Psychoactive reaction to Product sold in 'pub shop'

PunkFreud · 13-05-2010 03:05PM

I'd just like to add, that those who shout loudest in this society tend to get what they want.

13-05-2010 03:08PM

Dudess wrote: »

The point people are making though is that alcohol is no less capable of being dodgy just because of being legal. Alcohol, when abused, is a devastating substance, but it doesn't get the better of most people thankfully. The same can be said about drugs.

Alcohol is however a well controlled and regulated substance. You drink a beer or a spirit you know what your drinking. Also it effects are well understood and in general people know how much to drink and what will happen if they drink too much.

With the legal highs they are basically just churning out whatever they can to replace what was made illegal the week before. They are not tested for long or short term effects, how people will react etc etc. In short you really have no idea what you are getting. Illegal drugs are better understood than the recent legal ones.

Maybe I came across a bit harsh in my previous posts and in reality its up to people to take what they want.

rubadub · 13-05-2010 03:16PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

I will never understand people wanting crap from a head shop when they can just drink instead.

What a ridiculous statment.

I will never understand people watching rugby when they can just watch soccer instead.
I will never understand people eating burgers when they can just eat sausages instead.
I will never understand people riding doggy style when they can just do the missionary position instead.

I said in another thread-
People have "appetites" for different things, be it food, sex or experiencing altered states of consciousness. People can have varying degrees of such things, some end up overweight, oversexed, junkies/alcos. I know thin people with low appetites who do not like eating particularly much, but they can certainly accept the concept that others do fully enjoy it and can overindulge, some might moan about it but I have never heard them saying that nobody could enjoy food. I expect a celibate nun could accept people enjoy sex though she may have little or no sex drive.

Many people have a deep rooted fear of altered states of consciousness, some religions would have it drilled into you and you just grow up thinking it is normal, I have only met one guy who I knew never drank (could know others who never said it), he was utterly scared of losing control under any intoxicant, he fully accepted that others liked it and never preached to anybody though.

Of course some people will overindulge. Just like many do any substances, not just drugs. If everything with the potential for abuse was illegal supermarkets would be bare.

Some argue that "alcohol is bad enough, we do not need another drug", but people could pick the safer alternative, it is not like they take full doses of every drug. You would not go out and drink your usual 8 pints, 500mcg LSD, 5g mushrooms, 2g cannabis, 200mg mdma etc, just because you can.

It is equivalent to saying mcdonalds should not be allowed introduce a lower fat burger, because what is on the menu is already bad enough, and instead of opting for the lower fat option people will simply eat their usual big mac meal AND the new low fat burger on top of it.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 03:20PM

rubadub wrote: »

I will never understand people riding doggy style when they can just do the missionary position instead.*

* warning, selective editing can make people seem prudish.

TPD · 13-05-2010 03:24PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

Alcohol is however a well controlled and regulated substance. You drink a beer or a spirit you know what your drinking. Also it effects are well understood and in general people know how much to drink and what will happen if they drink too much.

With the legal highs they are basically just churning out whatever they can to replace what was made illegal the week before. They are not tested for long or short term effects, how people will react etc etc. In short you really have no idea what you are getting. Illegal drugs are better understood than the recent legal ones.

Maybe I came across a bit harsh in my previous posts and in reality its up to people to take what they want.

Legalise real drugs, many of which have been in use thousands of years, because their effects and risks are well known. Good plan Nox!

(Control/Regulation of 'real' drugs will also improve their safety.. Many arguments on the dangers fall away by legalising)

13-05-2010 03:30PM

TPD wrote: »

Legalise real drugs, many of which have been in use thousands of years, because their effects and risks are well known. Good plan Nox!

I never said real drugs should be legalised I was merely making the point that there effects are at least know as opposed to some of the new substances coming along. Personally I would look on legal highs as being in the same bracket as illegal drugs as opposed to comparing them with alcohol.

delop · 13-05-2010 03:38PM

I dont know how many people used to frequent theses Head shops, but I got a ham sandwich one day, ( I know Luella Shaggy Family Chicken would have been better) and sat outside a church on Thomas st just up the road from the Buzz Shop, you know the spot, its across the road where that fella Robert Emmet was shot, the fella who was fighting for... what was it again.... anyway I watched the headshop and was amazed by the selection and number of people who when in, well dressed, tracksuit brigade , the Old and even my Boss ( he didnt see me :-) )

I was thinking about that day yesterday, and I wondered were these Head Shops tranquilizing a section of the public? Will those people who think the new law banning this stuff which was rushed, with no debate, and dictated by the Gov, will they now see the Government as irrelevant to their dreams and desires and does not represent them.

Will they now in their sobriety , read the paper for the first time in months and think WTF, take to the streets and demand an election...

I wonder.....

questioner · 13-05-2010 03:41PM

rubadub wrote: »

What a ridiculous statment.
people will simply eat their usual big mac meal AND the new low fat burger on top of it.

TBH thats exactly what i'd do.

Eurosave cheeseburger for the win!

sceptre · 13-05-2010 03:49PM

delop wrote: »

Will they now in their sobriety , read the paper for the first time in months and think WTF, take to the streets and demand an election...

I wonder.....

I'd be happy enough if more people just read.

dsmythy · 13-05-2010 03:52PM

I'm pretty sure one alcoholic beverage does not equal one 'pill' of some kind.

Dudess · 13-05-2010 03:53PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

Alcohol is however a well controlled and regulated substance. You drink a beer or a spirit you know what your drinking. Also it effects are well understood and in general people know how much to drink and what will happen if they drink too much.

With the legal highs they are basically just churning out whatever they can to replace what was made illegal the week before. They are not tested for long or short term effects, how people will react etc etc. In short you really have no idea what you are getting. Illegal drugs are better understood than the recent legal ones.

That's going to be far more the case though with everything being driven underground now.

Maybe I came across a bit harsh in my previous posts and in reality its up to people to take what they want.

Fair enough.

Cheap Thrills! · 13-05-2010 03:53PM

delop wrote: »

I dont know how many people used to frequent theses Head shops, but I got a ham sandwich one day, ( I know Luella Shaggy Family Chicken would have been better) and sat outside a church on Thomas st just up the road from the Buzz Shop, you know the spot, its across the road where that fella Robert Emmet was shot, the fella who was fighting for... what was it again.... anyway I watched the headshop and was amazed by the selection and number of people who when in, well dressed, tracksuit brigade , the Old and even my Boss ( he didnt see me :-) )

I was thinking about that day yesterday, and I wondered were these Head Shops tranquilizing a section of the public? Will those people who think the new law banning this stuff which was rushed, with no debate, and dictated by the Gov, will they now see the Government as irrelevant to their dreams and desires and does not represent them.

Will they now in their sobriety , read the paper for the first time in months and think WTF, take to the streets and demand an election...

I wonder.....

I was actually thinking that myself.

It would be cosmic justice if the masses (formerly docile and otherwise engaged gobbling legal highs) rise up and in their sobriety allow themselves to realise what a pathetic state of affairs we have allowed to carry on....

I can see a lot more people having time on their hands and being really angry by this final Government imposed ignominy that real nasty, grass roots insurrection begins....

At least I hope so.

Every cloud has a silver lining.

Dudess · 13-05-2010 03:55PM

dsmythy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure one alcoholic beverage does not equal one 'pill' of some kind.

Well no, but overwhelming chances are, on a long night out, a person won't just stick with one alcoholic beverage, they'll consume a few - or several, whereas one pill can suffice for a whole night.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 03:59PM

There is an overwhelming fault in the line of argument that seeks to justify the existence of headshops by arguing that alcohol is legal. As many of the preceding posts have pointed out, alcohol is a dangerous substance in itself.

Perhaps it would be better to find a different line of argument, thus cutting off man of the thus far raised comebacks?

dsmythy · 13-05-2010 04:02PM

Dudess wrote: »

Well no, but overwhelming chances are, on a long night out, a person won't just stick with one alcoholic beverage, they'll consume a few - or several, whereas one pill can suffice for a whole night.

I was just referencing the strengths of different products with regards the whole 'but alcohol does more damage' debate. Some people can't take one pill without a reaction that puts them in additional danger. All people outside those with physical health problems can have one pint and be perfectly grand.

Cheap Thrills! · 13-05-2010 04:04PM

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

There is an overwhelming fault in the line of argument that seeks to justify the existence of headshops by arguing that alcohol is legal. As many of the preceding posts have pointed out, alcohol is a dangerous substance in itself.

Perhaps it would be better to find a different line of argument, thus cutting off man of the thus far raised comebacks?

Heres one for you.

We are adults, we want to take drugs.

I am a better judge than some obese, unknowledgable hick in the Dail to decide what I do with my body.

End of.

sponsoredwalk · 13-05-2010 04:06PM

That’s what I hate about the war on drugs. All day long we see those commercials:

“Here’s your brain, here’s your brain on drugs”

“Just Say No”

“Why do you think they call it dope?”

… And then the next commercial is [singing]

“This Bud’s for yooouuuu.”

C’mon, everybody, let’s be hypocritical bastards.

It’s okay to drink your drug. We meant those other drugs. Those untaxed drugs. Those are the ones that are bad for you.

--Bill Hicks

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 04:09PM

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Heres one for you.

We are adults, we want to take drugs.

I am a better judge than some obese, unknowledgable hick in the Dail to decide what I do with my body.

End of.

That's better.

jackal · 13-05-2010 04:38PM

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

I am a better judge than some obese, unknowledgable hick in the Dail to decide what I do with my body.

End of.

And with the stuff in headshops, you are getting some untested, unregulated, unknown substance produced by a possibly obese, possibly unqualified, possibly unclean and unhinged hick in a "plant food" factory somewhere.

Unless, you know, you get out your mass spectrometer...:cool:

rubadub · 13-05-2010 04:59PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

I can say for my group of about 20 friends I go out with regularly that drink is all any of are interested in.

Perhaps they keep their drug use quiet around you, if I knew you I probably would with the way you go on. I have mates who would not tell certain other mates they are on anything, they would be sitting in the pub on a half a E or after having a sneaky joint outside and not mention it to certain people, who like yourself have illogically hypocritical views on recreational drugs -so rather than suffer a mindless telling off or listen to their "concerns" they just don't tell them. It always reminds me of Begbie in trainspotting, pissed off his face saying "ye would'anee catch me poisioning me body with that sh!te"

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

Also the packed pubs and clubs rather than empty head shops would indicate drinking is much more popular.

Eh, people do not hang out taking drugs in headshops, just like you don't see people sitting around drinking in offies, or eating food in supermarkets - your logic is bizarre. Many people in those pubs & clubs are taking other recreational drugs besides booze.

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

Drinking is also a social thing to do, sit around a table in the pub having the craic. You cant sit in a pub with a table full of head shop produce.

Ever hear of dutch coffeeshops? that would be the equivalent, over here we have people in regular cafes enjoying another recreational psychoactive -coffee.

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

There is an overwhelming fault in the line of argument that seeks to justify the existence of headshops by arguing that alcohol is legal. As many of the preceding posts have pointed out, alcohol is a dangerous substance in itself.

What I object to is the hypocrisy of the law. Alcohol is extremely dangerous yet most of the anti-legal high brigade have no problem with it. These people and the law itself is hypocritical, at least just apply the same criteria to all drugs and I would be happier.

sponsoredwalk · 13-05-2010 05:16PM

rubadub wrote: »

Perhaps they keep their drug use quiet around you, if I knew you I probably would with the way you go on. I have mates who would not tell certain other mates they are on anything, they would be sitting in the pub on a half a E or after having a sneaky joint outside and not mention it to certain people, who like yourself have illogically hypocritical views on recreational drugs -so rather than suffer a mindless telling off or listen to their "concerns" they just don't tell them.

That seems kind of similar to my friends, but I think they have learned how boring those people are on a night out anyway that they would just naturally ignore them

13-05-2010 05:43PM

rubadub wrote: »

Perhaps they keep their drug use quiet around you, if I knew you I probably would with the way you go on. I have mates who would not tell certain other mates they are on anything, they would be sitting in the pub on a half a E or after having a sneaky joint outside and not mention it to certain people, who like yourself have illogically hypocritical views on recreational drugs -so rather than suffer a mindless telling off or listen to their "concerns" they just don't tell them. It always reminds me of Begbie in trainspotting, pissed off his face saying "ye would'anee catch me poisioning me body with that sh!te"

I never lectured anyone on drug use, I know well some of my friends have an odd joint after a night on the tear. I do have a friend who would go crazy though if he hears even the slightest mention of drug taking he flips. But the main thing is that alcohol is the substance of choice for a good night out among my friends and it is without question the most popular way to relax and have a good night in Ireland.

The point I was really making is for me drink is enough for me. I don't need to seek anything on top of it. I also think that people would better of with some of the more established illegal drugs than some of the substance I have heard being used as legal highs.

yogy · 13-05-2010 05:43PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

I can say for my group of about 20 friends I go out with regularly that drink is all any of are interested in. Also the packed pubs and clubs rather than empty head shops would indicate drinking is much more popular.

Your cluelessness is priceless! The fact that you and your 20 friends don't take drugs just shows you have no idea of the head shop culture other than what you read in tabloids or listen on Joe Duffy!

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

Drinking is also a social thing to do, sit around a table in the pub having the craic. You cant sit in a pub with a table full of head shop produce.

Believe me you CAN sit in a pub with a table full of head shop produce. Where else are you meant to take the stuff...pubs and clubs of course!

Cheap Thrills! · 13-05-2010 06:06PM

jackal wrote: »

And with the stuff in headshops, you are getting some untested, unregulated, unknown substance produced by a possibly obese, possibly unqualified, possibly unclean and unhinged hick in a "plant food" factory somewhere.

Unless, you know, you get out your mass spectrometer...:cool:

Nothings untested, nothing in headshops is new.

Look, everyone knows all the Bathsalts/plant foods are Mephedrone or Methylone. Cathinones. OK

Closely related to Khat, leaves that have been chewed for a high in Africa for CENTURIES. And interestingly the drug at the very bottom of the harm scale seen on this thread loads of times.

NOTHING is new. Mephedrone is at least no more harmful than ecstacy/mdma.

The other sh1t, the smokables are cannabanoids. NONE of this is untested territory. Not that I bother with them, prefer real grass anyday. But good luck to those who do like it.

ANYWAY ALL THAT IS MOOT.

We want to take it, WE take personal responsibility for ourselves. I don't want our society to be based on the American model where people are moronic and everything in society has to be foolproofed for them. That is not progress, that's going backwards.

Litigiousness and trying to harm-proof the world (our outer environment) is THE WRONG WAY TO GO.

We need to dismiss this Nanny state crap, the Government needs to stop being so drunk/half arsed/lazy and unprofessional and do the job PROPERLY. Engage with chemists, look at actual tox results from post mortems. Publish the results of properly conducted, empirical studies and stop propounding sensationalist secondhand crap from the Red Tops and biddies from middle Ireland.

They need to back the fcuk out of my business.

Pace2008 · 13-05-2010 06:16PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

I can say for my group of about 20 friends I go out with regularly that drink is all any of are interested in. Also the packed pubs and clubs rather than empty head shops would indicate drinking is much more popular.

Here's a recent survey on people's chemical of choice from a popular drugs forum:

Cannabis 0.15%
Alcohol 0.02%
Caffeine 0.01%
Benzos 0.04%
Opiates 0.12%
Cocaine 0.05%
Speed 0.02%
MDMA 0.32%
Psychedelics 0.21%
Dissociatives 0.01%
Inhalents 0.01%
GBL/GHB 0.01%
Other 0.05%

People with a good deal of drug experience will rarely put alcohol at the top of their list. It's tasty, and good for casual socialising, but it doesn't come near the likes of MDMA in my book.

Drinking is also a social thing to do, sit around a table in the pub having the craic. You cant sit in a pub with a table full of head shop produce.

Most drugs are social though. When I take pills or meph it's usually in a club with friends. I'm much more likely to talk to complete strangers when I'm out of it, and much less likely to engage in antisocial activity.

I'm more giving my opinion that I think there is enough enjoyment to be had from drinking rather than having to resort to other very dodgy substances.

Different people enjoy different highs. Some prefer downers like alcohol, others favour psychedelics, and folks like me tend towards stimulants and empathogens.

What you're saying is there's no real need for apples as oranges are plenty tasty.

Executive Steve · 13-05-2010 06:30PM

Dominick Helpful Blackjack wrote: »

I can say for my group of about 20 friends I go out with regularly that drink is all any of are interested in. Also the packed pubs and clubs rather than empty head shops would indicate drinking is much more popular.

Drinking is also a social thing to do, sit around a table in the pub having the craic. You cant sit in a pub with a table full of head shop produce.

Post of the day!

That's some first class trolling right there!

Pace2008 · 13-05-2010 06:40PM

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Nothings untested, nothing in headshops is new.

Mephedrone's hardly been around for 5 years, and it's only gained popularity in the last 2. There have been no large clinical trials done on it because there simply hasn't been time yet. How can we do anything but speculate as to the long-term effects of the drug?

Look, everyone knows all the Bathsalts/plant foods are Mephedrone or Methylone. Cathinones. OK

Closely related to Khat, leaves that have been chewed for a high in Africa for CENTURIES. And interestingly the drug at the very bottom of the harm scale seen on this thread loads of times.

Meph is derived from Khat but that' doesn't mean much. A few slight alterations to a compound's structure can significantly alter a substance's pharmacology. Look at the molecular structure for methamphetamine and mephedrone. They appear almost identical, yet the effects of the two drugs seem quite different.

NOTHING is new. Mephedrone is at least no more harmful than ecstacy/mdma.

You don't know that at all. No one does. MDMA has been around for quite a while and has been rigorously researched over the last 25 years. It is relatively well understood and we have a decent idea of its mid-to-long-term effects. We don't even understand mephedrone's mode of action.

Playboy · 13-05-2010 06:58PM

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Heres one for you.

We are adults, we want to take drugs.

I am a better judge than some obese, unknowledgable hick in the Dail to decide what I do with my body.

End of.

Im an adult .. I did probably more drugs than you will do in a lifetime. I think Headshops should be put out of business and I'm glad they have been!

FACT is drugs are bad news .. if you dont think so you are either (a) an idiot or (b) havent done enough of them that you regret it.

Have a problem with it then move to a country where noone puts a value on human life or health. I'm sure there you can happily kill yourself, destroy your life, have a nervous breakdown .. or all three but in reverse order.

End of!

Cheap Thrills! · 13-05-2010 07:03PM

Pace2008 wrote: »

Mephedrone's hardly been around for 5 years, and it's only gained popularity in the last 2. There have been no large clinical trials done on it because there simply hasn't been time yet. How can we do anything but speculate as to the long-term effects of the drug?

Meph is derived from Khat but that' doesn't mean much. A few slight alterations to a compound's structure can significantly alter a substance's pharmacology. Look at the molecular structure for methamphetamine and mephedrone. They appear almost identical, yet the effects of the two drugs seem quite different.

You don't know that at all. No one does. MDMA has been around for quite a while and has been rigorously researched over the last 25 years. It is relatively well understood and we have a decent idea of its mid-to-long-term effects. We don't even understand mephedrone's mode of action.

Granted, not on the long term (20 years effects) but it's in use about 3 years in the UK and any of the science stuff I've read on the neurological/psysiological effects says that they predict it will be similar in ecstacy in that its the amount/frequency of use that might cause problems.

I was around when e/lsd came around the first time. People guzzled that in all kinds of quatities, some were affected, some weren't.

It's like anything,there is a risk to it. But I really think people are capable of informed choice.

Klingon Hamlet · 13-05-2010 07:07PM

Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive substance, but unlike many others, it is legal and unregulated in nearly all jurisdictions.

Wikipedia

Wiipedia can be wrong frequently. In this case it's absolutely true.

Psychoactive reaction to Product sold in 'pub shop'

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