Brian Cowen - A Traitor To Those That Died In 1916?

Biggins

Brian Cowen tonight won a vote - by ONE vote to defeat the call for thousands to have their chance to regain an elected representative for their areas.

Rather than call now, not one not two - but three by-elections long over due (AND holding up a referendum on childrens rights!) so that he can cling on to power, he got the supposed independent (for the position he holds) Ceann Comhairle to have to save his ass tonight by voting with FF again. Meanwhile the disgusting Green Party is in cahoots with the FF mafia in this disgusting display of denying thousands in Ireland their chance to elect an official representatives to their Dail to stand up for them and their constituency.

I'm calling Brian Cowen, Fianna Fail and The Greens TRAITORS to Irish democracy.
They are TRAITORS to those that died in 1916 who stood firm for the idea that the Irish should have its own democracy.

I want to know from the rest of you - am I right to think this!

News Items:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/politics.html
and
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/taoiseach-running-scared-on-polls-2166302.html

AnonoBoy

But wouldn't it have been by more votes if 2 FF TDs hadn't voted against by accident cause they were not able to figure out how to vote properly?

They're smart lads them Fianna Fail TDs.

Biggins

AnonoBoy wrote: »

But wouldn't it have been by more votes if 2 FF TDs hadn't voted against by accident cause they were not able to figure out how to vote properly?

2 FF men supposedly voted wrong!
I've been in the Dail many times and I have rarely seen a FF man/woman vote wrong ONCE.
Tonight TWO did it - on the same topic (topics can have a number of sectional voting areas) and in the same vote - I find that VERY strange, even more rare and perhaps telling...

OutlawPete

TDs get paid too much money that is why they don't care about things that matter.

Of course there are traitors and and corrupt members of government, it's inevitable when you pay them a kings ransom annually.

They should get just above minimum wage as far as I am concerned.

Then they would make sure the country functioned well and fairly for those without the luxury of having deep pockets.

Drumpot

I take it you have been out of touch with Irish politics for some time ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

How do you accidently vote for the opposition?

AnonoBoy

Biggins wrote: »

2 FF men supposedly voted wrong!
I've been in the Dail many times and I have rarely seen a FF man/woman vote wrong ONCE.
Tonight TWO did it - on the same topic (topics can have a number of sectional voting areas) and in the same vote - I find that VERY strange, even more rare and perhaps telling...

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

marco_polo

OutlawPete wrote: »

TDs get paid too much money that is why they don't care about things that matter.

Of course there are traitors and and corrupt members of government, it's inevitable when you pay them a kings ransom annually.

They should get just above minimum wage as far as I am concerned.

Then they would make sure the country functioned well and fairly for those without the luxury of having deep pockets.

While our lot are certainly overpaid (and indeed present in far too great a number) in comparison to similar countries, surely corruption be even more prevelant if they were on just above the minimum wage?

Dunjohn

Disagree with the result of a vote, do we? That's democracy for you.

Drumpot

marco_polo wrote: »

While our lot are certainly overpaid, wouldn't corruption be even more likely if they were on just above minimum wage?

Are you a garda ?

Nope, that age old arguement (of paying a person enough will prevent corruption) is futile and poorly thought . . Look at bankers or the guy who played with Billions of other peoples money . Its not about money, its about power over others and not being able to show moral courage to match your supposed convictions . .

Einhard

Damn, I voted no without reading the post properly. Now there's gonna be 3,999,999 yes votes and just the single no, and it'll be all my fault! I'll have to live with it forever!:eek:

*Goes off and commits harakiri*

murpho999

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

It's all because Martin Cullen is not there to explain it!

Biggins

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They can't get their head around the new-fangled electronic voting from what I hear.

They managed to get the Dail voting system working just fine recently when they voted down the funds to help wards and theatres open in Crumlins Children's hospital all right!
If they supposedly NOW can't even press yes or no on their right hand side keypad built into the arm of their Dail seats - they must be right stupid!

LoanShark

We don't need an election/bye election at the moment..We need political stability...

I do agree that we do need a change in blood in government...But not yet..!

Biggins

Dunjohn wrote: »

Disagree with the result of a vote, do we? That's democracy for you.

Aye - by denying it to others

OutlawPete

marco_polo wrote: »

While our lot are certainly overpaid, wouldn't corruption be even more likely if they were on just above minimum wage?

No, as it would be more obvious if they were leaving beyond their means.

Why should a TD earn more than a teacher or a Guard?

Why should they improve health care when if anything happens them or their family, they will end up in the Charlemont or Blackrock.

Why should they worry about taxes negatively effecting those on low wages when it doesn't effect them directly?

I have never understood why politicians need to be on such a high wage, on the contrary I can see so many reasons why they shouldn't.

Biggins

LoanShark wrote: »

We don't need an election/bye election at the moment..We need political stability...

I do agree that we do need a change in blood in government...But not yet..!

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

Euro_Kraut

It is interesting the neither Fine Gael or Labour put this vote forward. It was Sinn Fein.

Lab and FG, in particular, are probably not ready yet for the by-election hence their reluctance to call for it. Maybe that makes them traitors too?

Traditionally it has been up to the party who originally held the seat to 'move the writ'. FG held the Dublin South seat until Geogre Lee left. Conventional wisdom is that Labour will take that seat through Alex White. It probably explains why FG have not made an effort to move the writ on that seat yet. If they did make that move that it would be extremely difficult for the Govt to vote it down.

Part of me thinks FG are happy to be in opposition for the next year or so. Kenny has never struck me as man with a real ambition to lead the country through tough times.

starbelgrade

Biggins wrote: »

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

Biggins, I agree with a lot you say, but do you not think that revoking the spirit of 1916 & comparing our current government to the greatest dictatorships of modern history, is taking it just a teeny weeny bit too far?

marco_polo

Drumpot wrote: »

Are you a garda ?

Nope.

Nope, that age old arguement (of paying a person enough will prevent corruption) is futile and poorly thought . . Look at bankers or the guy who played with Billions of other peoples money . Its not about money, its about power over others and not being able to show moral courage to match your supposed convictions . .

Those are valid point however I certainly never claimed that it would eliminate it. I don't think you could seriously argue that money is never a factor.

We have all but eliminated the possibilities in public life for obvious 'brown envelope' type of corruption that was prevelant in the 1980s. This is somewhat different from other more subtle forms such as cronyism, 'jobs for the boys' etc which are still prevalent.

cson

Biggins wrote: »

Hitler - Stalin - Pol Pot - Mao T'se Tung - North Korea - Malaysia - Burma (Marmar) - even China to date... said/say the same thing!

Any bloody excuse to get in power and/or stay there any any means necessary!

You're doing those lads an injustice to be honest.

Turtyturd

He's not quite Roy Keane, didn't we have one of these threads last week?

Drumpot

Biggins wrote: »

Aye - by denying it to others

I agree with your cynicism regarding anything political in this country, but do not make the mistake to assume its limited to FF . .

Im not Pro FF, Im really anti Political establishment in Ireland . . I think the whole thing is wrong and many/most of the TDs are motivated by the wrong things . . Sad thing is I understand why, but it doesnt make it right . .

For us to get a better government, we need to vote for a better, cleaner politician, not just simply a new party. . .

I ask you this question . . Would you be confident that FG or Labour would always do things thats best for the country (if it was going to potentially harm their popularity or position of power?). Do you honestly believe they wouldnt try these kind of tricks ? If so, Im sorry for your naivety . .

Biggins

starbelgrade wrote: »

Biggins, I agree with a lot you say, but do you not think that revoking the spirit of 1916 & comparing our current government to the greatest dictatorships of modern history, is taking it just a teeny weeny bit too far?

No, they are in their own ways, using any excuse to stay in power, using any opportunity be it economic threats, quiet political deals with the heads of the Green party and Independents - and over riding the rights of those that right NOW (and for some considerable months) have no representatives to speak their voice.

starbelgrade

Biggins wrote: »

No, they are in their own ways, using any excuse to stay in power, using any opportunity be it economic threats, quiet political deals with the heads of the Green party and Independents - and over riding the rights of those that right NOW (and for some considerable months) have no representatives to speak their voice.

Well, that's the nature of the political beast.

Biggins

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree with your cynicism regarding anything political in this country, but do not make the mistake to assume its limited to FF . .

Im not Pro FF, Im really anti Political establishment in Ireland . . I think the whole thing is wrong and many/most of the TDs are motivated by the wrong things . . Sad thing is I understand why, but it doesnt make it right . .

For us to get a better government, we need to vote for a better, cleaner politician, not just simply a new party. . .

I ask you this question . . Would you be confident that FG or Labour would always do things thats best for the country (if it was going to potentially harm their popularity or position of power?). Do you honestly believe they wouldnt try these kind of tricks ? If so, Im sorry for your naivety . .

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

Drumpot

Biggins wrote: »

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

And my answer is no . . He is elected by the people of this country and only by our hands does he have the "power" to do such things . .

My view is that democracy is alive and well, the problem is the people who are in control of it dont know how to demand that their democratic rights be properly adhered to . .

I think we all have to take some responsibility for the supposed undemocratic state you believe we live in . . If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it. . Blaming politicians is a cop out, we all want a big baddy to be the fault for our woes, but in truth the hardest thing to accept can be the fact that we can be our own worst enemies . .

marco_polo

OutlawPete wrote: »

No, as it would be more obvious if they were leaving beyond their means.

Why should a TD earn more than a teacher or a Guard?

Why should they improve health care when if anything happens them or their family, they will end up in the Charlemont or Blackrock.

Why should they worry about taxes negatively effecting those on low wages when it doesn't effect them directly?

I have never understood why politicians need to be on such a high wage, on the contrary I can see so many reasons why they shouldn't.

In fairness those are very comfortable middle class income, the post that I answered mentioned slightly above minimum wage which is a very different kettle of fish altogether.

In the countries I was thinking of politicians wouldn't earn a drastic amount more than that. In the Netherlands for example as I recall the basic salary it is in the region of 75-80,000 a year, which is about in the ballpark of the bottom rung of the ladder of the senior lecturer scale here to put it in context.

Biggins

Drumpot wrote: »

...If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it. . Blaming politicians is a cop out, we all want a big baddy to be the fault for our woes, but in truth the hardest thing to accept can be the fact that we can be our own worst enemies . .

Have a second glance at what you just wrote above!

"If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it"

Ok - but from who? I'd say from our politicians - I would have thought that would be the obvious route... but then you go on to say...

"...Blaming politicians is a cop out" ok! So who do we blame, hold responsible and go to - if they are not the VERY people who decided the ways and means of our democracy, transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics!!!

You do say one this that rings true: "...we can be our own worst enemies..."
By sure we can, many still are too feckin' lazy to do anything - not until it effects their pockets - and even THEN the Irish mentality is to let them get away with it.
Yes, we are being our own worst enemies!

aDeener

Biggins wrote: »

Please don't try and side-track the issue. Your issue is for another thread and has already been discussed at GREAT length! Look it up.

I posed a question. With the denying of now thousands their right to have an elected official stand up for them, is THEIR (your fellow irish person remember!) democratic rights being denied to them?
Is Cowen and Co traitors to the ideals of those they just a weeks a go, stood and praised in commemoration at the Garden of Remembrance?

bloody hell, would you maybe attempt to give it a rest for a week!?

they were voted in for 5 years by the people, it looks like they will see it out barring something major. time to get used to it. oh and you will probably have to get used to them being voted in again in 2012

Drumpot

Biggins wrote: »

Have a second glance at what you just wrote above!

"If our electorate actually wanted transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics, they would demand it"

Ok - but from who? I'd say from our politicians - I would have thought that would be the obvious route... but then you go on to say...

"...Blaming politicians is a cop out" ok! So who do we blame, hold responsible and go to - if they are not the VERY people who decided the ways and means of our democracy, transparency, fairness, morals and ethics in politics!!!

You do say one this that rings true: "...we can be our own worst enemies..."
By sure we can, many still are too feckin' lazy to do anything - not until it effects their pockets - and even THEN the Irish mentality is to let them get away with it.
Yes, we are being our own worst enemies!

Biggins you have to start somewhere . . Only revolutions make radical changes (god damn, my writing index finger is cut so Im delayed in replying!) . . In the absence of that, you need to try to encourage small but significant changes . . You know that if public opinion favoured honesty and integrity, it would be reflected in the next election . .

What I propose is a long term strategy to a fundamental flaw in the way Irish People vote . . In scandanavia the people consider integrity a vital characteristic in their politician. This is not to say that there is no corruption in their political system, but its certainly a good starting point .

I dont actually believe that ALL the politicians we have are dodgy, I just think they are slaves to the system we vote by . . Politicians are judged by what they can get us, not really by their results . .

I know many think I am naieve, I just think that we deserve better and to get that we need to change our mentality . . I really believe we can achieve this, but think that there is so much negativity and feeling of no hope that people dont have the vision to try .

Biggins

aDeener wrote: »

bloody hell, would you maybe attempt to give it a rest for a week!

Would love to but given the crises/state our country is in, the job of running it is a full time job, politics don't stop just because one is tired of it nor shouldn't - but hang on... there is three constituencies not being represented and those in those areas are being let down too!
They too need representation if their local problems are to be highlighted and helped too.
...Or do we allow their rights to be shoved to one side "in the name of so called democracy?" - just as long as the rest is looked after?
...Don't they call that a form of discrimination too?

nicegirl

Biggins wrote: »

Brian Cowen tonight won a vote - by ONE vote to defeat the call for thousands to have their chance to regain an elected representative for their areas.

Rather than call now, not one not two - but three by-elections long over due (AND holding up a referendum on childrens rights!) so that he can cling on to power, he got the supposed independent (for the position he holds) Ceann Comhairle to have to save his ass tonight by voting with FF again. Meanwhile the disgusting Green Party is in cahoots with the FF mafia in this disgusting display of denying thousands in Ireland their chance to elect an official representatives to their Dail to stand up for them and their constituency.

I'm calling Brian Cowen, Fianna Fail and The Greens TRAITORS to Irish democracy.
They are TRAITORS to those that died in 1916 who stood firm for the idea that the Irish should have its own democracy.

I want to know from the rest of you - am I right to think this!

News Items:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/politics.html
and
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/taoiseach-running-scared-on-polls-2166302.html

I agree completely. Fianna Fail, and The greens are a disgrace, and have not done one positive step in anyway to sort the country out in the current climate. Democracy died in this country with the Nice Treaty, and The Lisbon Treaty where we were all made to "Vote again" until the government got the result they wanted.

starbelgrade

nicegirl wrote: »

I agree completely. Fianna Fail, and The greens are a disgrace, and have not done one positive step in anyway to sort the country out in the current climate. Democracy died in this country with the Nice Treaty, and The Lisbon Treaty where we were all made to "Vote again" until the government got the result they wanted.

Did you get 2 votes on the voting register, or just the one?

Morzadec

Biggins wrote: »

Brian Cowen tonight won a vote - by ONE vote to defeat the call for thousands to have their chance to regain an elected representative for their areas.

Rather than call now, not one not two - but three by-elections long over due (AND holding up a referendum on childrens rights!) so that he can cling on to power, he got the supposed independent (for the position he holds) Ceann Comhairle to have to save his ass tonight by voting with FF again. Meanwhile the disgusting Green Party is in cahoots with the FF mafia in this disgusting display of denying thousands in Ireland their chance to elect an official representatives to their Dail to stand up for them and their constituency.

I'm calling Brian Cowen, Fianna Fail and The Greens TRAITORS to Irish democracy.
They are TRAITORS to those that died in 1916 who stood firm for the idea that the Irish should have its own democracy.

I want to know from the rest of you - am I right to think this!

News Items:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/politics.html
and
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/taoiseach-running-scared-on-polls-2166302.html

Ugh I hate when anyone tries to use the 'blood of 1916' in their political persuasions. It's nothing more than embarrassing nationalistic propaganda to be fair.*

And as for that post about Hitler, Pol Pot etc... I can only echo starbelgrades comments.

That post is idiotic and hyperbolic to me, but potentially offensive to others (probably not many on boards.ie). How you can even begin to compare our situation and government to the names you mention is ridiculous at best...

*I'll just add a big disclaimer at the end here, that I am completely anti-FF and I agree in general with the sentiment, but not with the hyperbole.

Wait until the next election. It's not too far away. There will be a change don't worry. Cowan and his brownshirts won't be raiding your attic and sending your family to the gualag, no need to fret.

PomBear

The men who died in 1916 were Socialist Republicans, they also lid out in the proclamation alot of beliefs, there is none of this could apply to what FF have done, FF are fairly anti-proclaimation

Biggins

Morzadec wrote: »

...Wait until the next election. It's not too far away. There will be a change don't worry. Cowan and his brownshirts won't be raiding your attic and sending your family to the gualag, no need to fret.

I take your point but disagree.
Not allowing a proportion of our own people their democratic rights is unfair and downright undemocratic to them!
Others named have used similar excuses for similar actions in the past.
I'm not comparing the country to the physical conditions of those mentioned, only the reasoning is similar in many cases.

..Should we easily forget such things of 1916 for because they or their reasons are no longer relevant?

PomBear wrote: »

The men who died in 1916 were Socialist Republicans, they also lid out in the proclamation alot of beliefs, there is none of this could apply to what FF have done, FF are fairly anti-proclaimation

I would say they also did what they did so that all the Irish people could be represented by their own - many I suspect agree.
Its a damn disgrace that Brian Cowen and co won't allow this!
Its a matter of debate for maybe another thread?

nicegirl

starbelgrade wrote: »

Did you get 2 votes on the voting register, or just the one?

Ha! Just one vote Starbelgrade I agree with Biggins completely, and it is high time to get Brian Cowen, and the corrupt and useless government OUT.....time for an election.

lifeinireland

ff should change its name to frank sinnatra ( i did it my way)

nicegirl

OutlawPete wrote: »

TDs get paid too much money that is why they don't care about things that matter.

Of course there are traitors and and corrupt members of government, it's inevitable when you pay them a kings ransom annually.

They should get just above minimum wage as far as I am concerned.

Then they would make sure the country functioned well and fairly for those without the luxury of having deep pockets.

Well said OutlawPete.

Morzadec

Biggins wrote: »

I take your point but disagree.
Not allowing a proportion of our own people their democratic rights is unfair and downright undemocratic to them!
Others named have used similar excuses for similar action sin the past.
I'm not comparing the country to the physical conditions of those mentioned, only the reasoning is similar in many cases.

..Should we easily forget such things of 1916 for because they or their reasons are no longer relevant?

Okay while I see your point about the reasoning behind 'undemocratic' methods being somewhat comparable (although I still think it is hyberbolic in the extreme), I still think mentioning some of those names was taking things too far. I know some people who would honestly take offence to mentioning Hitler in the same breath as Brian Cowen.

As for 1916, well to be honest call me 'unpatriotic' if you will but F*uck it it bares no relevance to me today and if we want to move forward democratically in this country, it shouldn't to others too. I honestly think this is a big problem in Ireland, this clinging on to a nationalism that's no longer needed or useful.

Still people see FF as the nationalist or 'patriotic' party and vote for them based on outdated historic reasons. Why are FF and FG the 2 biggest parties in Ireland today when they share the same ideology? If it wasn't for a nearly 90 year old document they would be the same party. If we really want to see change we have to let go of this nationalistic, historic nonsense.

In short 1916 has d*ck all to do with our government today. We're an independent, democratic country and have been for some time. Let's not confuse our democracy now with a struggle for independence that occured long before any of our parents or even grandparents (in most cases) were born.

Honestly, to me it's completely irrelevant to politics in the here and now and is generally used to stir up 'patriotic' feelings in order to propagate a political message that bears no relevance to a bunch of people nearly 100 years ago.

That's why I hate to see it being used. As much as in the anti-Lisbon treaty posters last year as in this thread now.

An affront to democracy should be enough of a talking point or complaining point in itself, without being hyperbolic or having to use sentimental and 'patriotic' signifiers to support your point.

miss5

I do feel to a certain extent people felt threatened to vote yes to lisbon. Cowen
should have respected the original vote as it is supposed to be a democracy.
I can honestly say I don't think Fianna Fail have made any progressive decisions
in a long time, Honestly cannot see them getting voted for another term.

nicegirl

Well done to Biggins on his homepage, and the special comment. Very well said, and correct. Well done again.

eightyfish

Loaded questions, OP. Why not a simple yes/no?

Run_to_da_hills

All those that voted YES for Lisbon have no right to call Brian Cowen a traitor to those that died in 1916.

Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

Biggins

Again Morzadec, I disagree with you and here is why:

Those that stood in 1916 came from all walks of life, they came from various political backgrounds and organisations.
They came to see that the shackles of an unwanted power to be gone. They wanted to be rid of a power that the vast majority, the Irish people, did not want, they stood and some cases died so that ALL - not just a special majority - could be represented by someone more close to home. They wanted to be rid of a power that was making laws and twisting laws to suit a special category at many times. They wanted to be rid of a system that was being abused for the convenience of those in power... Is all this starting to be familiar or ring any bells?
Regardless of what was in their minds for a future political Ireland if they had of succeeded that day (and they did in the long run I feel), they stood up and did so that all could be given a fair chance for decent representation by their own.

Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it - and so it is today, we are where we are! Stuck with something unwanted, stuck with a power that is CLEARLY denying Irish people their fair representation, stuck with a power that will cling on for as long as possible BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY - even if that means dis-allowing the rights of Irish children in a referendum to be brought into law!

That to be is absolutely disgusting and those that are still teaching us history by making it in 1916 - are today turning in their graves!

Least we forget!

I'm sorry Morzadec you don't see that.

lugha

I am not sure if the 1916 folk are the best to hold up as cheerleaders for democracy. Surely a basic tenet of democracy is that if you claim to act on behalf of a people you should have the support of the people?

Anyway, with regards to your substantial point, I know it is fashionable to see every FF / Green misdeed as a mountain and not a mole but I think a little skullduggery in terms of optimizing the timing of by-elections (or general elections) is well within the scope of respectable political cut and thrust.
Three by-elections could well see the end of this government and perhaps it is 13 years of uninterrupted power, but I suspect that they really believe that the best interests of the country are served by them remaining in office.

Biggins

lugha wrote: »

...I suspect that they really believe that the best interests of the country are served by them remaining in office.

Yes, a lot of corrupt, self-interested political parties in countries past and present think that and use the same reason too.

Dorcha

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

All those that voted YES for Lisbon have no right to call Brian Cowen a traitor to those that died in 1916.

Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

Even though I didn't vote for it, I think you're being a bit simplistic. People were frightened into voting for it by the three main parties. Under such pressure, it's not surprising that people voted the way they did. They trusted those people.

Fluorescence

Necro-thread! :pac: The bye-elections have been sorted now, can we close this thread?

DrumSteve

Braiiiinnnnzzzzz