Europe's Web of Debt

pickarooney · 02-05-2010 10:57PM

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 11:15PM

Einhard wrote: »

Yes and the equity can be sold when the markets pick up and the share price rises. Unless you think that none of the Irish banks currently operating have any future?

If that future is us breaking even in two decades time, its not doing us any good. It would be much better if the people who lent the banks the money in the first place took responsibility for their bad decisions, as is standard practice in these situatons, wouldn't you agree?

Einhard · 02-05-2010 11:23PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It would be much better if the people who lent the banks the money in the first place took responsibility for their bad decisions, as is standard practice in these situatons, wouldn't you agree?

Undoubtedly. But I'm dealing with things as they stand right now. And the fact that some of our debt at least doesn't represent money lost forever is a positive thing, and should be acknowledged.

Amhran Nua · 02-05-2010 11:30PM

Einhard wrote: »

And the fact that some of our debt at least doesn't represent money lost forever is a positive thing

First of all, you hope it doesn't represent money lost forever, this Greek situation could very easily spiral out of control. Second of all, I find no positives in that debt which may or may not be reclaimed was ever the taxpayers' problem in the first place, when it really shouldn't have been.

I don't care in the slightest if Lenihan wants to gamble his life savings on shares in banks which have already fallen to less than a tenth of what they were a few years ago, but I have real problems with him gambling everyone else's hard earned money. The fact that we even have those shares mean something has gone badly wrong, to whit the banks couldn't repay what they owed.

So lets just take the reality of the situation for what it is, good moeny thrown after bad to spare the blushes of politicians who inherited their seats until they leave office, at which point the bill will come due.

Einhard · 02-05-2010 11:40PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

First of all, you hope it doesn't represent money lost forever, this Greek situation could very easily spiral out of control. Second of all, I find no positives in that debt which may or may not be reclaimed was ever the taxpayers' problem in the first place, when it really shouldn't have been.

I don't care in the slightest if Lenihan wants to gamble his life savings on shares in banks which have already fallen to less than a tenth of what they were a few years ago, but I have real problems with him gambling everyone else's hard earned money. The fact that we even have those shares mean something has gone badly wrong, to whit the banks couldn't repay what they owed.

So lets just take the reality of the situation for what it is, good moeny thrown after bad to spare the blushes of politicians who inherited their seats until they leave office, at which point the bill will come due.

I think your comments are more informed by ideology than by an objective appraisal of the facts. The reality is that we are likely to see a return on some of the money invested in the banks. This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed. i agree with you about the government etc, but anger towards them shouldn't mean that every positive is dismissed out of hand.

OPENROAD · 02-05-2010 11:44PM

Einhard wrote: »

I think your comments are more informed by ideology than by an objective appraisal of the facts. The reality is that we are likely to see a return on some of the money invested in the banks. This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed. i agree with you about the government etc, but anger towards them shouldn't mean that every positive is dismissed out of hand.

How does that help us now though?

kuntboy · 02-05-2010 11:45PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

the ny times and getting their numbers wrong shocker

actually irelands gross external debt stands at €1.6 trillion and falling

but we are not alone, uk gross external debt is about $10 trillion and US total is about $55 trillion (not the £1b and $12b you normally see banded about)

interestingly little luxembourg more owe external debt than we do, basically everyone is f**ked

Please explain.
Also are pension obligations included in our debt?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 02-05-2010 11:50PM

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

Great band...

Einhard · 02-05-2010 11:50PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

How does that help us now though?

I didn't say it helped us now. The profit of something doesn't have to be immediately realised for it to be deemed a postove thing. I won't see the benefit of my pension for another 40 years but surely you wouldn't similarly dismiss pensions?

OPENROAD · 03-05-2010 12:14AM

Einhard wrote: »

I didn't say it helped us now. The profit of something doesn't have to be immediately realised for it to be deemed a postove thing. I won't see the benefit of my pension for another 40 years but surely you wouldn't similarly dismiss pensions?

True and we may well get a return I know you are trying to take the positives out of it but the reality is that any return will be in the long term, and so doesn't help us now, thats all I'm saying.

Amhran Nua · 03-05-2010 01:09AM

Einhard wrote: »

This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed.

Thats like saying we should thank burglars for breaking the windows, so we can get new windows. Its called the broken window fallacy, in fact. This is economics 101, your unwillingness to understand even that much says quite a lot about your own ideology. And while we're on the subject, have you any idea what twenty years of inflation will do to any "gains" we might make?

Anita Blow · 03-05-2010 01:25AM

I've seen this number before in another NYT article a while ago.

IIRC, it includes the total debt of all firms/people in the country. Including non-Irish owned banks and businesses. We have the IFSC which houses quite a lot of foreign banks/firms so their debt is included whereas if they were to default on their debt, it wouldn't have any huge impact on Ireland beyond job losses etc. No huge cost to the exchequer or anything. This is the NYT with it's Anti-European slant trying to get it's readers with a Wow-factor who won't understand how that debt adds up

Einhard · 03-05-2010 01:31AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

This is economics 101, your unwillingness to understand even that much says quite a lot about your own ideology.

Believing that things are bad enough without us deliberately dismissing any potential positives is an ideology? Which one exactly?

There's a good possibility that we'll recoup some of the money that we invested in the banks, and that will bring down our debt somewhat. Self flagellation is all well and good, but at a certain point it becomes a bit tiresome.

And while we're on the subject, have you any idea what twenty years of inflation will do to any "gains" we might make?

Umm the whole point of investing in stock rather than merely saving your money is to beat inflation. Did you miss that class in Economy 101?

dsmythy · 03-05-2010 01:33AM

Jaysus, where's The Viper when you need him?

Absurdum · 03-05-2010 01:43AM

that web looks suspiciously like an elaborate Satanic symbol

0o0o0o0o0o0o0

partyatmygaff · 03-05-2010 01:55AM

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

He wears the coolest looking sunglasses known to man aswell.

I've also heard he's quite crafty with accounting especially when it comes to tax so he may do well in helping Europe's money problems

Amhran Nua · 03-05-2010 11:34AM

Einhard wrote: »

Believing that things are bad enough without us deliberately dismissing any potential positives is an ideology? Which one exactly?

The one that tries to fig leaf this shambles of a government by pointing out that at least the deck chairs on the titanic float.

Still, I guess some people would rather sit there raising a glass to their shiny new window, than go after the burglars.

Einhard wrote: »

There's a good possibility that we'll recoup some of the money that we invested in the banks, and that will bring down our debt somewhat. Self flagellation is all well and good, but at a certain point it becomes a bit tiresome.

Unless you have a crystal ball, you have no idea which way bank shares will go. The banks are already mostly nationalised.

Einhard wrote: »

Umm the whole point of investing in stock rather than merely saving your money is to beat inflation. Did you miss that class in Economy 101?

Thats investment 101, and it goes more like "your investment may go up or down". The whole point of investing in stocks or in anything is to make a profit. Don't think that's the primary motivating factor for the government however.

Abrasax · 03-05-2010 12:47PM

This guy can help us out of the Web.
Seems he has some experience in this type of matter.

auldwan · 04-05-2010 01:18PM

Absurdum wrote: »

that web looks suspiciously like an elaborate Satanic symbol

0o0o0o0o0o0o0

That would be an inverted pentagram (which isn't exclusively Satanic either). Had to be said.

Europe's Web of Debt

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