Europe's Web of Debt

auldwan

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

segaBOY

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

Sh!ts in pants

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

mikom

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

A map showing the debt between Europe's top 5 indebted countries (we're one of them of course). Interesting stuff.

Greece
Spain
Italy
Portugal
Ireland?


♫ One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song? ♫

Yeah... where's my sunshine bitch.

segaBOY

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

Banks and Governments borrow from eachother.

El Weirdo

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm no economist, but I'm guessing it's a little bit more than that...

pablomakaveli

Its depressing when you see how badly in debt this country is.:(

Kasabian

Amira Inexpensive Mineralogist wrote: »

It would be less of a web if they done the math... Italy owes Spain €47, Spain owes Italy €31... Doesn't make sense to me.

€78 , fcuk is that all , i'll give it to them

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

segaBOY wrote: »

Banks and Governments borrow from eachother.

Ahhhh, I see... Cheers

El Weirdo wrote: »

I'm no economist, but I'm guessing it's a little bit more than that...

Sorry, could have been €49 :P

HalloweenJack

How does Ireland owe more than countries that are about twice the size of it (population wise)?

Also, if Greece had to be bailed out, surely we're in a deeper mess as we have a smaller income tax base.

Amhran Nua

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much. Also, when did the UK start getting mentioned in the same sentence as Germany and France? If there is one country thats worse off than us its them, just nobody cares much since they aren't in the Eurozone.

SugarHigh

To get rid of some of the money we owe we should tell Britain to feck that they ain't getting a penny because were still bitter and we should tell Germany to feck because they will be too scared to do anything to us in case the world starts to think there gone back to being nazi's.

Then I'm just an idiot who knows nothing about this and was just drawn in by the colourful graph.

SugarHigh

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much.

If I get a loan for €20,000 to buy a car then that is how much I am in debt to the bank but my overall debt isn't really €20,000 because the car is still worth something.

The rest of your post wasn't worth replying to.

Mrmoe

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion, which sounds about right, not ten times as much. Also, when did the UK start getting mentioned in the same sentence as Germany and France? If there is one country thats worse off than us its them, just nobody cares much since they aren't in the Eurozone.

I'd guess that it could be the money that is owed privately as well, not just by the state. Potentially private debt could be much higher than national debt.

Amhran Nua

Mrmoe wrote: »

I'd guess that it could be the money that is owed privately as well, not just by the state. Potentially private debt could be much higher than national debt.

No, Irish banks hold just over €100 billion in retail mortgages, and the attached article doesn't provide any illumination either. Has AH just been trolled by the NYT?

galwayrush

No need to worry, apparently the fundementals of our eceomony are sound..........:rolleyes:

Shanegggg

I think the scariest part is when divide that figure by population. Compared to all the other countries we're well worse off per head!

Expect to see more stealth taxes etc. for years to come!

Amhran Nua

Shanegggg wrote: »

I think the scariest part is when divide that figure by population.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, the figures are bollocks.

auldwan

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where did they get those figures? Its all over the place, according to the national debt clock we're at just over €80 billion

The article says "Source: Bank for International Settlements". Maybe the debt clock ran out of digits (or overflowed)

Amhran Nua

auldwan wrote: »

The article says "Source: Bank for International Settlements". Maybe the debt clock ran out of digits (or overflowed)

Doubt it, from the National Treasury Management Agency:

At end December 2009 the National Debt of Ireland was 75.2 billion euro.

I'd think the NTMA might notice €700 billion odd of a difference. Unless the BIS is counting whatever is going through the IFSC at the minute, which has nothing to do with Ireland.

rainbowtrout

Doesn't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 867 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

Amhran Nua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Don't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 864 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

Ireland uses the short scale, 1000 million = 1 billion, same as the US, which still puts it out by a factor of 100. I'd seriously like to know where they came up with this inflammatory nonsense.

Mark200

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Doesn't the US have a different definition of billion to Europeans?

US: 10^9 = 1 billion
Europe: 10^12 = 1 billion

So stick in a decimal and 867 becomes 86.7 which isn't too far off where we are

You put the decimal in the wrong place. You've to move it over 3 places if it's off by 1000, which would be .867....

We've been using the same definition of billion as the US for years.

rainbowtrout

Mark200 wrote: »

You put the decimal in the wrong place. You've to move it over 3 places if it's off by 1000, which would be .867....

We've been using the same definition of billion as the US for years.

Oh damn, i was starting to see double with all the 0s

I don't normally have to deal with billions in everyday life

Einhard

auldwan wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html?ref=global

Looks like an outline of a few starships gathering around a space dock to me.

Struggles to contain his inner nerd...

Ireland's debt is actually relatively low. And we have some chance of seeing a return on a proportion of the money borrowed. So the picture isn't as bleak as the figures might suggest.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

And is made up of some debt on which we have some chance of seeing a return.

Nope, NAMA isn't counted as part of the national debt.

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, NAMA isn't counted as part of the national debt.

Yeah but the bank bailouts are. And we're likely to realise some form of return on the monies invested into BofI and AIB at least.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

Yeah but the bank bailouts are. And we're likely to realise some form of return on the monies invested into BofI and AIB at least.

And if they can't pay, we get equity, as we already have, which is what should have been done with senior bondholders in the first place. There's no upside here...

rossie1977

the ny times and getting their numbers wrong shocker

actually irelands gross external debt stands at €1.6 trillion and falling

but we are not alone, uk gross external debt is about $10 trillion and US total is about $55 trillion (not the £1t and $12t you normally see banded about)

interestingly little luxembourg owe more external debt than we do, basically everyone is f**ked

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And if they can't pay, we get equity, as we already have, which is what should have been done with senior bondholders in the first place. There's no upside here...

Yes and the equity can be sold when the markets pick up and the share price rises. Unless you think that none of the Irish banks currently operating have any future? Also, I seem to remember a report last week that BofI would be paying pack half a billion to the exchequer in the short term. Surely that counts as a positive?

I don't mean to suggest that everything is rosy, but neither do I think we should ignore any and every positive, and accentuate every possible negative.

Mike 1972

SugarHigh wrote: »

Then I'm just an idiot who knows nothing about this and was just drawn in by the colourful graph.

That the sort of refreshing honesty that we could do with more of around here.

pickarooney

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

Yes and the equity can be sold when the markets pick up and the share price rises. Unless you think that none of the Irish banks currently operating have any future?

If that future is us breaking even in two decades time, its not doing us any good. It would be much better if the people who lent the banks the money in the first place took responsibility for their bad decisions, as is standard practice in these situatons, wouldn't you agree?

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It would be much better if the people who lent the banks the money in the first place took responsibility for their bad decisions, as is standard practice in these situatons, wouldn't you agree?

Undoubtedly. But I'm dealing with things as they stand right now. And the fact that some of our debt at least doesn't represent money lost forever is a positive thing, and should be acknowledged.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

And the fact that some of our debt at least doesn't represent money lost forever is a positive thing

First of all, you hope it doesn't represent money lost forever, this Greek situation could very easily spiral out of control. Second of all, I find no positives in that debt which may or may not be reclaimed was ever the taxpayers' problem in the first place, when it really shouldn't have been.

I don't care in the slightest if Lenihan wants to gamble his life savings on shares in banks which have already fallen to less than a tenth of what they were a few years ago, but I have real problems with him gambling everyone else's hard earned money. The fact that we even have those shares mean something has gone badly wrong, to whit the banks couldn't repay what they owed.

So lets just take the reality of the situation for what it is, good moeny thrown after bad to spare the blushes of politicians who inherited their seats until they leave office, at which point the bill will come due.

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

First of all, you hope it doesn't represent money lost forever, this Greek situation could very easily spiral out of control. Second of all, I find no positives in that debt which may or may not be reclaimed was ever the taxpayers' problem in the first place, when it really shouldn't have been.

I don't care in the slightest if Lenihan wants to gamble his life savings on shares in banks which have already fallen to less than a tenth of what they were a few years ago, but I have real problems with him gambling everyone else's hard earned money. The fact that we even have those shares mean something has gone badly wrong, to whit the banks couldn't repay what they owed.

So lets just take the reality of the situation for what it is, good moeny thrown after bad to spare the blushes of politicians who inherited their seats until they leave office, at which point the bill will come due.

I think your comments are more informed by ideology than by an objective appraisal of the facts. The reality is that we are likely to see a return on some of the money invested in the banks. This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed. i agree with you about the government etc, but anger towards them shouldn't mean that every positive is dismissed out of hand.

OPENROAD

Einhard wrote: »

I think your comments are more informed by ideology than by an objective appraisal of the facts. The reality is that we are likely to see a return on some of the money invested in the banks. This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed. i agree with you about the government etc, but anger towards them shouldn't mean that every positive is dismissed out of hand.

How does that help us now though?

kuntboy

rossie1977 wrote: »

the ny times and getting their numbers wrong shocker

actually irelands gross external debt stands at €1.6 trillion and falling

but we are not alone, uk gross external debt is about $10 trillion and US total is about $55 trillion (not the £1b and $12b you normally see banded about)

interestingly little luxembourg more owe external debt than we do, basically everyone is f**ked

Please explain.
Also are pension obligations included in our debt?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

Great band...

Einhard

OPENROAD wrote: »

How does that help us now though?

I didn't say it helped us now. The profit of something doesn't have to be immediately realised for it to be deemed a postove thing. I won't see the benefit of my pension for another 40 years but surely you wouldn't similarly dismiss pensions?

OPENROAD

Einhard wrote: »

I didn't say it helped us now. The profit of something doesn't have to be immediately realised for it to be deemed a postove thing. I won't see the benefit of my pension for another 40 years but surely you wouldn't similarly dismiss pensions?

True and we may well get a return I know you are trying to take the positives out of it but the reality is that any return will be in the long term, and so doesn't help us now, thats all I'm saying.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

This may not happen for 20 years, but it's still to be welcomed.

Thats like saying we should thank burglars for breaking the windows, so we can get new windows. Its called the broken window fallacy, in fact. This is economics 101, your unwillingness to understand even that much says quite a lot about your own ideology. And while we're on the subject, have you any idea what twenty years of inflation will do to any "gains" we might make?

Anita Blow

I've seen this number before in another NYT article a while ago.

IIRC, it includes the total debt of all firms/people in the country. Including non-Irish owned banks and businesses. We have the IFSC which houses quite a lot of foreign banks/firms so their debt is included whereas if they were to default on their debt, it wouldn't have any huge impact on Ireland beyond job losses etc. No huge cost to the exchequer or anything. This is the NYT with it's Anti-European slant trying to get it's readers with a Wow-factor who won't understand how that debt adds up

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

This is economics 101, your unwillingness to understand even that much says quite a lot about your own ideology.

Believing that things are bad enough without us deliberately dismissing any potential positives is an ideology? Which one exactly?

There's a good possibility that we'll recoup some of the money that we invested in the banks, and that will bring down our debt somewhat. Self flagellation is all well and good, but at a certain point it becomes a bit tiresome.

And while we're on the subject, have you any idea what twenty years of inflation will do to any "gains" we might make?

Umm the whole point of investing in stock rather than merely saving your money is to beat inflation. Did you miss that class in Economy 101?

dsmythy

Jaysus, where's The Viper when you need him?

Absurdum

that web looks suspiciously like an elaborate Satanic symbol


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partyatmygaff

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the lead singer of Ladysmith Black Mambazo is urging the rich African nations to cancel Europe's debts.

He wears the coolest looking sunglasses known to man aswell.

I've also heard he's quite crafty with accounting especially when it comes to tax so he may do well in helping Europe's money problems

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

Believing that things are bad enough without us deliberately dismissing any potential positives is an ideology? Which one exactly?

The one that tries to fig leaf this shambles of a government by pointing out that at least the deck chairs on the titanic float.

Still, I guess some people would rather sit there raising a glass to their shiny new window, than go after the burglars.

Einhard wrote: »

There's a good possibility that we'll recoup some of the money that we invested in the banks, and that will bring down our debt somewhat. Self flagellation is all well and good, but at a certain point it becomes a bit tiresome.

Unless you have a crystal ball, you have no idea which way bank shares will go. The banks are already mostly nationalised.

Einhard wrote: »

Umm the whole point of investing in stock rather than merely saving your money is to beat inflation. Did you miss that class in Economy 101?

Thats investment 101, and it goes more like "your investment may go up or down". The whole point of investing in stocks or in anything is to make a profit. Don't think that's the primary motivating factor for the government however.

Abrasax

This guy can help us out of the Web.
Seems he has some experience in this type of matter.

auldwan

Absurdum wrote: »

that web looks suspiciously like an elaborate Satanic symbol

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That would be an inverted pentagram (which isn't exclusively Satanic either). Had to be said.