Two boys aged 10, 11 found guilty of attempted rape of girl, 8.

bronte · 13-05-2010 12:34PM

That is the sickest thing I've heard in quite some time.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 12:34PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'll stick my neck out and say that I don't think two ten-year-old boys can really understand what rape is, or the effects of it.

They probably saw something on tv, didn't understand what they saw (obviously, they probably knew what sex was, but none of the social behaviour that goes with it), and went out and copied it.

Emphasis should be on rehabilitation.

To offset this the victim may never recover fully from this. Every grown woman struggles with this let alone young children

Hannibal Smith · 13-05-2010 12:34PM

bazmaiden wrote: »

Just seen this on Sky News, sounds horrible

Here's a snippet

Here's the full Link

I can't believe that two 10 year olds would do this to someone

Who'd have thought 10 year olds would have been capable of doing what they did to Jamie Bulger.

token56 · 13-05-2010 12:35PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'll stick my neck out and say that I don't think two ten-year-old boys can really understand what rape is, or the effects of it.

They probably saw something on tv, didn't understand what they saw (obviously, they probably knew what sex was, but none of the social behaviour that goes with it), and went out and copied it.

Emphasis should be on rehabilitation.

I think they had to understand what they were doing on some level in order to manipulate the girl like has been described in the article. I definitely think it was a learned trait, and they understood something about what they were doing, but I think its more likely it was learned by someone doing it to them. Just my opinion anyway

WindSock · 13-05-2010 12:35PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Surely not every 10 year old is sexually capable

No, I didn't say that they were

That is why this whole thing is shocking. How a 10 year old kid could come up with the idea of having sex/raping a girl with a mate is what he is supposed to do when his appendages allow him to do so makes you wonder how he came to that idea in the first place.

davyjose · 13-05-2010 12:35PM

sron wrote: »

I don't believe anyone is born evil myself, so it's irrelevant to me. But if you do believe it, you're punishing someone for something they could never prevent. Of course they couldn't be absolved completely as they might do it again, but a life sentence in a maximum security prison would be unfair.

I don't either, but people are born with differing character traits: my son and my niece are roughly the same age, and are completely different characters, you could see that in them in the first few months of their lives, so it's quite possible that some have a proclivity towards evil, moreso than others, or that character weaknesses allow evil to shape their lives more easily.

Wazdakka · 13-05-2010 12:36PM

I can't get over the amount of people who are screaming for blood / castration / hard jail time ect ect..

Ok.. It's messed up.
And what these boys did to that girl is obviously despicable and wrong.

But the boys are just children themselves... 10 years old ffs..
How can so many people say that there is no hope for them and that they'll never amount to anything..

WTF

it's not like this was a group of 30year old men who were hell bent on child abuse so assaulted and raped a little girl behind the bins.
It was a couple of children two years older than her who probably didn't really know what they were doing.

I'd agree with a few of you that there is a possibility the boys were sexually assaulted themselves..

Either way I don't think there are enough facts here for people to start lighting the torches and waving the pitchforks at two children.

Irishcrx · 13-05-2010 12:36PM

I'd imagine one of these boys has been sexualy assaulted himself, these things start at home. Also mentions that the mother went to the house and nobody was in, what kind of parent leaves there 10 year old to roam the streets without any surpervision nearby.

Either way, It's Juve at least for them it cannot go unpunished regardless of age it is a sick act and one that will effect that kid for the rest of her adult life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-05-2010 12:38PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Jesus wept.

The problem here is the liberal do gooders will stop justice being servd.

Ah, a blame-it-on-the-liberals quote inside two replies. New record. Sure are't they responsible for earthquakes, too?

I don't know which is worse: Rupert Murdoch emoticiism, or this moronic attitude that actually beleives it.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 12:38PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I'll stick my neck out and say that I don't think two ten-year-old boys can really understand what rape is, or the effects of it.

They probably saw something on tv, didn't understand what they saw (obviously, they probably knew what sex was, but none of the social behaviour that goes with it), and went out and copied it.

Emphasis should be on rehabilitation.

I would beg to differ, at least to a degree. I think these 10 year olds would have a keen idea of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Taking a younger girl to an isolated place and forcing her to take knickers off on threat of assault or robbing her bike implies, at least to me, that they understood that what they were doing was 'against the rules'. Surely you'd agree that 10 year olds understand what stealing is? Surely you'd agree that 10 year old understand that hitting people is wrong? Therefore, I don't understand how you couldn't accept that they knew full well that molestation is wrong and from molestation to rape is a small step.

I'm not saying children would understand the gravitas of their actions as well as adults but I be slow to remove all personal liability.

sron · 13-05-2010 12:39PM

orourkeda wrote: »

But the criminal justice dictates that all cases are proved beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence provided.

Surelt whether you are born evil or not is an academic or hypothetical argument at this point.

It probably is, but so is the rest of this thread. The justice system is based on rehabilitation anyway (supposedly). I'm just trying to counter the, "They're evil; scum like that should rot in jail" arguments, which are so infused with tabloid sensationalism that they amount to little more than a violent, atavistic, and emotional reaction.

The_Minister · 13-05-2010 12:39PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I would beg to differ, at least to a degree. I think these 10 year olds would have a keen idea of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Taking a younger girl to an isolated place and forcing her to take knickers off on threat of assault or robbing her bike implies, at least to me, that they understood that what they were doing was 'against the rules'. Surely you'd agree that 10 year olds understand what stealing is? Surely you'd agree that 10 year old understand that hitting people is wrong? Therefore, I don't understand how you couldn't accept that they knew full well that molestation is wrong and from molestation to rape is a small step.

I'm not saying children would understand the gravitas of their actions as well as adults but I be slow to remove all personal liability.

At that age I didn't know what rape was, let alone understand the full implications of it.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 12:41PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Ah, a blame-it-on-the-liberals quote inside two replies. New record. Sure are't they responsible for earthquakes, too?

I don't know which is worse: Rupert Murdoch emoticiism, or this moronic attitude that actually beleives it.

Liberal do gooders don't exist or would never dream of contributing in a case like this.

Sorry for appearing like a moron and presenting a figment of my imagination.

WindSock · 13-05-2010 12:43PM

The_Minister wrote: »

They probably saw something on tv, didn't understand what they saw (obviously, they probably knew what sex was, but none of the social behaviour that goes with it), and went out and copied it.

Wazdakka wrote: »

WTF
it's not like this was a group of 30year old men who were hell bent on child abuse so assaulted and raped a little girl behind the bins.
It was a couple of children two years older than her who probably didn't really know what they were doing.

Perhaps they didn't set out to malicously assault the young girl. Perhaps they were experimenting as children as they thought that's what adults do when they have sex. But surely she was crying because she was being hurt and they carried on? Even a 10 year old would know that they are being cruel.
Then there is the manipulation with the scooter. They knew the girl wouldn't have agreed to the act on her own accord.

token56 · 13-05-2010 12:44PM

The_Minister wrote: »

At that age I didn't know what rape was, let alone understand the full implications of it.

You may not have known what rape was, but would you have known it was wrong to bully the girl into doing things against her will, such as undressing herself. They knew at least part of something they were doing to wrong. And in getting her to partly undress herself before raping her, I dont think its beyond a 10 year old to realize, the action that took place after this this, i.e. the rape was also wrong.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 12:44PM

The_Minister wrote: »

At that age I didn't know what rape was, let alone understand the full implications of it.

Well I'm assuming you didn't commit the act of rape. They allegedly did. They had erections and were aware at least at a gross motor level, how the act of coitus is committed. The girl claims "put their thingies in me".

I'm not arguing this particular case is overly sexual in nature. Isn't the cliche that most rapes are act of power rather than sex? It was a very visceral act of abuse.

dearg lady · 13-05-2010 12:46PM

This is a pretty horrific crime, I hope the young girl is ok, that's the kind of thing that could haunt a person. The lads should be punished sure, but I wouldn't write them off just yet, at 10 years old it possible they didn't fully understand what they were doing, though I don't doubt they knew it was wrong.

Hannibal Smith · 13-05-2010 12:46PM

Wazdakka wrote: »

I can't get over the amount of people who are screaming for blood / castration / hard jail time ect ect..

Ok.. It's messed up.
And what these boys did to that girl is obviously despicable and wrong.

But the boys are just children themselves... 10 years old ffs..
How can so many people say that there is no hope for them and that they'll never amount to anything..

WTF
it's not like this was a group of 30year old men who were hell bent on child abuse so assaulted and raped a little girl behind the bins.
It was a couple of children two years older than her who probably didn't really know what they were doing.

I'd agree with a few of you that there is a possibility the boys were sexually assaulted themselves..

Either way I don't think there are enough facts here for people to start lighting the torches and waving the pitchforks at two children.

Didn't really know what they were doing? I think that's an excuse thrown up too often. Having read the link and how they lured the girl, it seems they knew exactly what they were doing is wrong. Knowing they were causing or inflicting something on the girl or forcing something to happen that she didn't want is vile, whether they knew the name (rape) for it or not.

You cannot use the excuse 'didn't know what they were doing', they're 10 years of age, at 10 years of age you have some morality on what's right and what's wrong, otherwise there'd be no need for hiding what you did.

Banned Account · 13-05-2010 12:47PM

The fact that you are debating this at all is proof positive that immidiate death/castration/crucifixtion etc. is not a good idea ...

... ever.

sink · 13-05-2010 12:47PM

Call me a 'pinko liberal do-gooder bleeding heart douche' if you must but 10 year olds who commit these sort of acts aren't likely to have been brought up in a stable nurturing environment. Undoubtedly these two boy suffered from neglect and abuse themselves, they need corrective therapy and rehabilitation not punishment.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 12:49PM

sron wrote: »

It probably is, but so is the rest of this thread. The justice system is based on rehabilitation anyway (supposedly). I'm just trying to counter the, "They're evil; scum like that should rot in jail" arguments, which are so infused with tabloid sensationalism that they amount to little more than a violent, atavistic, and emotional reaction.

But you also have to factor in the need for the administration of justice and the need for punishment.

It's clear that the criminal justice systems track record on rehabilitation is not particularly impressive to which you could partly attribute a relatively high ate of recidivism.

The tabloid response as you call it usually happens loudest in the immediate aftemath of a crime such as this and is understandable in a sense. It isnt always helpful but is undestandable

The_Minister · 13-05-2010 12:51PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Well I'm assuming you didn't commit the act of rape. They allegedly did. They had erections and were aware at least at a gross motor level, how the act of coitus is committed. The girl claims "put their thingies in me".

As a note, you don't need an erection to commit rape - they could have been flaccid and still raped her.

dr.bollocko · 13-05-2010 12:51PM

Needless to say, jokes about this will not be tolerated. Report any posts you find offensive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-05-2010 12:53PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Liberal do gooders don't exist or would never dream of contributing in a case like this.

Sorry for appearing like a moron and presenting a figment of my imagination.

"Liberal do-gooders" is conservative-speak for "boogeyman". Blaming this on liblerals is much like Islamic clerics blaming earthquakes on women: it looks good and gets ignorant people angry. job done.

Please point me to any such do-gooder group (liberal or otherwise) that you say is to blame for this incident. In your own words - don't just link to it. Also, please say how.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 12:54PM

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

The fact that you are debating this at all is proof positive that immidiate death/castration/crucifixtion etc. is not a good idea ...

... ever.

neither is raping an eight year old. ever

the_monkey · 13-05-2010 12:54PM

mike65 wrote: »

Saw that yesterday. If you ever needed a case to illustate how bad kids are made not born, this is it.

Yep, getting worse in the UK and IRL.

Problem is benefit payments, you have scum having kids just to get
more money , so you have parents that shouldn't be parents.

why are there so many groups of knackers and chavs in the UK and IRL ?

In Spain there is no benefit system like this - we don't have the problem
of scum like back in UK and IRL.
People can't afford kids here - they don't have them.

This shít would never happen in Spain.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 12:54PM

I am going to throw my own prejudices and judgements in here and speculate that the 2 boys in question are both:

Regularly involved in anti-social behaviour
Poor performers academically
Have neglectful parent(s)
Thieves
Bullies
etc.

Venerables and Thompson were known as little thugs (even those they were little kids too) at the time of the bolger case around the neighbour hood.

In the court artists drawing, neither boy has a male parent in attendance. (open to interpretation but mine is they don't have father figures).

In a sentence, both little knackers.

Sid_Justice · 13-05-2010 12:56PM

The_Minister wrote: »

As a note, you don't need an erection to commit rape - they could have been flaccid and still raped her.

Duly noted.

orourkeda · 13-05-2010 12:57PM

the_monkey wrote: »

Yep, getting worse in the UK and IRL.

Problem is benefit payments, you have scum having kids just to get
more money , so you have parents that shouldn't be parents.

why are there so many groups of knackers and chavs in the UK and IRL ?

In Spain there is no benefit system like this - we don't have the problem
of scum like back in UK and IRL.
People can't afford kids here - they don't have them.

This shít would never happen in Spain.

Linking welfare and rape is one of the most preposterous things I think I've ever heard. On what basis do you make this assumption?

If you think for one second that knackers are exclusive to the british isles then you're sorely mistaken.

mikom · 13-05-2010 12:57PM

the_monkey wrote: »

This shít would never happen in Spain.

http://www.theolivepress.es/2009/07/24/gang-rape-horror/

THE separate gang rapes of two under age girls have shocked Andalucia.
In total, 13 youths have been arrested in the two separate incidents – which took place just four days apart.
In the first attack in Baena, Cordoba, a 13-year-old girl was reportedly raped in broad daylight by a group of six youths.

Two boys aged 10, 11 found guilty of attempted rape of girl, 8.

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