a single patients treatment/ stay.It could involve doctors,nurses,lab staff, xray staff, catering ,portering , physios ,occupational therapists, social workers etc,etc. Add to that the different shifts ,as its 24/7 cover for patients.

genericguy

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

the problem with the HSE is that of those 3500 staff, 3450 are more than likely managers.

if it were doctors and nurses that made up the bulk of staff instead of bleedin' pen-pushers it'd be fine.

also, regarding the number of drunkards in the A&E in particular, Harney's too busy whinging about the 3/4 people nationwide on a given weekend who've supposedly OD'd on headshop products to be concerned about the 50-70%* of all patients who are they cos they drank 8 too many vodka and red bulls.

Anecdotal statistic supplied by a former colleague who is a surgeon.

Stinicker

Only one change needs to be made to Healthcare in Ireland.

Privatise it and end all involvement by the state in the healthcare of citizens. Let market forces decide how to treat people and let proper competition develop in the private insurance market. Transfer every single public and civil servent working for the Department of Health and HSE to a private company with them losing their jobs for life title. Make them work properly in the private and let it cut the fat that is destroying the HSE. The HSE must be ran as a business with efficiency. Abolish PRSI upon Privatisation.

bonerm

Stinicker wrote: »

Only one change needs to be made to Healthcare in Ireland.

Privatise it and end all involvement by the state in the healthcare of citizens. Let market forces decide how to treat people and let proper competition develop in the private insurance market. Transfer every single public and civil servent working for the Department of Health and HSE to a private company with them losing their jobs for life title. Make them work properly in the private and let it cut the fat that is destroying the HSE. The HSE must be ran as a business with efficiency. Abolish PRSI upon Privatisation.

Go live in America if that's what you want. Grand if you have the money. TS if you don't.

I loathe most human life (and the inconvenience they cause) as much as the next misanthrope but I still feel we should be taking care of ALL people, in the best way we can. Private health care won't do that.

Paddy Samurai

Stinicker wrote: »

Only one change needs to be made to Healthcare in Ireland.

Privatise it and end all involvement by the state in the healthcare of citizens. Let market forces decide how to treat people and let proper competition develop in the private insurance market. Transfer every single public and civil servent working for the Department of Health and HSE to a private company with them losing their jobs for life title. Make them work properly in the private and let it cut the fat that is destroying the HSE. The HSE must be ran as a business with efficiency. Abolish PRSI upon Privatisation.

I agree changes need to be made,but the only thing private healthcare is interested in ..............is profit for shareholders not patients health.You can't pay you die.

opinion guy

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I know a girl who works in tallaght hospital as a nurses aide. She told me recently there are 3500 staff for under 900 patients! Whatever it is, it's not a lack of resources.

This kind of ignorance annoys me. Well done you. You based your entire opinion on resources in health care based on one persons figures. First point - resources means more than just people. It means equipment, infrastructure and more also. Second point. 3500 people. Ok how many are admin staff - that not just management thats also secretaries etc who are very necessary. How many are lab staff ? Some staff will be on night shift/day shift etc. Porters, security, radiographers, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, nutritionists. Oh yes and care assistants.
Out of your 3500 maybe 100 are docs, maybe 500 are nurses. (If anyone knows figures do tell)

And these are supposed to be enough look after 900 patients, some of whom need constant 1 to 1 care ???? Hell no.

stepbar

I've had the pleasure of having to get blood taken in the last few weeks (Mater hospital).

Imagine, you can only get blood taken between 8am and 3.45pm but yet the "outsourced" appointment line is open from 8am to 8pm :rolleyes:

Most out patient clinics are open until 4-5pm. If you need to get blood taken well tough. Come back tomorrow :rolleyes:

People working are told "Come in at 10am" :rolleyes: I want to come in before work starts, in fact I should be able to get blood taken 8pm in the evening if needed.

My second blood sample "wasn't" on the system but yet I made a few phone calls the next day and it turned up on another system :rolleyes:

That's just the system for taking blood.... Can you imagine how fcuked up the rest of the system is?

Stinicker

Having previously had the misfortune to spend a night in (public) hospital after an elective procedure I can tell you that the entire public system was a disaster. I then had to repeat for follow ups and if you have an appointment time of say 2.30pm then you will need to be there at say between 1.00pm to 1.30pm as no matter what you do you have to wait a minimum of an hour. What sort of a disastrous time scheduling is that.

The HSE is rotten to the core and the only thing stopping Ireland having a proper decent healthcare system is political ideologies (Leftwing Marxist Trade Unionists) who would rather every single patient suffer than cut jobs and cut wages to have a proper system.

The Government should have no say in Healthcare and it truly is a fool who would trust the Government with the most important thing their health! These fools can't balance a budget or a run a country and people put blind faith in them to run a health system when all we have is a mess of government bureaucracy run by civil servants to suit their own agenda.

sbsquarepants

opinion guy wrote: »

This kind of ignorance annoys me. Well done you. You based your entire opinion on resources in health care based on one persons figures. First point - resources means more than just people. It means equipment, infrastructure and more also. Second point. 3500 people. Ok how many are admin staff - that not just management thats also secretaries etc who are very necessary. How many are lab staff ? Some staff will be on night shift/day shift etc. Porters, security, radiographers, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, nutritionists. Oh yes and care assistants.
Out of your 3500 maybe 100 are docs, maybe 500 are nurses. (If anyone knows figures do tell)

And these are supposed to be enough look after 900 patients, some of whom need constant 1 to 1 care ???? Hell no.

Calm down!
I agree with you, there are way too many admin staff and possibly not enough doctors and nurses. But the fact remains the problem with the health service is not lack of resources, it is blatant waste and misuse of the resources available.
However based on your figures, i would imagine a team of 100 doctors and 500 nurses, working shifts should be capable of tending to under 900 patients!!
In reality quite few patients require round the clock 1 to 1 care.

Stench Blossoms

The porters weren't laughing at her, or about her, or her husband they were talking between themselves.

I hate this whole 'oh you have to be respectful' attitude.

These people deal with dead people everyday, if they didn't act 'normal' I'd be more concerned.

If they had, you know, started moving the dead guys arms so it looked like he was waving good bye to his wife well THEN there'd be a problem.

Cookie_Monster

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

If they had, you know, started moving the dead guys arms so it looked like he was waving good bye to his wife

:pac::pac::pac:

so wrong but hilarious none the less

seamus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Calm down!
I agree with you, there are way too many admin staff and possibly not enough doctors and nurses. But the fact remains the problem with the health service is not lack of resources, it is blatant waste and misuse of the resources available.
However based on your figures, i would imagine a team of 100 doctors and 500 nurses, working shifts should be capable of tending to under 900 patients!!
In reality quite few patients require round the clock 1 to 1 care.

In fact, we have a higher nurse : patient ratio than many EU countries who'd be considered to have the best healthcare.

As you point out, the issue is not a lack of resources. It's poor management of them. Somehow we manage to have loads of nurses, but not enough beds for patients. I'm sure we could handle having too few nurses if everyone got a bed. The HSE themselves are a complete joke. The man at the top is a qualified medical consultant who has no idea how to run any kind of organisation and can only see it from a consultant's point of view - i.e. a point-of-view where the only important thing is how much you're paid and how your peers perceive you.

Wiki actually says it best, the HSE is "an inefficient, top-heavy, bloated and excessively bureaucratic organisation defined by cronyism, budget overruns and an excessively "manager-oriented" culture where middle management and consultants' demands are prioritised over adequate service provision"

There's a well-known story of when Mary Harney went to visit Tallaght Hospital one morning. The night before, it was a typical day in tallaght - trollies everywhere, sick people sitting in corridors. On the day Harney was due to visit, the HSE swooped in, and magically there was space to put patients in and nobody left sitting in the corridor.

Prof. Drumm needs to be sacked and replaced with someone who has a clue. A businessman is what you need - Feargal Quinn or such - someone who understands that the most important part of any organisation is your front-line staff.

prinz

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

The porters weren't laughing at her, or about her, or her husband they were talking between themselves.
I hate this whole 'oh you have to be respectful' attitude.
These people deal with dead people everyday, if they didn't act 'normal' I'd be more concerned.

I deal with companies often times companies in difficulty. I sometimes have to visit workplaces where the company is in trouble and the staff know that their jobs are on the line. It would be extremely insensitive and unprofessional if I and my colleagues were to walk around a companies offices having a joke and a laugh, knowing that the staff had just been told their jobs were gone. Time and a place ffs.

Stench Blossoms

prinz wrote: »

I deal with companies often times companies in difficulty. I sometimes have to visit workplaces where the company is in trouble and the staff know that their jobs are on the line. It would be extremely insensitive and unprofessional if I and my colleagues were to walk around a companies offices having a joke and a laugh, knowing that the staff had just been told their jobs were gone. Time and a place ffs.

We'll have to agree to disagree because if I had just lost my job and saw someone else laughing, unless they were laughing AT me I wouldn't give a crap.

I know anytime someone close to me has died I haven't cared about the actions of the people around me.

Dr. No

Only one change needs to be made to Healthcare in Ireland.

Privatise it and end all involvement by the state in the healthcare of citizens. Let market forces decide how to treat people and let proper competition develop in the private insurance market. Transfer every single public and civil servent working for the Department of Health and HSE to a private company with them losing their jobs for life title. Make them work properly in the private and let it cut the fat that is destroying the HSE. The HSE must be ran as a business with efficiency. Abolish PRSI upon Privatisation.

I don't agree. Letting the same market forces that caused the recession run the healthcare system I don't think so.

El Siglo

genericguy wrote:

• keep drunken patients away from the seriously ill
• training for staff on how to behave in the presence of the dead
• free bereavement counselling nationwide

• Drunk patients, send them to the Garda station. Let them spend a night in a cell.
• Training for staff on how to behave? Very simple, when you see a dead body and grieving widow, shut the fuck up, don't laugh, think of dead rancid puppies and do your fucking job you retarded fuck.
• Bereavement counselling nationwide? Like any novel idea that comes along nowadays as I see it, if it wasn't implemented during the good times it won't be implemented now. Not that it's a bad idea, it's just a lack of money for it, obviously the government have money for other more pressing matters...:rolleyes:

Terrible story, but it's only when a slightly famous rich person encounters such shit that it becomes a matter for concern. It wasn't her concern or the higher-ups concerns when it was the rest of us plebs facing such problems.

Cookie_Monster

El Siglo wrote: »

Drunk patients, send them to the Garda station. Let them spend a night in a cell.

hardly practical if they're bleeding out all over the floor though is it?

El Siglo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hardly practical if they're bleeding out all over the floor though is it?

My answer to that...;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8JA9Qs2Mho