Brian Cowen - A Traitor To Those That Died In 1916?

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:03AM #1

Brian Cowen tonight won a vote - by ONE vote to defeat the call for thousands to have their chance to regain an elected representative for their areas.

Rather than call now, not one not two - but three by-elections long over due (AND holding up a referendum on childrens rights!) so that he can cling on to power, he got the supposed independent (for the position he holds) Ceann Comhairle to have to save his ass tonight by voting with FF again. Meanwhile the disgusting Green Party is in cahoots with the FF mafia in this disgusting display of denying thousands in Ireland their chance to elect an official representatives to their Dail to stand up for them and their constituency.

I'm calling Brian Cowen, Fianna Fail and The Greens TRAITORS to Irish democracy.
They are TRAITORS to those that died in 1916 who stood firm for the idea that the Irish should have its own democracy.

I want to know from the rest of you - am I right to think this!

News Items:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/politics.html
and
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/taoiseach-running-scared-on-polls-2166302.html

AnonoBoy · 06-05-2010 12:06AM

But wouldn't it have been by more votes if 2 FF TDs hadn't voted against by accident cause they were not able to figure out how to vote properly?

They're smart lads them Fianna Fail TDs.

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:07AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

But wouldn't it have been by more votes if 2 FF TDs hadn't voted against by accident cause they were not able to figure out how to vote properly?

2 FF men supposedly voted wrong!
I've been in the Dail many times and I have rarely seen a FF man/woman vote wrong ONCE.
Tonight TWO did it - on the same topic (topics can have a number of sectional voting areas) and in the same vote - I find that VERY strange, even more rare and perhaps telling...

OutlawPete · 06-05-2010 12:10AM

TDs get paid too much money that is why they don't care about things that matter.

Of course there are traitors and and corrupt members of government, it's inevitable when you pay them a kings ransom annually.

They should get just above minimum wage as far as I am concerned.

Then they would make sure the country functioned well and fairly for those without the luxury of having deep pockets.

Drumpot · 06-05-2010 12:14AM

I take it you have been out of touch with Irish politics for some time ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 06-05-2010 12:20AM

How do you accidently vote for the opposition?

AnonoBoy · 06-05-2010 12:20AM

Biggins wrote: »

2 FF men supposedly voted wrong!
I've been in the Dail many times and I have rarely seen a FF man/woman vote wrong ONCE.
Tonight TWO did it - on the same topic (topics can have a number of sectional voting areas) and in the same vote - I find that VERY strange, even more rare and perhaps telling...

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

marco_polo · 06-05-2010 12:21AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

TDs get paid too much money that is why they don't care about things that matter.

Of course there are traitors and and corrupt members of government, it's inevitable when you pay them a kings ransom annually.

They should get just above minimum wage as far as I am concerned.

Then they would make sure the country functioned well and fairly for those without the luxury of having deep pockets.

While our lot are certainly overpaid (and indeed present in far too great a number) in comparison to similar countries, surely corruption be even more prevelant if they were on just above the minimum wage?

Dunjohn · 06-05-2010 12:23AM

Disagree with the result of a vote, do we? That's democracy for you.

Drumpot · 06-05-2010 12:24AM

marco_polo wrote: »

While our lot are certainly overpaid, wouldn't corruption be even more likely if they were on just above minimum wage?

Are you a garda ?

Nope, that age old arguement (of paying a person enough will prevent corruption) is futile and poorly thought . . Look at bankers or the guy who played with Billions of other peoples money . Its not about money, its about power over others and not being able to show moral courage to match your supposed convictions . .

Einhard · 06-05-2010 12:24AM

Damn, I voted no without reading the post properly. Now there's gonna be 3,999,999 yes votes and just the single no, and it'll be all my fault! I'll have to live with it forever!:eek:

*Goes off and commits harakiri*

murpho999 · 06-05-2010 12:24AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

It's all because Martin Cullen is not there to explain it!

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:25AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

They managed to get the Dail voting system working just fine recently when they voted down the funds to help wards and theatres open in Crumlins Children's hospital all right!
If they supposedly NOW can't even press yes or no on their right hand side keypad built into the arm of their Dail seats - they must be right stupid!

LoanShark · 06-05-2010 12:25AM

We don't need an election/bye election at the moment..We need political stability...

I do agree that we do need a change in blood in government...But not yet..!

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:26AM

Dunjohn wrote: »

Disagree with the result of a vote, do we? That's democracy for you.

Aye - by denying it to others

OutlawPete · 06-05-2010 12:27AM

marco_polo wrote: »

While our lot are certainly overpaid, wouldn't corruption be even more likely if they were on just above minimum wage?

No, as it would be more obvious if they were leaving beyond their means.

Why should a TD earn more than a teacher or a Guard?

Why should they improve health care when if anything happens them or their family, they will end up in the Charlemont or Blackrock.

Why should they worry about taxes negatively effecting those on low wages when it doesn't effect them directly?

I have never understood why politicians need to be on such a high wage, on the contrary I can see so many reasons why they shouldn't.

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:34AM

LoanShark wrote: »

We don't need an election/bye election at the moment..We need political stability...

I do agree that we do need a change in blood in government...But not yet..!

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

Euro_Kraut · 06-05-2010 12:36AM

It is interesting the neither Fine Gael or Labour put this vote forward. It was Sinn Fein.

Lab and FG, in particular, are probably not ready yet for the by-election hence their reluctance to call for it. Maybe that makes them traitors too?

Traditionally it has been up to the party who originally held the seat to 'move the writ'. FG held the Dublin South seat until Geogre Lee left. Conventional wisdom is that Labour will take that seat through Alex White. It probably explains why FG have not made an effort to move the writ on that seat yet. If they did make that move that it would be extremely difficult for the Govt to vote it down.

Part of me thinks FG are happy to be in opposition for the next year or so. Kenny has never struck me as man with a real ambition to lead the country through tough times.

starbelgrade · 06-05-2010 12:40AM

Biggins wrote: »

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

Biggins, I agree with a lot you say, but do you not think that revoking the spirit of 1916 & comparing our current government to the greatest dictatorships of modern history, is taking it just a teeny weeny bit too far?

marco_polo · 06-05-2010 12:41AM

Drumpot wrote: »

Are you a garda ?

Nope.

Nope, that age old arguement (of paying a person enough will prevent corruption) is futile and poorly thought . . Look at bankers or the guy who played with Billions of other peoples money . Its not about money, its about power over others and not being able to show moral courage to match your supposed convictions . .

Those are valid point however I certainly never claimed that it would eliminate it. I don't think you could seriously argue that money is never a factor.

We have all but eliminated the possibilities in public life for obvious 'brown envelope' type of corruption that was prevelant in the 1980s. This is somewhat different from other more subtle forms such as cronyism, 'jobs for the boys' etc which are still prevalent.

cson · 06-05-2010 12:42AM

Biggins wrote: »

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

You're doing those lads an injustice to be honest.

Turtyturd · 06-05-2010 12:44AM

He's not quite Roy Keane, didn't we have one of these threads last week?

Drumpot · 06-05-2010 12:45AM

Biggins wrote: »

Aye - by denying it to others

I agree with your cynicism regarding anything political in this country, but do not make the mistake to assume its limited to FF . .

Im not Pro FF, Im really anti Political establishment in Ireland . . I think the whole thing is wrong and many/most of the TDs are motivated by the wrong things . . Sad thing is I understand why, but it doesnt make it right . .

For us to get a better government, we need to vote for a better, cleaner politician, not just simply a new party. . .

I ask you this question . . Would you be confident that FG or Labour would always do things thats best for the country (if it was going to potentially harm their popularity or position of power?). Do you honestly believe they wouldnt try these kind of tricks ? If so, Im sorry for your naivety . .

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:48AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Biggins, I agree with a lot you say, but do you not think that revoking the spirit of 1916 & comparing our current government to the greatest dictatorships of modern history, is taking it just a teeny weeny bit too far?

No, they are in their own ways, using any excuse to stay in power, using any opportunity be it economic threats, quiet political deals with the heads of the Green party and Independents - and over riding the rights of those that right NOW (and for some considerable months) have no representatives to speak their voice.

starbelgrade · 06-05-2010 12:50AM

Biggins wrote: »

No, they are in their own ways, using any excuse to stay in power, using any opportunity be it economic threats, quiet political deals with the heads of the Green party and Independents - and over riding the rights of those that right NOW (and for some considerable months) have no representatives to speak their voice.

Well, that's the nature of the political beast.

Biggins · 06-05-2010 12:52AM

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree with your cynicism regarding anything political in this country, but do not make the mistake to assume its limited to FF . .

Im not Pro FF, Im really anti Political establishment in Ireland . . I think the whole thing is wrong and many/most of the TDs are motivated by the wrong things . . Sad thing is I understand why, but it doesnt make it right . .

For us to get a better government, we need to vote for a better, cleaner politician, not just simply a new party. . .

I ask you this question . . Would you be confident that FG or Labour would always do things thats best for the country (if it was going to potentially harm their popularity or position of power?). Do you honestly believe they wouldnt try these kind of tricks ? If so, Im sorry for your naivety . .

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

Drumpot · 06-05-2010 12:56AM

Biggins wrote: »

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

And my answer is no . . He is elected by the people of this country and only by our hands does he have the "power" to do such things . .

My view is that democracy is alive and well, the problem is the people who are in control of it dont know how to demand that their democratic rights be properly adhered to . .

I think we all have to take some responsibility for the supposed undemocratic state you believe we live in . . If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it. . Blaming politicians is a cop out, we all want a big baddy to be the fault for our woes, but in truth the hardest thing to accept can be the fact that we can be our own worst enemies . .

marco_polo · 06-05-2010 12:58AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

No, as it would be more obvious if they were leaving beyond their means.

Why should a TD earn more than a teacher or a Guard?

Why should they improve health care when if anything happens them or their family, they will end up in the Charlemont or Blackrock.

Why should they worry about taxes negatively effecting those on low wages when it doesn't effect them directly?

I have never understood why politicians need to be on such a high wage, on the contrary I can see so many reasons why they shouldn't.

In fairness those are very comfortable middle class income, the post that I answered mentioned slightly above minimum wage which is a very different kettle of fish altogether.

In the countries I was thinking of politicians wouldn't earn a drastic amount more than that. In the Netherlands for example as I recall the basic salary it is in the region of 75-80,000 a year, which is about in the ballpark of the bottom rung of the ladder of the senior lecturer scale here to put it in context.

Biggins · 06-05-2010 01:06AM

Drumpot wrote: »

...If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it. . Blaming politicians is a cop out, we all want a big baddy to be the fault for our woes, but in truth the hardest thing to accept can be the fact that we can be our own worst enemies . .

Have a second glance at what you just wrote above!

"If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it"

Ok - but from who? I'd say from our politicians - I would have thought that would be the obvious route... but then you go on to say...

"...Blaming politicians is a cop out" ok! So who do we blame, hold responsible and go to - if they are not the VERY people who decided the ways and means of our democracy, transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics!!!

You do say one this that rings true: "...we can be our own worst enemies..."
By sure we can, many still are too feckin' lazy to do anything - not until it effects their pockets - and even THEN the Irish mentality is to let them get away with it.
Yes, we are being our own worst enemies!

aDeener · 06-05-2010 01:13AM

Biggins wrote: »

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

bloody hell, would you maybe attempt to give it a rest for a week!?

they were voted in for 5 years by the people, it looks like they will see it out barring something major. time to get used to it. oh and you will probably have to get used to them being voted in again in 2012

Drumpot · 06-05-2010 01:17AM

Biggins wrote: »

Have a second glance at what you just wrote above!

"If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it"

Ok - but from who? I'd say from our politicians - I would have thought that would be the obvious route... but then you go on to say...

"...Blaming politicians is a cop out" ok! So who do we blame, hold responsible and go to - if they are not the VERY people who decided the ways and means of our democracy, transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics!!!

You do say one this that rings true: "...we can be our own worst enemies..."
By sure we can, many still are too feckin' lazy to do anything - not until it effects their pockets - and even THEN the Irish mentality is to let them get away with it.
Yes, we are being our own worst enemies!

Biggins you have to start somewhere . . Only revolutions make radical changes (god damn, my writing index finger is cut so Im delayed in replying!) . . In the absence of that, you need to try to encourage small but significant changes . . You know that if public opinion favoured honesty and integrity, it would be reflected in the next election . .

What I propose is a long term strategy to a fundamental flaw in the way Irish People vote . . In scandanavia the people consider integrity a vital characteristic in their politician. This is not to say that there is no corruption in their political system, but its certainly a good starting point .

I dont actually believe that ALL the politicians we have are dodgy, I just think they are slaves to the system we vote by . . Politicians are judged by what they can get us, not really by their results . .

I know many think I am naieve, I just think that we deserve better and to get that we need to change our mentality . . I really believe we can achieve this, but think that there is so much negativity and feeling of no hope that people dont have the vision to try .

Brian Cowen - A Traitor To Those That Died In 1916?

Is Brain Cowen, Fianna Fail and The Green Party Traitors To Irish Democracy? 164 votes

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