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Dole Fraudsters - Give Up Your Oul Sins!

2

Comments

  • #32
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    The government has chosen to bail out the bankers who are responsible for the financial collapse in this country and instead of heaping the blame where it belongs you decide to attack the people who are out of work, depressed and in many cases are forced to emigrate to find employment.

    You sir, are better off retiring from this debate, and the next time you start another stupid dole bashing thread I'll be back with the same points.

    Jesus H. You're like a f*cking broken record. I wouldn't mind, but you constantly refuse to accept the fact that none of what I have said has been an attack on anyone on the dole. All I have done is questioned the system & the means by which the money is distributed & as someone who has paid a significant amount of PRSI over the years, I think I have the right to do so.


  • #33
    Bazzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Targeting:



    Think you need to take heed of your signature :)

    I think an amnesty would be no harm at least it would give people the chance. if they had an amnesty and then up the penalties if caught it might help


  • #34
    --LOS--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭--LOS--


    I don't see how any decent person could be against a proposal like this, so the banks are getting a bail-out and so what, we should grab what we can and make things even worse?

    This doesn't target everyone on the dole, just the people taking advantage of the system, I don't know how successful it would be at enticing the dishonest claimers to come forward, but least it would eliminate any uncertainty in the punishment befitting each case, those choosing to remain dishonest can expect to be hit with the harshest punishment, no excuses.


  • #35
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    No, you are basically looking for fat kids on an island.

    Here have a read:

    Oireachtas Jint Committe hearing report on Social Welfare Fraud.

    http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/that-oireachtas-joint-committe-on-social-and-family-affairs-social-welfare-fraud/

    Staying on topic:

    Fraud isn't that prevalent to need an amnesty :rolleyes:

    Why don't you people do a bit of research before going around poking people with sticks.

    THE BOOGEYMAN ISN"T REAL!!!!!

    I'm in the highest tax bracket, how many of the dole bashers are in the top tax bracket here. Hands up please. Seeing as they are spending all your PRSI as you see it.

    Why not take up an attack against Tesco for example. Shower of **** them.


  • #36
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Bazzy wrote: »
    I think an amnesty would be no harm at least it would give people the chance. if they had an amnesty and then up the penalties if caught it might help
    Thats not a bad idea - introduce amnesty, announce an increase in penalties 6 months from now, and some people will be more willing to walk while they can.


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  • #37
    mox54
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭mox54


    The government is so useless,inept and corrupt that I wouldnt blame anyone for scamming the dole to get by a little easier......whatever helps..helps:rolleyes:


  • #38
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    No, you are basically looking for fat kids on an island.

    Here have a read:

    Oireachtas Jint Committe hearing report on Social Welfare Fraud.

    http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/that-oireachtas-joint-committe-on-social-and-family-affairs-social-welfare-fraud/

    Staying on topic:

    Fraud isn't that prevalent to need an amnesty :rolleyes:

    Why don't you people do a bit of research before going around poking people with sticks.

    THE BOOGEYMAN ISN"T REAL!!!!!

    I'm in the highest tax bracket, how many of the dole bashers are in the top tax bracket here. Hands up please. Seeing as they are spending all your PRSI as you see it.

    Why not take up an attack against Tesco for example. Shower of **** them.
    So you oppose amnesty because you don't believe theres anyone (or enough people) frauding the Dole?

    Im sorry, whats 3% of €21.3 Billion? €639,000,000? Ah sure, let them have it. That cant Run a Hospital or anything. Oh wait, it could probably run 600.


  • #39
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    No, you are basically looking for fat kids on an island.

    Oireachtas Jint Committe hearing report on Social Welfare Fraud.

    http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/that-oireachtas-joint-committe-on-social-and-family-affairs-social-welfare-fraud/

    Staying on topic:

    Fraud isn't that prevalent to need an amnesty :rolleyes:

    Why don't you people do a bit of research before going around poking people with sticks.

    From the article you quoted...
    Almost €476 million in social welfare payments was saved through fraud control measures in 2008, an increase of €29 million on the previous year. This year the target is over €600 million.

    Hardly an insignificant figure. One might even say that it is enough to feed an island full of fat kids. And as an amnesty would cost relatively very little - without the need to criminalise people - it could also be very effective.

    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I'm in the highest tax bracket, how many of the dole bashers are in the top tax bracket here. Hands up please. Seeing as they are spending all your PRSI as you see it.

    I'm very happy for you, but I seriously doubt that anyone gives a f*ck what you are earning. Besides that, not everyone feels the need to boast about their earnings before making a comment on social welfare fraud, nor is paying the top rate of tax a pre-requisite for doing so.

    That is like saying that anyone who has never played professional football cannot have a valid opinion about a Premiership match.

    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Why not take up an attack against Tesco for example. Shower of **** them.

    Why not start a thread about Tesco, if you feel that strongly about it? Tesco has no relevance to this thread.


  • #40
    Mister men
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Mister men


    Get a job ya dirty bum.


  • #41
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Overheal wrote: »
    So you oppose amnesty because you don't believe theres anyone (or enough people) frauding the Dole?

    Im sorry, whats 3% of €21.3 Billion? €639,000,000? Ah sure, let them have it. That cant Run a Hospital or anything. Oh wait, it could probably run 600.

    It could run 600 hospitals in America maybe ;) Not here, where there happens to be something of a health system, however shít that may be :P


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  • #42
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Jaycee Lively Tummy wrote: »
    It could run 600 hospitals in America maybe ;) Not here, where there happens to be something of a health system, however shít that may be :P
    The figure is supposed from Biggin's thread, where Crumlin was on the verge of being closed over an inability to find a relatively mere €10m in the Budget.


  • #43
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    I knew you would be too lazy to read the article in it's entirerity.

    *sigh*
    Deputy Olwyn Enright: What is the baseline for the level of fraud?
    Ms Niamh O’Donoghue: I think it is very difficult to give an absolute as to the level of fraud.On the evidence we have assembled through those surveys it is less than 1% of expenditure. They are not all attributable to fraud. Some of them are attributable to customer or departmental error. However, the levels of fraud are generally quite low, except in one or two particular circumstances
    Deputy Róisín Shortall: What are those one or two?
    Ms Niamh O’Donoghue: Regarding one-parent families, cohabitation was mentioned earlier. Some people are working and claiming jobseeker’s allowance
    Deputy Róisín Shortall: To clarify the issue of cross-Border fraud, about which we heard a great deal, is it correct that six vehicles were stopped in one operation and nine vehicles in another?

    Mr. Eoin Ó Broin: No, we had six checkpoints in the north west region with the Garda and a further nine in the north east.

    Deputy Róisín Shortall: How many people did officials see in the six operations?

    Mr. Eoin Ó Broin: We interviewed 169 people in the north west where six checkpoints were held and 194 in the north east where nine checkpoints were carried out.

    Deputy Róisín Shortall: Does Mr. Ó Broin have information on the outcomes of the interviews?

    Mr. Eoin Ó Broin: Of the 169 people in question, we identified 106 cases for follow-up action.

    Deputy Róisín Shortall: What was the outcome of this action?

    Mr. Eoin Ó Broin: While the outcomes are ongoing, in four of the cases we identified people were working and signing.

    Deputy Róisín Shortall: Four out of 363 cases.

    Mr. Eoin Ó Broin: Yes.

    Deputy Róisín Shortall: Is that not an exceptionally low figure?

    This is what happens when we get people like you
    And to real-life cases…

    Deputy Seymour Crawford: I would like to give Ms O’Donoghue an example of a specific case. I have already mentioned it on the record of the House. I refer to a case in which an inspector could not understand how an old age pensioner who had returned from England five years previously was able to survive on the pension he was receiving. The inspector decided that the person in question must have been doing something else. When the inspector asked the man how he feeds himself, the man said he sometimes goes up to his brother’s farm to work, and might get his dinner there. When the review of the man’s circumstances was completed, the man learned that the inspector had decided he was getting €100 a week from his brother for working on the farm and that his dinner was classified as being worth €50 a week. As a result, he was not entitled to any social welfare benefit. When I visited the farm in question, I noted that the wife of the man’s brother was an invalid and was not fit to cook any dinner or anything else. I also learned that the man’s brother was giving him nothing. As far as I am concerned, the inspector’s approach was totally over the top and cannot be justified.

    Welfare fraud does is exist, and should be stamped out. There are measures being put into place all the time to tighten things.

    That's not what this thread is about. It's about you lot, most likely paying a tiny amount of PRSI having a rant at the most vunerable and poorest in our society. It sickens me.

    I hope you never lose your jobs because this type is ignorance and prejudice is sadly prevalent.
    Im sorry, whats 3% of €21.3 Billion? €639,000,000? Ah sure, let them have it. That cant Run a Hospital or anything. Oh wait, it could probably run 600.

    Where did you pull these figures from please?


  • #44
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Overheal wrote: »
    The figure is supposed from Biggin's thread, where Crumlin was on the verge of being closed over an inability to find a relatively mere €10m in the Budget.

    That was a special ward in a hospital, not the whole structure. Was it not?


  • #45
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I knew you would be too lazy to read the article in it's entirerity.

    *sigh*

    Welfare fraud does is exist, and should be stamped out. There are measures being put into place all the time to tighten things.

    That's not what this thread is about. It's about you lot, most likely paying a tiny amount of PRSI having a rant at the most vunerable and poorest in our society. It sickens me.

    Not only did I read the entire article, but I also saw the question session between Deputy Róisín Shortall & Mr. Ó Broin on Oireachtas Report.

    We both agree that welfare fraud should be stamped out. My point in starting this thread was simply to highlight a news article from today's paper which suggested a low-cost means of reducing fraud without criminalising fraudsters.

    The same thing happened with the weapons amnesty in 2006 to some degree of success - 368 illegally held weapons were surrendered, at no cost to either the taxpayer or those who had previously held the weapons illegally. Now, I am not comparing the two amnesties for any other reson than they would work in the same way - If the same thing happened with a dole fraud amnesty, we would have nothing to lose & something to gain - no matter how small the figures.

    As for your last comment, which I have highlighted - it is blatantly obvious from this that for some unknown reason, you want to take this debate to a personal level & I will not dignify that with a response.


  • #46
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I knew you would be too lazy to read the article in it's entirerity.

    *sigh*
    Well you see Cog, thats why you cant just fire off links in Politics for instance: it doesnt constitute a discussion.

    Thank you for pulling the Relevant material.
    This is what happens when we get people like you
    You don't even know me. You're trying to demonize me and others here, tbh. Ironic due to your Boogeyman remark, earlier.
    Welfare fraud does is exist, and should be stamped out. There are measures being put into place all the time to tighten things.

    That's not what this thread is about. It's about you lot, most likely paying a tiny amount of PRSI having a rant at the most vunerable and poorest in our society. It sickens me.

    No, this thread is about Stamping Out Fraud, and New Measures being put into place to Tighten Things. You're the only one turning it into some Crusade, trying to insinuate that I get a hard-on from putting little old ladies out on the road.
    I hope you never lose your jobs because this type is ignorance and prejudice is sadly prevalent.
    Ditto.
    Where did you pull these figures from please?
    Your link, to be fair: according to which The Dole budget was €21.3 billion. The Original Post of this thread quotes 3% Fraud. €10m came from the looming closure of the Crumlin Children's Ward over the sum of approximately €10m, according to discussion gleaned from Biggins' thread 6 months ago. As Iamxavier points out I have exaggerated how far €10m can be stretched; but I would like to maintain the point that rather than satisfy Dole fraud the money can be served to other means; for example, Healthcare.


  • #47
    Bazzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    It's about you lot, most likely paying a tiny amount of PRSI having a rant at the most vunerable and poorest in our society. It sickens me.

    I am in the higher tax bracket and pay a substantial amount of PRSI and so does my employer.

    I would never tar anyone with the brush that you just have.

    I think you should jump back onto your high horse and gallop out of here bucko.

    The amnesty would work to a certain degree and if the penalties were raised higher

    EG pay the money back and perform say community service filling pot holes or cleaning up graffiti or painting fences people would soon cop on and the government might save a few bob in the process not having to give it to councils.


  • #48
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    One idea that would be easy enough to implement, and very low cost is to cut off all those unemployed for a period of 5 years or more. Or even three years or more, if some people have a problem with 5 years. To implement it it could be automatic through the computerised system they have. Easy, and low cost.

    Can't imagine how anyone (besides the lazy bums unemployed long term) would have a problem with this. It's a blanket cut off and social welfare inspectors don't have to worry about possible intimidation from investigating the cases.

    Anyone see any problems with this? Wonder how much money this'd save.

    Edit: I worked out around how much this might save in SW. The statistics I could get I think were only for the first half of 2009 but there were 25,245 in the country unemployed for 3 years or more. And assuming each is getting €196 a week, this solution would save nearly €5 million per week, or more than €257 million in a year.


  • #49
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    If you can't beat em.......


    *Grabs pitchfork*

    Okay I'll see you ouside the dole queue on Kevin St. Lets hurl abuse at the junkies and tell them to get a job.


  • #50
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    If you can't beat em.......


    *Grabs pitchfork*

    Okay I'll see you ouside the dole queue on Kevin St. Lets hurl abuse at the junkies and tell them to get a job.
    Its almost completely humourless how poorly you seem to have grasped the point.


  • #51
    Bazzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    If you can't beat em.......


    *Grabs pitchfork*

    Okay I'll see you ouside the dole queue on Kevin St. Lets hurl abuse at the junkies and tell them to get a job.

    I don't think they have any stables on kevin street for prsi tax bracket high horses

    Your probably best going back up your ivory tower and paying lots of tax and prsi and galloping round on your high horse


    There are so many reasons why an amnesty would work even if it only stopped one person claiming illegaly an amnesty would cost nothing

    I mean ireland is the country where criminals can effectivly launder money via criminal assets bureau and people get worked up over the dole !


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  • #52
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭up for anything


    stupidusername wrote: »

    Anyone see any problems with this?

    Yes.


  • #53
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    If you can't beat em.......


    *Grabs pitchfork*

    Okay I'll see you ouside the dole queue on Kevin St. Lets hurl abuse at the junkies and tell them to get a job.


    jesus... youve made maybe 15 posts on this thread and not one has contributed to what the thread is about. you dragged it away from whats an interesting topic to you having a go at anyone... and your a feckin moderator???:rolleyes:


  • #54
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    if a millionaire is also receiving 70000 euros and expenses yearly :cool:as a senate salary for playing no real role in public administration, is that a form of social welfare? and would they be allowed come clean and give it back..


  • #55
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    moonpurple wrote: »
    if a millionaire is also receiving 70000 euros and expenses yearly :cool:as a senate salary for playing no real role in public administration, is that a form of social welfare? and would they be allowed come clean and give it back..

    They're not breaking the law, so therefore have nothing to "come clean" about.


  • #56
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    up for anything wrote: »
    Yes.

    Well, would you like to share what you think it is?


  • #57
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    neil_hosey wrote: »
    jesus... youve made maybe 15 posts on this thread and not one has contributed to what the thread is about. you dragged it away from whats an interesting topic to you having a go at anyone... and your a feckin moderator???:rolleyes:
    of taxation.


  • #58
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    I guess it would be a start but much more is needed. Now I'm not a big city lawyer *loud gasps*

    but I think what should be done is elimated anybody with criminal records that contain 2 or more violations. Like wise no housing for these people, I know the bleeding hearts will say that will just make them even more likely to steal and we'd just be paying in other ways i.e. increase in robberies and costs for running prisons but it's what I would do.

    I think College grants should be lowered and not for this year coming but the following year the max salary a family can make should be lowered to match against drop in rent and living costs.

    illegal immigration needs to be dealt with swiftly, it is beyond a joke anymore, I'm all for cultural diversity but not when it comes at the expense of the country. There should be a cap on the number of people allowed and there should be a 0 tolerance policy equal to America and Australia. No backlog of people waiting to be deported awaiting appeals.

    Also Those claiming the dole for longer than 6 months should be doing community service. I also liked the Fine Gael idea of Boot Camps for juveniles. I think underage drinking needs to be dealt with and boot camps at weekend would be a good deterrent and might fix one or two troubled teens. I know alot on here would have drank at 15+ and would think it's too extreme but you also knew at 15 when you were drinking it was against the law and you anyone that's caught should face the consequences instead of it always going back on embarassing their parents or fining the place/person that sold them or gave them booze

    I have spoken...They say you get more right wing as you get older!


  • #59
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I guess it would be a start but much more is needed. Now I'm not a big city lawyer *loud gasps*

    but I think what should be done is elimated anybody with criminal records that contain 2 or more violations. Like wise no housing for these people, I know the bleeding hearts will say that will just make them even more likely to steal and we'd just be paying in other ways i.e. increase in robberies and costs for running prisons but it's what I would do.

    But why would you do it, if you acknowledge that it would increase crime. I don't want to give a cent to people who are obviously criminals... but what I do want is that people who do earn their money don't have to live in fear of it being robbed. So although giving them money to support themselves may not feel good, it's necessary.

    Edit - actually, I should have read the whole of your post before replying. Then I would have realised you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and wouldn't have bothered to attempt to engage with you.


  • #60
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Mark200 wrote: »
    But why would you do it, if you acknowledge that it would increase crime. I don't want to give a cent to people who are obviously criminals... but what I do want is that people who do earn their money don't have to live in fear of it being robbed. So although giving them money to support themselves may not feel good, it's necessary.

    I don't know. How much of a detterent is it at presence, Unfortunately pulling the dole from them is the only way to find out. I think if they are that way inclined (willing to steal) They probably already do regardless of social welfare. Put them in jail and let them work in a chain gang like in the states. Only we'd need Gardai to have a bit of backbone there.


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  • #61
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I don't know. How much of a detterent is it at presence, Unfortunately pulling the dole from them is the only way to find out. I think if they are that way inclined (willing to steal) They probably already do regardless of social welfare. Put them in jail and let them work in a chain gang like in the states. Only we'd need Gardai to have a bit of backbone there.

    People don't steal as a hobby on the side. They steal because they have to.


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