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Where is the Libertarian explosion coming from?

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Comments

  • #62
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    nothing to do with central banks printing money like no tomorrow and rates being at record lows?

    it was state meddling in markets that triggered the events

    Nothing do with printing money no, something to do with interest rates yes. Off-course low interest rates played a role in the housing bubble. That doesn't account for the catastrophic economic collapse though.

    Central Banks have an important role to play in modern economies. Anyone who says they can be done away with is a quack.

    What matters is the people running them and the philosophy behind them. The awful former head of the Federal Reserve Alan Greenspan, to his credit, has since admitted that he was wrong to believe that that regulation wasn't required because the self interest of big investment banks would prevent them from taking absurd risk. It would be nice if Libertarians could admit the same.


  • #63
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    That's interesting alright, have you got a link for this?
    I haven't the time to go rooting through the CSO at the minute, first google link was here though.
    The CSO said more than half of the annual increase was in long-term unemployment, bringing the number of people under this heading to 89,100. The long-term unemployed now make up one-third of total unemployment, compared with just over a fifth a year earlier.


  • #64
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #65
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    During the years of plenty, long term unemployment was at or around 1%-2% of the workforce, including disability.

    Not according to this document.
    CSO Live Register Age by Duration April 2007 wrote:
    Of all claimants on the Live Register in April 2007, 34.6% of males and 22.6% of females were long-term claimants.


  • #66
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Says who? Who is to say that a truly private financial system would have similarly collapsed and left the less well off in total ruin. I mean in a system whose players act in complete self interest wouldn't bankers prioritise building up their pay and pensions? And if the company goes bust why should they care. They have an untouchable pension and will be rehired elsewhere. You have argued in favour of these last two things, contractual agreements and all that


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  • #67
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #68
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    Not according to this document.
    Which supports what I was saying, being a bit less than a third of 4.6%, or between 1% and 2%. And that was when unemployment was climbing quickly.


  • #69
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    The central banks are firmly in bed with various governments, they try to give an appearance of "independence" in order to prevent confidence in the "scheme" from collapsing

    nonsense, think you ought to head to the conspiracy theory forum. the ECB is in charge of monetary policy for all within the euro area, they most certainly are not in bed with the irish governments fiscal policy or any other euro area governments.


  • #70
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Which supports what I was saying, being a bit less than a third of 4.6%, or between 1% and 2%. And that was when unemployment was climbing quickly.

    My mistake, you're right. Total employment was 1998000, according to this giving 2.2% of the workforce in long term unemployment.


  • #71
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    aDeener wrote: »
    nonsense, think you ought to head to the conspiracy theory forum. the ECB is in charge of monetary policy for all within the euro area, they most certainly are not in bed with the irish governments fiscal policy or any other euro area governments.

    You haven't been watching the news today no?


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  • #72
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    aDeener wrote: »
    nonsense, think you ought to head to the conspiracy theory forum. the ECB is in charge of monetary policy for all within the euro area, they most certainly are not in bed with the irish governments fiscal policy or any other euro area governments.
    Indeed, prior to the collapse the ECB had gained itself quite the reputation for the odds of it taking action being inversely proportional to the amount of pressure put on it by national governments.


  • #73
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    No no no, that's a cop out.

    Your using knowledge gained from hindsight to suppose that this is what the heads of these banks knew and thought at the time.

    They didn't know they would get bailed out, indeed they didn't even understand their own predicament. That's the point. They were taking risks that they didn't understand. And remember that Lehman Brothers was allowed to go bankrupt.

    In Libertarian argument the response to the crisis is painted as the cause of the crisis.. It's like blaming the Fire Brigade for fires. If only the Fire Brigade didn't exist, then everyone would be more careful and conflagrations wouldn't occur.


  • #74
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    My mistake, you're right. Total employment was 1998000, according to this giving 2.2% of the workforce in long term unemployment.
    Yes, people generally don't like being unemployed and are quite happy to get ahead under their own steam, there is no lack of motivation in the Irish workforce. The problem is the system was set up with a serious lack of foresight and planning, which is why we're in so much trouble today. If the government had a clue they would be promoting jobs and enterprise, taking advantage of that strongly motivated, educated and intelligent workforce.


  • #75
    joehanley55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭joehanley55


    aDeener wrote: »
    nonsense, think you ought to head to the conspiracy theory forum. the ECB is in charge of monetary policy for all within the euro area, they most certainly are not in bed with the irish governments fiscal policy or any other euro area governments.


    sorry to laugh but HAHAHAHA

    who do u think the ECB are? how can they be so perfect and unbiased when everyone else in the world is. its made up of people. self interested people. and these people are influenced by other selfinterested groups and people. most importantly, the governments or the eu. who made the ecb, and who theoretically can get rid of it, or at least reduce its funding?

    really, the idea that the ecb is not in bed with government interests, or that any group that pruports to forcefully act in the interest of others for the greater good will be effective, you clearly are the one whos got a whopper of a conspiracy theory on your hands

    :pac::D;):p


  • #76
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Indeed, prior to the collapse the ECB had gained itself quite the reputation for the odds of it taking action being inversely proportional to the amount of pressure put on it by national governments.

    And today they turn around and buy 600+ billion worth of junk from the most messed up eu states

    yes they are very independent :rolleyes:

    no pressure at all from the emergency EU ministers meeting yesterday


  • #77
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    And today they turn around and buy 600+ billion worth of junk from the most messed up eu states

    yes they are very independent :rolleyes:

    no pressure at all from the emergency EU ministers meeting yesterday
    You'll note I said "prior to the collapse", since much of your argument is predicated on the idea that government interference with the ECB caused the collapse, I hope you see the point being made...


  • #78
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #79
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    You'll note I said "prior to the collapse", since much of your argument is predicated on the idea that government interference with the ECB caused the collapse, I hope you see the point being made...

    You are correct in saying that ECB didnt lower rates as much as others (FED,BOE etc) and is still higher than them

    but they did go with the flow

    anyways since money flows across borders very easily and Ireland is wide open

    all it takes is the likes of the Japanese or the Americans to lower rates and a carry trade starts flooding money into other higher rate economies

    Do you deny that cheap credit (expanded money supply creating a wall of money) from abroad is responsible for fuelling ours (and other states) asset bubbles?

    right now this wall of money has moved to China (and left us) and they will endup with their own bursting asset bubble soon enough...


  • #80
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes.

    Have you ever heard of the burning of Rome, the great fires of London?


  • #81
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Do you deny that cheap credit (expanded money supply creating a wall of money) from abroad is responsible for fuelling ours (and other states) asset bubbles?
    Germany, among others, had access to the same rates and didn't have a property bubble...


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  • #82
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    You are correct in saying that ECB didnt lower rates as much as others (FED,BOE etc) and is still higher than them

    but they did go with the flow

    anyways since money flows across borders very easily and Ireland is wide open

    all it takes is the likes of the Japanese or the Americans to lower rates and a carry trade starts flooding money into other higher rate economies

    Do you deny that cheap credit (expanded money supply creating a wall of money) from abroad is responsible for fuelling ours (and other states) asset bubbles?

    right now this wall of money has moved to China (and left us) and they will endup with their own bursting asset bubble soon enough...

    And how exactly would libertarianism sto the same thing from happening with privately run institutions flooding a Market with cheap money?


  • #83
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #84
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Germany, among others, had access to the same rates and didn't have a property bubble...

    people in Germany are a bit more mature and civilised (here in Ireland we forgot what bad times look like)
    they also have a problem with demographics


    Laminations wrote: »
    And how exactly would libertarianism sto the same thing from happening with privately run institutions flooding a Market with cheap money?

    how would you create money out of thin air if the money is based on gold or a basket of metals or energy?


  • #85
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    how would you create money out of thin air if the money is based on gold or a basket of metals or energy?

    that's an argument for changing financial indexing, it's not an argument against government involvement


  • #86
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    joehanley55 wrote: »
    sorry to laugh but HAHAHAHA

    who do u think the ECB are? how can they be so perfect and unbiased when everyone else in the world is. its made up of people. self interested people. and these people are influenced by other selfinterested groups and people. most importantly, the governments or the eu. who made the ecb, and who theoretically can get rid of it, or at least reduce its funding?

    really, the idea that the ecb is not in bed with government interests, or that any group that pruports to forcefully act in the interest of others for the greater good will be effective, you clearly are the one whos got a whopper of a conspiracy theory on your hands

    :pac::D;):p

    seeing as the ecb is made up of people with self interests in various different governments, then how the hell could the ecb be in bed with all the governments. ffs :rolleyes: that could not possibly work as there are too many conflicts between the euro area governments fiscal policies.


    say for example, if france is employing a loose fiscal policy and ireland a tight one, explain this to me genius how exactly the ECB is going to be in bed with both of them? :rolleyes: and thats just 2 economies, trying employing that to the euro area as a whole


  • #87
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    people in Germany are a bit more mature and civilised (here in Ireland we forgot what bad times look like)
    Hold on there a minute, how do you mean people in Germany are more civilised and mature? Don't mistake the actions of the government for the general character of the people, the political system in Ireland is set up in a really bad and self defeating manner that puts the focus on the parish pump, neither constituents nor TDs had much motivation to focus on the national picture. We have a chance to change that now, lets hope enough people hear about it and support a change.


  • #88
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Laminations wrote: »
    that's an argument for changing financial indexing, it's not an argument against government involvement

    he raised a question about an issue that is at the core of government involvement

    governments are not willing/able of cutting back on waste (As seen in Ireland and Greece) so eventually they resort to inflating the money (today's events) supply making everyone poorer equally

    its easy to inflate money when its nothing more than paper or digits on computer screens


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Hold on there a minute, how do you mean people in Germany are more civilised and mature? Don't mistake the actions of the government for the general character of the people, the political system in Ireland is set up in a really bad and self defeating manner that puts the focus on the parish pump, neither constituents nor TDs had much motivation to focus on the national picture. We have a chance to change that now, lets hope enough people hear about it and support a change.

    I agree with you regarding Ireland having its share of issues
    but your answer to the problem is "change" to a different parish pump called "Amhran Nua" :D
    libertarian answer is to knock-down the above top down approach and replace it with a bottom up approach (if thats what the people want of course...) which is centred around people and contracts between people
    that's where our opinions separate

    now me being realistic i understand that people in power will not relinquish it easily, but unlike the commies, the libertarians have no intention of starting revolutions etc and by the vary nature its unlikely any coherent group would ever be formed, but its possible that some parties will take a more "libertarian leaning" approach to their policies and give people more freedoms (the very fact that its the state who has to give citizens freedoms and not the other way around is why the current system is so messed up)



    I made an example earlier in another thread that Libertarianism is like Atheism (lack of belief in state) while all the other "isms" are like various religions....


  • #89
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Odd for a Libertarian to suggest that it should be easier for a government to demolish perfectly good buildings.

    To support the Libertarian position are you arguing that the government should just let the fire burn?


  • #90
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    its easy to inflate money when its nothing more than paper or digits on computer screens

    and it'd be equally easy for private firms to do same under a libertarian system.


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  • #91
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Laminations wrote: »
    and it'd be equally easy for private firms to do same under a libertarian system.

    if they want to gamble with numbers on screens then that's their problem, there are trillions of derivatives out there few times larger than the world economy

    the only reason that the banking fiasco became our problem, is because the government made it our problem


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