Two boys aged 10, 11 found guilty of attempted rape of girl, 8.

dearg lady · 13-05-2010 12:58PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I would beg to differ, at least to a degree. I think these 10 year olds would have a keen idea of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Taking a younger girl to an isolated place and forcing her to take knickers off on threat of assault or robbing her bike implies, at least to me, that they understood that what they were doing was 'against the rules'. Surely you'd agree that 10 year olds understand what stealing is? Surely you'd agree that 10 year old understand that hitting people is wrong? Therefore, I don't understand how you couldn't accept that they knew full well that molestation is wrong and from molestation to rape is a small step.

I'm not saying children would understand the gravitas of their actions as well as adults but I be slow to remove all personal liability.

I certainly would agree there is personal responsibility, but I have bolded what I consider a key part. they certainly knew what they were doing was wrong, but I wouldn't accept, unless I had a lot more info, that they knew just how wrong, or how much damage they would cause the girl.

ibarelycare · 13-05-2010 12:59PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'll stick my neck out and say that I don't think two ten-year-old boys can really understand what rape is, or the effects of it.

They probably saw something on tv, didn't understand what they saw (obviously, they probably knew what sex was, but none of the social behaviour that goes with it), and went out and copied it.

Emphasis should be on rehabilitation.

While I agree with this, both boys are denying the charges. That says a lot.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 12:59PM

orourkeda wrote: »

neither is raping an eight year old. ever

That goes without saying - do you think there has to be a direct link between the two, or do you think that, if we thought hard enough we might find something less extreme?

It's just that i did hear once that sometimes people tell fibs and the baby jebus cries and somethimes people make mistakes - it's hard to release someone from 30 years wrongful imprisonment if you killed them.

Disclaimer - this may not be accurate, some people never make mistakes.

Wazdakka · 13-05-2010 01:01PM

WindSock wrote: »

Perhaps they didn't set out to malicously assault the young girl. Perhaps they were experimenting as children as they thought that's what adults do when they have sex. But surely she was crying because she was being hurt and they carried on? Even a 10 year old would know that they are being cruel.
Then there is the manipulation with the scooter. They knew the girl wouldn't have agreed to the act on her own accord.

I'm not saying that they didn't understand how to manipulate the girl, or that she wasn't enjoying what was happening.
But they are 10...
It could just as easily be bullying except the kids didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing.

I remember when I was 10 putting huge effort with one of my friends into digging a hole and covering it with leaves.
We were going to try and get one of the girls from the estate to walk over it and fall in the mud by lying to her about something.

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Didn't really know what they were doing? I think that's an excuse thrown up too often. Having read the link and how they lured the girl, it seems they knew exactly what they were doing is wrong. Knowing they were causing or inflicting something on the girl or forcing something to happen that she didn't want is vile, whether they knew the name (rape) for it or not.

You cannot use the excuse 'didn't know what they were doing', they're 10 years of age, at 10 years of age you have some morality on what's right and what's wrong, otherwise there'd be no need for hiding what you did.

On what's right and what's wrong... Yes 10 year olds do have the morality to tell the difference if they were raised well.
However at that age we are still balancing the severity of the wrong things.
And a lot of the fun things that you can do with your friends at that age are things that your parents have said were bold or wrong.

I'm not trying to excuse anything that was done here.
I just sometimes don't understand how quickly adults are willing to go for the noose when one child does something to another child...

If one eight year old stabbed another in art class while they were having a fight, would you be having the same reactions?
I'd say the adult in charge would get the lash of blame first.

Call Me Jimmy · 13-05-2010 01:01PM

Nobody is born evil. If either of their parents has membership to a golf club or changes out of their pyjamas/boxers at least for some of the day I will eat my non-existent hat.

The_Minister · 13-05-2010 01:02PM

ibarelycare wrote: »

While I agree with this, both boys are denying the charges. That says a lot.

Are they denying the facts or are they denying that they committed rape?

They could be arguing that they committed the act, but that they didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 01:03PM

ibarelycare wrote: »

While I agree with this, both boys are denying the charges. That says a lot.

What do you mean by this? What does it say?

It says to me that all guilty people when caught doing heinous crimes plead innocence because it allows them to pretend to be innocent to family/friends, it opens up the opportunity of getting off on a technicality and it's almost always in their best interest (pleading guilty would not make a significant difference to the sentence). Thompson and Venables pleaded not guilty.

Also a tiny chance they didn't assault her.

The_Minister · 13-05-2010 01:03PM

Whoever said neither of them has a father with them is right - hadn't noticed that.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 01:04PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Nobody is born evil. If either of their parents has membership to a golf club or changes out of their pyjamas/boxers at least for some of the day I will eat my non-existent hat.

Yep, cause people who play golf never have deviant sex lives right;)

Call Me Jimmy · 13-05-2010 01:06PM

C'mon Fizcaraldo old chum! You know what I meant.

the_monkey · 13-05-2010 01:07PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Linking welfare and rape is one of the most preposterous things I think I've ever heard. On what basis do you make this assumption?

If you think for one second that knackers are exclusive to the british isles then you're sorely mistaken.

Not saying they are exclusive to the British Isles, I'm saying there is a lot more there.

I'm not linking welfare and rape - I'm linking welfare to the creation of little scum like this !

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-05-2010 01:07PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Linking welfare and rape is one of the most preposterous things I think I've ever heard.

... said the man who tried to link it to liberlism...?!

Stlll waiting for the proof, by the way.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 01:07PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

"Liberal do-gooders" is conservative-speak for "boogeyman". Blaming this on liblerals is much like Islamic clerics blaming earthquakes on women: it looks good and gets ignorant people angry. job done.

Please point me to any such do-gooder group (liberal or otherwise) that you say is to blame for this incident. In your own words - don't just link to it. Also, please say how.

I never blamed liberal do gooders for the commitment of this crime.

All they offer are excuses. Frankly I don't really care if these kids are "poor" or "neglected". What I do care about is that this particular case stands or falls on the evidence and it comes to a satisfactory conclusion based on this evidence.

A criminal act has been perpetrated. It should be treated like this without the need of certain individuals to apologise for something that doesnt involve them.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 01:09PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Nobody is born evil. If

How do you know? In my opinion, humans are as prone to barbarism as all other animals, however we have a much higher brain function. Thus we've developed a culture of altruism and societies that punish individuals that go against the grain (e.g. criminality).

Hannibal Smith · 13-05-2010 01:10PM

Wazdakka wrote: »

On what's right and what's wrong... Yes 10 year olds do have the morality to tell the difference if they were raised well.
However at that age we are still balancing the severity of the wrong things.
And a lot of the fun things that you can do with your friends at that age are things that your parents have said were bold or wrong.

I'm not trying to excuse anything that was done here.
I just sometimes don't understand how quickly adults are willing to go for the noose when one child does something to another child...

If one eight year old stabbed another in school would you be having the same reactions?

It's a difficult one to fathom. If you're brought up with a common sense of decency then it's hard to imagine that some one of 10 years of age could have been guilty of a crime so shocking.

Does it matter the degree in which they knew what they were doing was wrong? We all know a sexual assault is an horrendous crime. Fair enough a 10 old may not know exactly how heinous it is in society's eyes, but, from reading the article, it seems they bloomin well knew that what they were doing was far from alright. They even coaxed her by telling her she wouldn't get her scooter back.

The reason alot of people 'go for the noose' as you put it is because, as I've said it's incomprehensible how a child could think about doing something so awful to another child and it's the shock of, if they do something like this when they're 10 what on earth will they be capable of when they're adults. None of us are psychologists and no-one can truly say these children will be successfully rehabilitated, or vice versa. The whole Jon Venables saga is reason enough to be doubtful that a child can be fully rehabilitated.

If a child stabbed another child, yes it would be shocking, but no my gut reaction wouldn't be the same as in this case. But that's just me, I don't level a stabbing incident with the same gravity as an incident of rape.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 01:11PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

... said the man who tried to link it to liberlism...?!

Stlll waiting for the proof, by the way.

I didnt link the crime to liberals. Whay I did say was that they offer up excuses to attempt to "rehabilitate" the perpetrators of crimes like this.

Call Me Jimmy · 13-05-2010 01:14PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

How do you know? In my opinion, humans are as prone to barbarism as all other animals, however we have a much higher brain function. Thus we've developed a culture of altruism and societies that punish individuals that go against the grain (e.g. criminality).

So you're saying its possible for an evil baby in the womb? What about it is tangibly 'evil'? Is it possible to be evil without consciousness? hmm... meditation time for me.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 01:14PM

orourkeda wrote: »

I didnt link the crime to liberals. Whay I did say was that they offer up excuses to attempt to "rehabilitate" the perpetrators of crimes like this.

What are the alternatives? The alternatives are execution, longer custodial sentences. Longer custodial sentences puts greater strain on Prison services and makes inmates harder to control (less motivation for good behaviour -parole).

From a society point of view it would be pointless to incarcerate these children for 20 years because they'd come out of prison just as ****ed up as they went in if not worse. And it would be incredibly expensive.

rowanh · 13-05-2010 01:15PM

Things have changed, there are 10 year olds who rob cars, take drugs, steal and are violent in a way previously would have been unheard of. I think the problem is society ignoring certain areas and letting them get worse with every generation. There is a massive lack of guidance from parents who grew up without any themselves. I think this kind of thing is a wake up call that something fundamental needs to be changed to stop this type of thing becoming normal. Im not sure if the kids need to be punished or not, id say more likely they need counseling and education.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-05-2010 01:16PM

orourkeda wrote: »

The problem here is the liberal do gooders will stop justice being servd.

orourkeda wrote: »

I never blamed liberal do gooders for the commitment of this crime.

Splitters heirs. Unless the ten-year-olds in question were liberals, liberals are not responsible. Stop blindly attacking groups. Or is trying to understand why it happened a bad thing now, because that's all I see.

All they offer are excuses. Frankly I don't really care if these kids are "poor" or "neglected". What I do care about is that this particular case stands or falls on the evidence and it comes to a satisfactory conclusion based on this evidence.

That's offering an explanation, not offering an excuse. You can't solve a problem until you understand it. Show me where someone has excused the behaveiour.

orourkeda wrote: »

I didnt link the crime to liberals. Whay I did say was that they offer up excuses to attempt to "rehabilitate" the perpetrators of crimes like this.

Delt with.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 01:18PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

So you're saying its possible for an evil baby in the womb? What about it is tangibly 'evil'? Is it possible to be evil without consciousness? hmm... meditation time for me.

Evilness and goodness (for me) is defined by your actions more than your thoughts. Children that commit evil acts are evil. My argument is not that infants are born sociopaths but that all behavior is inherently selfish and we are conditioned to act less selfishly.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 01:19PM

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

That goes without saying - do you think there has to be a direct link between the two, or do you think that, if we thought hard enough we might find something less extreme?

It's just that i did hear once that sometimes people tell fibs and the baby jebus cries and somethimes people make mistakes - it's hard to release someone from 30 years wrongful imprisonment if you killed them.

Disclaimer - this may not be accurate, some people never make mistakes.

One of my beefs is that all the suggestions made do not work ar are not as effective as they could be.

As an example, what percentage of drug addicts leave prison clean. Although I don't know for sure I imagine its quite low. I am open to correction though.

If my assumption is correct and by an extension of the same logic if a drug abuser cannot be cured do we really believe that a rapist or child sex offender will be rehabilitated in the same system.

In my opinion this rehabilitation argument is cloud cuckoo land stuff and is destined to fail.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 01:20PM

Drug addicts go to prison to be punished for committing crimes. The rehab programmes are small and underfunded. The principal task of prisons and their prison officers is to keep inmates inside and alive. Prison isn't rehab.

Millicent · 13-05-2010 01:21PM

orourkeda wrote: »

I didnt link the crime to liberals. Whay I did say was that they offer up excuses to attempt to "rehabilitate" the perpetrators of crimes like this.

I know where you're coming from orourkeda but they're 10. I doubt they're master criminals at that age or even that different to a lot of other kids. Lots of kids experiment with their sexuality and while the thought of this sickens me, we don't know enough about the case to dictate a punishment. I don't see that as liberal, I see that as sensible.

Anyone can check and see my responses to any rape case on here and understand how horrible I find it- it truly is one of the most abhorrent of crimes. But it will remain to be seen whether they understood their actions enough to warrant harsh punishment. It's like locking up a special needs person for assaulting someone- they'd have to be assessed first to see if they understood the crime. You can't just summarily lock up vulnerable people and not expect some "liberal" protest.

The other thing about this is that it's possible the little girl is lying. She may have told her parents a story for fear of getting in trouble for something or she may be describing real abuse- possibly from someone she fears naming and so she is blaming these boys instead. Who knows yet? It's why we shouldn't rush to judgement yet; not because we are "liberal" or "conservative" in our views.

Stercus Accidit · 13-05-2010 01:21PM

Threads like this really bring to the fore the barbaric and ignorant nature of people, and I'm talking about the posters, not the 10 year olds.

A 10yo hasn't a brain in their head, they havn't got a functional sex drive or sex organs, and yet we have early reports of an incident where people are calling for burning, castration and so on, for idiot 10yo's?

Its testament to people's ignorance and inability to control their emotions. Kids that age force other kids to eat dog crap, beat each other up (GBH and assault charges?) in this case the stupid bast*rds did something that may or may not be considered sexual, we don't know.

What I'd guess though is that the kids hadn't a clue of the ramifications of what they did, they are 10 ffs.

I'm a dirty liberal pinko, pro free speech, pro gay rights, I don't go to church!
And I also don't call for castration or death for children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-05-2010 01:22PM

orourkeda wrote: »

One of my beefs is that all the suggestions made do not work ar are not as effective as they could be.

As an example, what percentage of drug addicts leave prison clean. Although I don't know for sure I imagine its quite low. I am open to correction though.

If my assumption is correct and by an extension of the same logic if a drug abuser cannot be cured do we really believe that a rapist or child sex offender will be rehabilitated in the same system.

In my opinion this rehabilitation argument is cloud cuckoo land stuff and is destined to fail.

"Cannot be rehabilitated in prison" therefore "cannot be rehabilitated outisee of prision. Plenty of rehabilitated drug offenders out there who sorted themselves outside of prison.

Or are you sayin prison doens't work at rehabiliting theefore we should just kill everyone who commits a crime?

How does castrating a ten-year-old stop other ten-year-olds from committing the same crime (not made at you specifically, made generally, because I don't know who's proposing it)

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 01:23PM

The simple way to look at this is that, in countries where the dethe sentence is handed out for crimes of a sexual nature, people still go ahead and commit them.

On top of this, prosecutors get things wrong.

On top of this, sometimes people lie.

On top of this, it is not possible to un-kill someone.

Given the combination of the above, I don't think knee-jerk death sentences are a good idea.

Wazdakka · 13-05-2010 01:23PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

It's a difficult one to fathom. If you're brought up with a common sense of decency then it's hard to imagine that some one of 10 years of age could have been guilty of a crime so shocking.

Does it matter the degree in which they knew what they were doing was wrong? We all know a sexual assault is an horrendous crime. Fair enough a 10 old may not know exactly how heinous it is in society's eyes, but, from reading the article, it seems they bloomin well knew that what they were doing was far from alright. They even coaxed her by telling her she wouldn't get her scooter back.

The reason alot of people 'go for the noose' as you put it is because, as I've said it's incomprehensible how a child could think about doing something so awful to another child and it's the shock of, if they do something like this when they're 10 what on earth will they be capable of when they're adults. None of us are psychologists and no-one can truly say these children will be successfully rehabilitated, or vice versa. The whole Jon Venables saga is reason enough to be doubtful that a child can be fully rehabilitated.

If a child stabbed another child, yes it would be shocking, but no my gut reaction wouldn't be the same as in this case. But that's just me, I don't level a stabbing incident with the same gravity as an incident of rape.

But there is a catch 22 with that...
The crime of rape and generally abuse towards women is considered probably the second worst that you can commit in our society....
The worst being child abuse..

Now how likely is it that you would actually have the specific discussion with a 10 year old that forcing sex with a girl is wrong..
And not just taking her sweets wrong, but one of the worst things that you can do in our society.
At 10 years old you want to shelter them from horrible crimes, not discuss them with the child and open up all manor of other questions and discussions to them.

The fact that this incident has both the rape of a girl... and the fact that it was an 8 year old girl just sets off anger alarm bells with everyone.
What if it was a 10yo girl and two 8 yo old boys??
Or what if the roles were reversed with the boy and girl?

My point is just that sometimes people let emotions or outside influence (Such as the way the article is worded) dictate their reactions instead of looking at the actual known facts.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 01:25PM

orourkeda wrote: »

One of my beefs is that all the suggestions made do not work ar are not as effective as they could be.

As an example, what percentage of drug addicts leave prison clean. Although I don't know for sure I imagine its quite low. I am open to correction though.

If my assumption is correct and by an extension of the same logic if a drug abuser cannot be cured do we really believe that a rapist or child sex offender will be rehabilitated in the same system.

In my opinion this rehabilitation argument is cloud cuckoo land stuff and is destined to fail.

The last time I checked, there was not sufficient empirical evidence to support the position that dead people are indeed 'cured'.

OutlawPete · 13-05-2010 01:25PM

Wazdakka wrote: »

I remember when I was 10 putting huge effort with one of my friends into digging a hole and covering it with leaves.
We were going to try and get one of the girls from the estate to walk over it and fall in the mud by lying to her about something.

When I was around ten I had a few strange sexual experiences that made no sense.

One girl and myself had the idea that if we both lay down underneath my Dad's car (her at the front and me at the back) and pulled down our tracksuit bottoms, we could get a good old eye full of each other ..

Can't imagine what an adult finding us would have made of it all.

I wasn't allowed to hang around with her anymore when she was caught making me pee in her plastic tea set, in her back garden .. I miss her

Anyway, these boys are ten year old children and need some form of help.

Some of the comments would more appropriate if these were adults with a history of serial rape.

Two boys aged 10, 11 found guilty of attempted rape of girl, 8.

Comments