AGS and the Ethics of a 2nd job

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 05:29PM

ScubaDave wrote: »

Have you seen where the exhaust pipe is!?

I have now

Not when I posted it though. I was trying to be all serious and everything.

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 05:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you be a Garda for minimum wage? I feel they are among a small group of people who earn their money. Much as I hate to say it, having "Garda" on your vest is like wearing a reticule in some places.

No! Not what I am trying to say. It is not unskilled work. I just dont think they should be harming their public image by letting their representative group (I cant say union) make these statements.
The fastest way to alienate AGS is to adopt a me feiner attitude, as the public view of the Gardai is to "protect others".

coach23 · 27-04-2010 08:47PM

Jumpy wrote: »

No! Not what I am trying to say. It is not unskilled work. I just dont think they should be harming their public image by letting their representative group (I cant say union) make these statements.
The fastest way to alienate AGS is to adopt a me feiner attitude, as the public view of the Gardai is to "protect others".

And how about protecting those who protect you? and for us shouldnt we be allowed to fight our own corner and protect ourselves?

you also mentioned earlier about people picking out a small part of the bigger picture perhaps you should do the same? youve taken one motion from the whole conference and shot it down immediately there were many other motions.

we dont do sweet FA if you cant see us its because we are probably back in the station with a prisoner having done a bit of work probably arresting someone that cant look after themselves or hasnt got the morals to consider the people around them so someone called we appeared and did something about it and there isnt the manpower available to replace us on the beat so maybe look at the bigger picture and realise its resources that restrict us from being omnipotent not a work ethic

Jumpy · 27-04-2010 09:11PM

coach23 wrote: »

And how about protecting those who protect you? and for us shouldnt we be allowed to fight our own corner and protect ourselves?

you also mentioned earlier about people picking out a small part of the bigger picture perhaps you should do the same? youve taken one motion from the whole conference and shot it down immediately there were many other motions.

we dont do sweet FA if you cant see us its because we are probably back in the station with a prisoner having done a bit of work probably arresting someone that cant look after themselves or hasnt got the morals to consider the people around them so someone called we appeared and did something about it and there isnt the manpower available to replace us on the beat so maybe look at the bigger picture and realise its resources that restrict us from being omnipotent not a work ethic

Stop replying to me as one person. I am trying to tell you what the general public see the AGS doing. I wasnt at the conference, I dont know what was discussed. But I see the papers pulling out this pay more to avoid corruption line and I jump to conclusions. Get your representatives to avoid any mention of personal gain in individuals and you will have a much better chance at winning public support. The fellow who came out with the corruption statement didnt put much forethought into how that could be twisted though. Maybe he shouldnt talk at these things anymore. He gave the press far too much ammo.

coolmoose · 27-04-2010 11:02PM

Jumpy wrote: »

Stop replying to me as one person. I am trying to tell you what the general public see the AGS doing.

and since when do you represent the general public in ireland? You're giving YOUR opinion, so you should be addressed as an individual, not as a representative of the public...you don't represent my views on the AGS...in fact you have completely opposite views!

pah · 28-04-2010 06:42AM

TheNog wrote: »

I would prefer money being spent on a new car for my station.
I would prefer money being spent on a couple of more computers for my files.
I would prefer money being spent on recruiting more Gardai.
I would prefer money being spent on purpose built stations to increase safety for Gardai and prisoners.
I would prefer money being spent on proper and practical uniform.
I would prefer money being spent on continuous training.

These are just a few things I would like

This is exactly what the GRA ahould be fighting for!!

While I as an individual realise that if there's no money to pay me then I'd rather take my 5% cut than lose my job, I do think that paying of pension levy on non pensionable items should be changed.

28-04-2010 07:29AM

I wasn't going to reply here but the crap being spouted has forced me to do so.

First off, I don't think that gardai should be allowed take certain jobs such as security staff. As TheNog said, the amount of allegations made against door staff is very high and may lead to a conflict of interest in an investigation.

Secondly, why should any person take a paycut to fund their equipment? You are offered a job as a secetary but have to pay for your own computer, stamps for letters sent out and any phone call that you make.

Gardai are still using their OWN PRIVATE mobile phones to contact stations. Using their OWN PERSONAL computers for files as some stations will only have one or two work computers for this role.

And if you want to see an example of the work that we are doing read a paper, especially a local one, or go to the news websites. Plenty of examples of Gardai doing their jobs.

And as for your burglary, what do you want us to do when you arrive home in the evening after you left for work that morning? Throw up a massive cordon, stop and search everybody in the area for hours? Things don't work they way they show you on CSI! Prints will be lifted if there are any. Same for other bodily fluids. It takes weeks if not months for these to then be analysed. Remember the lab is responsible for the whole country.

Gardai follow up on crime reports using what time they can get. Some districts have cars going from call to call to call with barely a chance for a break in between.

And if you think the service you are getting is crap then contact your local Super or if you want your local TD to take up your case.

Shield · 28-04-2010 08:18AM

Lads I know that this thread has raised some issues that are contentious, but can we bring it back on topic from now on please? If you want to, you can start a thread on other ES related issues that you would like to discuss.

Thanks.

TheNog · 28-04-2010 09:58AM

Jumpy wrote: »

Then why is the only thing that is immediately visible to the public your representative organisation asking for more pay?

Therefore increasing the hostility to the private sector - In this case the Gardai.

Try and see it from an average Joe point of view rather than taking it like "everyone is against us"

Pay and conditions is on the agenda for every PS union. We do realise the country's finances are in the doghouse but why target the PS so much? We have already taken deductions in pay. As I said earlier I have taken approx 30% deduction. How much more am I expected to take before I dont have enough money to travel to work or meet my financial obligations?

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, as much as I like AGS, unless it's a serious burglary were hundreds of thousands of euro of stuff goes missing, I've never seen any 'dusting' or investigation done at a burglary. I've also never seen a thief found out at a later date, nor items returned (that's just in my own personal experience, and in fairness, such situations aren't just limited to Ireland).

In fairness all burglaries are investigated not only by the guard who arrived at your door but also the crime/detective unit. Dont in any way rely what is shown on a TV show as fact. Far too many people do that already.

Funny story I heard in the college:

One lecturer who was involved in setting up a Forensic Science course in a civilain college was asked on an open day: At what stage do we get our guns?

Jumpy wrote: »

No! Not what I am trying to say. It is not unskilled work. I just dont think they should be harming their public image by letting their representative group (I cant say union) make these statements.
The fastest way to alienate AGS is to adopt a me feiner attitude, as the public view of the Gardai is to "protect others".

So by your example people who were recently unemployed shouldnt highlight their financial difficulties in case it damages the Social Welfare image?

Come on seriously. Why shouldnt we highlight problems in our working conditions? In actual fact the problems in our working conditions has been highlighted for years on end which have included pay, radio systems, cars, stations etc etc etc. Most of these never reached much media attention except for the Blue Flu.

Jumpy wrote: »

Stop replying to me as one person. I am trying to tell you what the general public see the AGS doing. I wasnt at the conference, I dont know what was discussed. But I see the papers pulling out this pay more to avoid corruption line and I jump to conclusions. Get your representatives to avoid any mention of personal gain in individuals and you will have a much better chance at winning public support. The fellow who came out with the corruption statement didnt put much forethought into how that could be twisted though. Maybe he shouldnt talk at these things anymore. He gave the press far too much ammo.

One thing I have noticed on the threads about this possible corruption effect is people have not read the article properly. People are thinking corruption will rise but what was actually said is corruption could become prevalent by some members. That was then followed by examples in other countries where Police Forces who are on very low wages.

Another example would be - why do you think thefts have increased? Its not because the thieves, who have been there all along, need more money, Its because people who are in desperate need of money to help support their families and pay their bills.

Me and alot of my colleagues are struggling to get by on our pay. We are not immune to the difficulties that other people are suffering whether they be in the Public or Private sectors.

TheNog · 28-04-2010 10:01AM

psni wrote: »

Lads I know that this thread has raised some issues that are contentious, but can we bring it back on topic from now on please? If you want to, you can start a thread on other ES related issues that you would like to discuss.

Thanks.

sorry PSNI, only read your post after replying.

Anyways I personally have never favoured the second job theory becuase I have a family. My belief is one man, one job. Anything more than that may help your financial needs but doesnt help your family life.

Dermot Illogical · 29-04-2010 02:36PM

I don't see a problem with allowing members to work a second job, as long as it doesn't interfere with their regular duties. Obviously bouncer, barperson, security, pimp etc might cause problems, but a second job as a nuclear physicist isn't going to cause any difficulty. Was that one on the GRA wishlist?

MagicSean · 29-04-2010 02:51PM

RT66 wrote: »

I don't see a problem with allowing members to work a second job, as long as it doesn't interfere with their regular duties. Obviously bouncer, barperson, security, pimp etc might cause problems, but a second job as a nuclear physicist isn't going to cause any difficulty. Was that one on the GRA wishlist?

Don't you mean "Let them eat cake"?

Dermot Illogical · 29-04-2010 03:06PM

k_mac wrote: »

Don't you mean "Let them eat cake"?

Anyone else who does it is lauded as a hard worker, showing entrepreneurial spirit etc. What's the difference, as long as you pay your taxes? And the people who write for our glorious media outlets about "double-jobbing gardai/teachers/politicians" are very often working for multiple papers & magazines while authoring booker-prize winning tomes on the side. Double-jobbing double-standards..

MagicSean · 29-04-2010 04:26PM

RT66 wrote: »

Anyone else who does it is lauded as a hard worker, showing entrepreneurial spirit etc. What's the difference, as long as you pay your taxes? And the people who write for our glorious media outlets about "double-jobbing gardai/teachers/politicians" are very often working for multiple papers & magazines while authoring booker-prize winning tomes on the side. Double-jobbing double-standards..

Gardaí are already allowed work second jobs. However they are restricted in the type of jobs they can do. As far as I am aware there is no restriction on a Garda becoming a nuclear physicist. Unfortunately many of them would not be qualified in this work. The restrictions are on working in any profession that requires a licence, which now includes security, and any political job. Gardaí who have a trade can still work in that area. The problem is that a lot of gardaí are now joining straight from school and so they do not have qualifications or trades. Their Garda training makes them very qualified for security work but they cannot use these skills. They would also be very qualified as a taxi driver due to their knowledge of road traffic legislation and local knowledge as well as the extra driving qualifications some of them may have. But again they are not allowed use these skills. I think these are the main two problem areas.

Dermot Illogical · 30-04-2010 12:38AM

k_mac wrote: »

CHOPPED BIT.. The problem is that a lot of gardaí are now joining straight from school and so they do not have qualifications or trades. Their Garda training makes them very qualified for security work but they cannot use these skills. They would also be very qualified as a taxi driver due to their knowledge of road traffic legislation and local knowledge as well as the extra driving qualifications some of them may have. But again they are not allowed use these skills. I think these are the main two problem areas.

I believe the taxi driving thing may not be such a problem nowadays because there isn't garda involvement in licencing any more. Security is a no-no imho. I've done both jobs and there's too much potential for overlap.

30-04-2010 11:42AM

RT66 wrote: »

I believe the taxi driving thing may not be such a problem nowadays because there isn't garda involvement in licencing any more. Security is a no-no imho. I've done both jobs and there's too much potential for overlap.

Who do you think does the vetting? The passport office?

From the regulators website.

What are the steps involved in becoming a SPSV driver or vehicle licence holder?

Driver
To obtain an SPSV driver licence you must hold a current valid driving licence and must pass the SPSV Skills Development Test. You must then pay a licence fee of €250 to the Commission by phoning 1890 347 347. Afterwards, apply to your local Garda Station with your SPSV Skills Development Certificate, the receipt for payment of your licence fee, an up-to-date tax clearance certificate, your driving licence, a complete Form PSV 15 and two photographs. You will be put forward for Garda vetting and if you are deemed a suitable candidate your file will be sent to your PSV office. If all requirements are met you will then be issued with an SPSV driver licence and you will receive your ID card and smart card in the post. For more information see our step-by-step guide.

Dermot Illogical · 30-04-2010 03:00PM

foreign wrote: »

Who do you think does the vetting? The passport office?

From the regulators website.

My apologies. It's the vehicle component which isn't done by AGS anymore.
I still don't see an unsolveable problem with the driver licencing. Vetting is only there to weed out rapists, paedos, axe-murderers and the like. It's a formality. I think "most" gardai would get through it.

30-04-2010 03:03PM

RT66 wrote: »

It's a formality. I think "most" gardai would get through it.

But that is the problem, why should it be a formality?

02-05-2010 11:56PM

Could Garda members become driving instructors? Surely they'd qualify, what with the experience they'd have from driving/chasing/responding to emergencies/etc. as Gardaì?

That way they could make appointments whenever suits themselves and their clients, and I reckon having Garda driving experience could be a good selling point.

Theoretically, could they teach evening courses on Irish Law, Citizen's rights, etc.? Surely theyre'd be a few € to be made from that?

Along the same lines, Aren't some Gardaì very well experienced in photography, for photographing different things? (I've seen a few Gardaì with DSLRs here and there, usually at crashes/crime scenes). Could they teach photography?

Teaching again, hows about a Garda class on self-defence? Each station could have their own self-defence classes run by a small group of Gardaì based at that station. They could get some kind of FETAC/GARDA qualification system going. Could be used as a prep point kind of thing for people who want to potentially become members? (or as above, a Garda could do his own self-defence classes and such).

It sounds good to me actually. A Garda Level of Qualification. (Level 1, level 2, etc.). They could make them official Garda classes that any joe soap can join. Much like working you way up belt ranks in karate and the likes, except obviously the only subjects that could be used would have to be associated with AGS experiences. ie; self-defence, swimming, driving, first aid, etc. they could even do some general fitness classes.

They could also charge people to be a 'Garda for a day' type of thing. You pay a fee (which covers insuring you, etc.) and you get to don a Garda uniform and work alongside an actual Garda for a 6 or 8 hour period or something. There'd be no pre-requisites (except a character test or something to make sure you're not a scumbag trying to manipulate things to favor you somehow) so you wouldn't need to have the formal garda qualifications, nor spend three years before getting to be a traffic corps guy or anything.

I reckon a fair few people around the country would like to see what it's like to be a Garda and to be involved in the "front line". Of course you'd run a risk of being hurt or seeing some violent stuff, etc. but sure you'd know that going in.

AGS could also make a pretty penny by selling their name/logo etc. so we can get Model Garda cars, halloween outfits, etc. (pretty mcuh all the merchandise you can get with "POLICE" stamped on it, except in Garda livery for us Irish folk).

(this is all just off the top of my head, and im kinda tired, so they're probably crap ideas, but they seem good to me at the moment!)

Zambia · 03-05-2010 09:59PM

I don't see the issue with Gardai having a second job, as long as it creates no conflict of interest. Sadly a lot of work involving bars does. A lot of security work does not. Sitting in a locked Dunne's stores or the like from 19.00 - 06.00 the chances of conflict of interest are very low.

I also would disagree with the earlier statement about Gardai getting themselves into trouble financially. When I brought my first house I budgeted for my salary I actually made it look 10% better than it was knowing if I cut back I could make that 10% if need be. In the case of me being cut back to 70% or 80% of my applying salary I would be in real trouble. I doubt anyone who has a normal income would not.

angelfire9 · 06-05-2010 12:29AM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/garda.html

Should members of AGS be allowed to work as Taxi drivers, Door staff, Security staff to subvent recent deductions in their salary.

Apparently a lot of younger members in Dublin are having issues paying their mortgages.

In London, The Met, City of London Police and British Transport Police all receive London Weighting Allowance which can add up to £6,000 pa to basic salary of a P.C.

Should a similiar allowance be introduced here in Dublin for state Keyworkers.

Might be something for the Garda Inspectorate to look at in the future.

Any relevant comments are welcome...

My husband is a serving member of AGS on restricted duties due to work related injuries which means no overtime no night time which has made a nice dent in his pay packet
Then there came all the government deductions recently introduced and money became even more tight
THEN i lost my job
Now out of work almost 12 months and no sign of anything in the pipeline
Financially we would be better off if he took early retirement that is a fact
because his lump sum would allow us to pay off a massive chunk of our mortgage
We have difficulty paying bills every month
Nearly every month at least one bill is in arrears
We havent taken a foreign holiday in 5 years
We don't drive fancy cars i've a Fiesta and he has an ancient Avensis

As a member of AGS if we default on our mortgage he could lose his job
2nd jobs are a nice idea but he isn't able due to health issues and damn it i can't even find a job for myself
So for those that are whinging & complaining about AGS please realise that there are HUNDREDS of gardai out there that are suffering from recent pay cuts and bad working conditions and they still get up every morning and go to work because that is what they signed up to do!

kravmaga · 10-05-2010 06:10PM

Can you husband not make a claim against AGS/ The State if it was a work related injury?

Why dont you contact your local CWO to try and get SWA for your Mortgage?

pah · 10-05-2010 06:41PM

Yes he could but he'd be lucky to see it before 10 years.

angelfire9 · 11-05-2010 02:54PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Can you husband not make a claim against AGS/ The State if it was a work related injury?

Why dont you contact your local CWO to try and get SWA for your Mortgage?

Firstly done years ago provided the deposit for our first house

Second, not a hope in hell that we'd be entitled Supplementary Welfare Allowance is means tested on your gross income not your net

Anyway this is not a thread about me whinging about my financial affairs I was merely trying to illustrate the fact that

angelfire9 wrote: »

So for those that are whinging & complaining about AGS please realise that there are HUNDREDS of gardai out there that are suffering from recent pay cuts and bad working conditions and they still get up every morning and go to work because that is what they signed up to do!

Zambia · 11-05-2010 03:54PM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Firstly done years ago provided the deposit for our first house

This just looks as if you killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

ie You spent the money that was claimed for as loss of earning on a one time Purchase. As opposed to drip feeding it to supplement the loss of income. which you now require

However I am in possession of very little facts on your case but from what you have said that is what comes across. I apologise if I have gotten it wrong.

angelfire9 · 11-05-2010 04:12PM

Zambia232 wrote: »

This just looks as if you killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

ie You spent the money that was claimed for as loss of earning on a one time Purchase. As opposed to drip feeding it to supplement the loss of income. which you now require

However I am in possession of very little facts on your case but from what you have said that is what comes across. I apologise if I have gotten it wrong.

The amount of money recieved was in the region of €10k which was not a payment for loss of earnings but compensation for injuries recieved during the course of his duties to the best of my memory and this was over 10 years ago there was no loss of earnings because he was able to return to work (albeit on restricted duties)
And we are straying even further from the topic of this thread now

11-05-2010 04:13PM

Zambia232 wrote: »

This just looks as if you killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

ie You spent the money that was claimed for as loss of earning on a one time Purchase. As opposed to drip feeding it to supplement the loss of income. which you now require

However I am in possession of very little facts on your case but from what you have said that is what comes across. I apologise if I have gotten it wrong.

I'm sure like everybody else in the world they weren't expecting the scale of fúck up that happened to happen. There is nothing wrong in investing in a home and taking a mortgage based on an income that is laid out for you for years to come. Banks took our future earnings into account when giving us mortgages and still do.

Zambia · 12-05-2010 01:00AM

angelfire9 wrote: »

The amount of money recieved was in the region of €10k which was not a payment for loss of earnings but compensation for injuries recieved during the course of his duties to the best of my memory and this was over 10 years ago there was no loss of earnings because he was able to return to work (albeit on restricted duties)
And we are straying even further from the topic of this thread now

Of course thanks for clearing that up. I would rather ask it and be answered than assume.

kravmaga · 12-05-2010 05:35PM

angelfire9 wrote: »

Firstly done years ago provided the deposit for our first house

Second, not a hope in hell that we'd be entitled Supplementary Welfare Allowance is means tested on your gross income not your net

Anyway this is not a thread about me whinging about my financial affairs I was merely trying to illustrate the fact that

And so do thousands of private sector workers get up every morning who have suffered pay cuts recently. They are professional and fully committed to their jobs also.

AGS are nor unique in this regard.......

angelfire9 · 12-05-2010 09:01PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

And so do thousands of private sector workers get up every morning who have suffered pay cuts recently. They are professional and fully committed to their jobs also.

AGS are nor unique in this regard.......

Agreed
BUT
AGS are severely restricted with regards to a 2nd job which other private & public sector workers are not
Which is the point of this thread after all

AGS and the Ethics of a 2nd job

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